Dog Pat Part 2

[tcuk]

Okay, a lot of you have tried to help me on this one so I've uploaded my latest attempt to rectify the dog pat. Can any of you see any improvement??? Airforce, 10splayer, jperedo,...can you cast a look please?

It's incredibly hard work to modify a backswing. The kid is totally convinced his racket is not closing and gets demoralised seeing the video playbacks. He can't cope with an extreme change so I'm trying to tweak. It's so hard to see a kid get demoralised and you know darn well there is no easy route to correct the problem. It breaks my heart that I can't help him get thru it more easily. He's very talented and needs the best coaching I can give him.

In my attempts to modify I have tried to make the racket travel in a more continous loop and go beneath the height of the ball on lower shots. There seems to be some marginal improvement and on higher balls the shot seems to work well. Below are the latest attempts to modify the stroke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6Kt8S4cRM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFdO_PGowZg


Compare the above clips to G's slomo forehand, which is the orginal unmodified forehand. Link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_K5TSZlNFI

[nabrug]

Okay, a lot of you have tried to help me on this one so I've uploaded my latest attempt to rectify the dog pat. Can any of you see any improvement??? Airforce, 10splayer, jperedo,...can you cast a look please?

It's incredibly hard work to modify a backswing. The kid is totally convinced his racket is not closing and gets demoralised seeing the video playbacks. He can't cope with an extreme change so I'm trying to tweak. It's so hard to see a kid get demoralised and you know darn well there is no easy route to correct the problem. It breaks my heart that I can't help him get thru it more easily. He's very talented and needs the best coaching I can give him.

In my attempts to modify I have tried to make the racket travel in a more continous loop and go beneath the height of the ball on lower shots. There seems to be some marginal improvement and on higher balls the shot seems to work well. Below are the latest attempts to modify the stroke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6Kt8S4cRM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFdO_PGowZg


Compare the above clips to G's slomo forehand, which is the orginal unmodified forehand. Link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_K5TSZlNFI

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!

Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

[carrerakent]

ouch!

[airforce1]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!
Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Any interestingly harsh take from you, an instructor who can't seem to get one instructor on this site to understand what you are talking about.
Seems you would be very understanding of other coaches not being able to make certain connections at times.

Tcuk, I think maybe it is not so important to eradicate this old swing, but more important to help him to learn to work on the areas where it gives him trouble. Then maybe the stroke may shape itself over time.

[sejsel]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!

Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Well, there's also a tiny little thing called "kinesthetic sense" involved in acquiring a "new skill" or (in this, much harder case) re-learning something that is instilled in ones muscle-memory. Incidentally, this sort of memory is way "stronger" than many other sorts of memory we are as yet familiar with.
But even movement of this complexity (much of it due to the incoming ball moving in many varied ways and speeds) can be broken down to its elementary parts. Everything can be re-learned, if that decision is firm with the coach and the student - this has been done earlier even at pro level, on forehand side, with good and permanent results.

It is well known what amount of correct (movement that is in within the frames of biomechanically "correct" and non-hindering) movement has to be executed in order for this sort of acqusition to happen.

It is question of both methodics and knowledge of technique and applied biomechanics, as well as observing various subtle flaws throughout the execution of the stroke.
Just a word of initial (and very general) advice - when relearning the stroke, it has to be done without kid (student) being rushed by the ball - start outside of court, or at the court, the pace has to be as slow as needed for the kid to execute without a single flaw in the motion. (both in sending the ball and executing the stroke, or even parts of the stroke).
Work has to be meticulous, care and attention for detail in execution throughout the stroke is the key.

In order for game - based approach to be implemented succesfully - it has to be done, IMHO, at much younger age, and earlier stage, if we are talking about serious tennis, and it has to be done correctly from the very beginning.

There are some indications that game-based approach-fixation has actually contributed in many instances to the overall decrease in the technical and overall quality of tennis being taught and played, especially at early junior level.
This has been written by some very serious names in the coaching world.

In this case, that single method or recipe is neither the complete cure nor the complete answer to this particular sort of problem in developing a "sound" player.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense, if not anything else (I won't even mention all kinds of accumulated experiences all over the world in teaching kids and adults over many years) can easily realize that.

[oliensis]

First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do. Have him close the racket face SOONER, like Djoker, so the hitting face is pointing to the back fence on the backswing. Then he won't be able to close any further in that "late-ish" flick that I think you are so troubled by. Also, you could try to get him to keep his elbow high on the backswing, which can sometimes simplify maintaining the hitting structure when going from backswing into the start of the forward swing. (If I remember right, Kafelnikov was an extreme exmaple of the high-elbowed backswing and pretty-well maintained hitting structure on the forehand.)

Second subject: If by game-based learning you mean roughly this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6n0BDGlFhI0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=game-based+learning+tennis&source=bl&ots=By4kYBlILS&sig=pR5Dq8eexjTwRuTDR85JGwovkk8&hl=en&ei=nqeISqJJwqW2B5K83OcM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=game-based%20learning%20tennis&f=false

Well, after studying T'ai Chi (soft Chinese martial art) , Kalarippayatt (Indian weapon-weilding martial art), Tae Kwon Do (hard Korean bare-hand martial art), Hapkido (Korean grappling techniques), and some boxing for a combined 15 years or so, I can only tell you that there are many ways to skin a cat, and do it viciously well.

When I began studying I wondered which style would be superior in a face-to-face fight. Turns out, after many years of study, that the winner would be the one with the best practitioner.

The aim of all arts/sports ("ways" in the Eastern sense) is to integrate the inner and the outer self....and to integrate the integrated self with the universe. (In Freudian terms, we're all looking to resolve the diphasic nature of human psycho-sexual development--we're all trying come to terms with the fact that we are AWARE that we EXIST, and because of the distinction between awareness and existence we are capable of being ANXIOUS about our own existence. Or in simpler terms, we're all trying to get comfortable in our own skins. In Eastern terms, we're looking to dissolve the subject/object distinction and enter into a state of one-ness within the diversit of existence.)

There is no one "way" to do that. There are many "ways" to do that. (Yoga, meditation, martial arts, psychoanalysis, painting, acting, dancing, tennis, tea ceremonies, flower arrangement, calligraphy, bricklaying...even begging for alms may be a "way" if practiced correctly.) And within each of these "ways" there are varieties of paths...some that go "inside out" (beginning with the inner process and working toward the correct form) and some that go "outside in" (beginning with the correct form and working toward the inner process).

Whoever tells you that they have the "one way" (whoever claims to be THE BUDDHA, THE CHRIST, whatever...) is almost certainly lying. Whether that person adheres to a game-based approach to tennis, the belief that "ball quality" is the "whole deal," or that the proper contact point is the whole secret....Or whether that person is telling you that there is only one path to heaven and that all who do not take it are heretics.

What are the skills necessary for tennis? They are legion. And there are innumerable ways to learn each and all of them. And then there are innumerable ways to integrate them. I think any and all of us who learn and teach know that. And most of us try to work in numerous directions from purely technique-based drills to purely objective-based or strategically oriented modalities of learning. Most of us with a brain are trying to work both inside-out and outside-in...trying to work toward integrating all the legion skills required from whatever directions WORK for the individual.

But there are a couple of posters on these boards who would claim to know THE ways to do these things to the preclusion of all the other ways.

To these posters, I would just like to say, WISE UP! Lose your self-importance! Humble yourselves! Join the rest of the human race in recognizing that there are many pathways to the sun, that you and your way are fallible, and that your enthusiasm for the path that you are on should not give you even one moment's sense that you are entitled to believe that your way is superior to anyone else's.

Frankly, to the extent that one is arrogant is also the extent to which one is foolish and risible. It's also the extent to which, in my weaker moments, you give me a royal pain in the ass.

Happy tennis to all!

[carrerakent]

sejsel...i wish i had thought of that...you are so right about kinethestic learning and memory.

there is one thing for sure in my experience...DO NOT tell a kid you are gonna change their technique cause they are doing it wrong. Geez, i can't even get touring pros to listen to that when they can't their strokes the way they want...they'd often rather continue on their blind hopeless path than change.

anyway, i trick my kids and adults. here's an example: i have a kid, good all-round athlete, 17, 6 ft. 4 in, playing tennis only one year. when he sets up to the ball properly and relaxes, he hits a pro ball. very very hard, tons of topspin!

but, on his serve he is trying to serve like Roddick today, Gonzales tomorrow...all of this stuff makes him totally inconsistent and he can't duplicate today's success tomorrow, that came as a result of visualization.

so, i see him trying to swing harder, trying to move his toss around, trying different grips, trying different arm take backs, etc...all of it is getting worse.

so, i have him walk over to the corner and pick up some balls...i ask to look at his racket. then i say....hey, throw those tennis balls over the net by the hopper while i try your racket out. he throws the balls over there with full arm extension over his head and perfect "kinetic chain" mechanics.

then, i DO NOT ask him to serve into the box. (why not...tennis technique thinking would kick in for him) instead i ask him to serve a ball over there at the trash can on the other side of the other court. i tell him that if he can hit it hard enough to move it i will buy him lunch. he tosses the ball in the air, i notice the toss is perfectly where i've been "trying" to get him to toss it, he extends so high up his right side and crushes the ball with the most natural swing i've ever seen except with good touring pros..he almost hits the trash can..

he turns to me with a frown and says, "almost." i then asked, "so, how did that motion feel?" he says, "out of this world powerful". then i explain to him how his left brain trying to hit the ball in a tennis technique fashion has totally taken his body away from his bodies already understood biomechanics. now, go serve and just extend like you already know how. don't use any technique.

i know that's a simple example, but i used his existing kinesthetic memory to achieve what any other form of technique adjustments may have never ever gotten him there.

[tcuk]

I don't mind harsh comments about my work. I am prepared to put my work on the line for all to look at. Be critical, abusive, helpful...I invite all comments. And if some of you have come across a failsafe way of teaching students so horrible technical faults don't creep in let me know. Put any miracle cures online for everyone to see. We could all learn!

Anyone can coach tennis, but it's not easy to do it well with every student that comes along. It's a difficult job to be good at.

BTW, I did a clip which I should have uploaded demonstrating what many of you were looking for in terms of the racket face. As you can see the face is much more open. It's achieved by feeding spoon fed balls with the student taking the racket straight back. Once he tries to incorporate it in a full swing he can't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

[10splayer]

This hurts so much that I have to react. You did not get the hint about education. Please get an education first. Dedication, which I appreciate a lot in you, is not enough. All your information shows that you are not able to end this story in a positive way. This is why people like Bottle have traumas about "teachers".

Focus on an education in the Game Based Approach. Technique is important but only a means. Hitting a ball is about sending the ball. All the information you gave was about the reception of the ball. Important factors in the reception of a ball lie in 1. knowledge about ball trajectories 2. knowledge of the game situation 3. synchronisation with the incoming ball 4. observation of the ball. This last point was also mentioned by CarreraKent. You did not gave any reaction to his suggestion but give me the idea that you are obsessed in changing "your" stroke of this very unfortunate boy. Please find him a qualified teacher!

Sorry I can not put it in an other way.

Nico Mol.

Every time I think I've witnessed the most arrogant, big mouthed, critical of others, know it all tennis pro, a new one comes along, to top the list. You are now the reining king.

Game based approach? Watch the ball? Brilliant!

Anyone who has actually taught the game extensively, knows that technical flaws can creep into the games of even the most talented of students, even while under the watchful eye of the most astute instructors. It's happened to anyone who has taught this game. At least if their honest. I'm quite certain, however, this has never happened to you, nor will the point of this post change your ways. At least, that has been my experience with pros like you.

[uspta146749877]

---->a quote by Oliensis
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do. Have him close the racket face SOONER,
----> it is a very good point,IMHO

[tcuk]

"oliensis
The Backswing & Game-Based Learning
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do."


Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

This was I think 10splayer main concern, and he's right. The kid can't get the shot out in time when rushed or when he has an awkwardly placed ball to deal with. The movement is slightly complex under duress to be able to pull of reliably

This isn't a long-term problem he's had since he started playing tennis. It just seemed to develop quickly when he was practising day in day out with friends. Trying to whip up low balls with topspin seems to be how it developed. Strange how something can get ingrained so quickly and become so hard to coach out!

BTW, if you saw his backhand you'd think I was a great coach. His backhand is a fail-safe, high-quality shot. The irony is I've hardly touched it. He has a naturally backhand that's just developed itself naturally as time's gone on. Of course, when people site what a good shot it is I beam with pride and take full responsibility.:)

[oliensis]

Well, great minds...

Maybe an answer is for him to prepare sooner, and to rip his forehands...to stay aggressive.

One thing I noticed in the video is that his footwork is sort of lazy AFTER he hits the shot. Maybe if he were to be aggressive about RECOVERY footwork that would translate into earlier, aggressvie footwork on forehand preparation, and would change his mindset from defensive to offensive.

Have him watch videos of Federer AFTER he hits the ball. His footwork is almost better then than as he prepares to hit. And it's hard to get scared to hit a shot when your footwork has been determined and offensive while the ball is on the other side of the net.

I saw Zabeleta at the US Open once, and he let out an aggressvie exhale every time the other guy hit the ball. It punctuated his (Z's) split step, the first move and the transition from recovery to preparation. When I get back on my heels and late, it's a helpful cue for changing attitude/footwork.

Food for thought, anyway.



Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

[tcuk]

Oliensis, I agree entirely about his footwork after shots. The boy is an exceptional mover and kind of 'floats'. He needs to capitalize on this.

As for moving quicker and better and this 'affecting his state of mind from defensive to offensive'. I hadn't considered this, thank you. I'll put this into practise. The kid has become frightened to hit forehands and needs to change his mindset.

[carrerakent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6Kt8S4cRM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFdO_PGowZg


Compare the above clips to G's slomo forehand, which is the orginal unmodified forehand. Link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_K5TSZlNFI

tcuk, are you okay with how way out in front of his body he's lunging for contact on the first video here? that seems to take his good set up and body position totally out of the contact point that will help him hit his targets and produce consistent shots.

did you ask him to raise the point of his backswing on the high balls?

and, he's still not even remotely keeping the ball "in the center of his eyes" which further breaks down the stroke from the point of just after the forward swing begins until he's made contact. tons of power and control lost by not finishing the head movement to contact point.

[tcuk]

Carrakent,

Yes the lunge was noted, and no it wasn't ideal. To get what I wanted I was encouraging him to brush up from beneath the height of the ball.

Re high-balls, he tends to fair much better with these. It's the one type of forehand that he hits well and with power so I'm not going to tinker with it just yet.

And yes, where those eyes are going God only knows!

I appreciate your time and observations, Carrakent. Thank you

[carrerakent]

tcuk

i asked about the high ball because if the kid is adjusting the height of his back swing like that on his own, then i think he has a very good kinetic understanding of how to use his body to get out of it what he wants. i consider his position for the high ball a good thing.

have you done any drills with him where you feed and he sets up to hit but doesn't swing and has to watch the ball go by with the ball in the "center" of his eyes and his eyes in the center of his head...aka following the ball with his head like federer, but watch it all the way back to the back fence. then progress on to him following it to where he looks for the ball just behind contact.

of course his contact has to be pulled back to a good spot for him where it's at the end of his extended swing and he's still balanced on contact.

i'd be curious to know how that drill with him would work.

oh, and do not let him look up to his target until after he hears the ball hit the other fence. head stays at contact point that whole time. then the next step is even more interesting....(teaser)

[10splayer]

"oliensis
The Backswing & Game-Based Learning
First of all, after seeing the kid's videos, I still wonder what's so terrible about the backswing. The only thing I see is that maybe it's a little bit complex. Maybe try simplifying the OPPOSITE way from what you think you need to do."


Closing the racket face sooner is exactly what I tried to do in the 'Closed start' clip. At the beginning of the backswing you'll notice the face is more closed than in the original clip. I thought the same as you, that I might get a reverse effect.

A few of you have said, "What's so wrong with the swing, it looks ok". Actually, in practise the shot works fine, but in a match, under tension, he gets scared to hit it, and when he does he's always late.

This was I think 10splayer main concern, and he's right. The kid can't get the shot out in time when rushed or when he has an awkwardly placed ball to deal with. The movement is slightly complex under duress to be able to pull reliably

This isn't a long-term problem he's had since he started playing tennis. It just seemed to develop quickly when he was practising day in day out with friends. Trying to whip up low balls with topspin seems to be how it developed. Strange how something can get ingrained so quickly and become so hard to coach out!

BTW, if you saw his backhand you'd think I was a great coach. His backhand is a fail-safe, high-quality shot. The irony is I've hardly touched it. He has a naturally backhand that's just developed itself naturally as time's gone on. Of course, when people site what a good shot it is I beam with pride and take full responsibility.:)

Correct, and predictably, I like the change. With a stronger grip, the racquet is going to want to close somewhat . In my mind, when, and to what degree, the racquet face closes are important things to note.

As I mentioned in the first thread, your student had the racquet more or less on edge at the top of the backswing, and then continued to close the face all the way through the drop. In other words, he "closed the racquet late" in the backswing. I've found that this can, interfere with the timely set of the hitting arm structure and a quick, almost violent, transition from downswing to foreward swing. Neither of which are good for defense, adjusting, and dealing with the dynamic nature of the game. This was my inquiry/concern.

Admittedly, I'm a bit of simpleton when it comes to backswings. I like someone like Blake as a model. Essentially, as he steps up to the top of the backswing, he closes the racquet face, and then just passively lays it down from there. This is what I stress with my kids. Set the angle of the raquet at the top of the backswing, and then don't screw with it as it drops. (a sooner as opposed to later sort of thing)

I've found this is to be a much, much, more responsive type of backswing. Affords them the ability to defend, adust, hit on the move, and meet their contact point requirements under duress. At least there in with a chance.

I think it's so important to get kids into backswings that allow them to produce shots, from anywhere on the court, under any situation. Closing the racquet face earlier as opposed to later, is simpler in my opinion.

[tcuk]

Thanks, 10splayer. I'm learning a lot here. I'm going to work on the more closed start and see what develops. I'll post clips with the results.

I'm most appreciative of everyone's help. I really am.

[uspta990770809]

Correct, and predictably, I like the change. With a stronger grip, the racquet is going to want to close somewhat . In my mind, when, and to what degree, the racquet face closes are important things to note.

As I mentioned in the first thread, your student had the racquet more or less on edge at the top of the backswing, and then continued to close the face all the way through the drop. In other words, he "closed the racquet late" in the backswing. I've found that this can, interfere with the timely set of the hitting arm structure and a quick, almost violent, transition from downswing to foreward swing. Neither of which are good for defense, adjusting, and dealing with the dynamic nature of the game. This was my inquiry/concern.

Admittedly, I'm a bit of simpleton when it comes to backswings. I like someone like Blake as a model. Essentially, as he steps up to the top of the backswing, he closes the racquet face, and then just passively lays it down from there. This is what I stress with my kids. Set the angle of the raquet at the top of the backswing, and then don't screw with it as it drops. (a sooner as opposed to later sort of thing)

I've found this is to be a much, much, more responsive type of backswing. Affords them the ability to defend, adust, hit on the move, and meet their contact point requirements under duress. At least there in with a chance.

I think it's so important to get kids into backswings that allow them to produce shots, from anywhere on the court, under any situation. Closing the racquet face earlier as opposed to later, is simpler in my opinion.

Stotty,
I've been following this thread right from the start and I think 10splayer has a really important point here. Obviously, I'm especially interested because it is similar to a problem I'm having with the subject of John's Your Strokes article last month, Amber's forehand. It might be good for you to reread what John had to say in that article, especially about how early the "hitting structure" has to be established. Although some of the pro clips show the racket face continuing to close on the downswing, almost all of them have the racket going back the other way and opening up to just slightly closed before that downswing is completed (the beginning of the true forward swing). John's recommendation for Amber was to try to set the racket as vertical as possible in that downswing (not easy to accomplish even in static positions). 10s player is suggesting something slightly different here, but similar in saying the closing of the face has to be completed before the downswing starts.

The thing that bothers me most about G's swing is that there is a separation between the downswing and the forward swing. It seems to me he swings the racket from the unit turn position to a position back and down and then reverses the momentum of the racket head as he swings the racket forward in a separate motion level or slightly up through the ball. I want to see the momentum of that downward swing incorporated into the forward swing so he gets the benefit of the gravity drop as well as the benefit of the energy he's put into swinging the racket down. That might also get him to swing the head a little lower and give him a chance to square up the racket head before he swings forward to the ball. Please check my articles out and see my drill, "Angela's Asteroids". You'll find it half way through the July 2008 article. I think it is really important to have the racket head move in a continuous, and hopefully, accelerating motion to the ball from the end of the unit turn or whenever the actual swing at the ball starts.

The other thing I've noticed working on Amber's forehand is I really like to use the image of Sampras's early forehand when he was 10 with the old style straight finish as a stepping stone to feeling what it is like to hit through the ball and not just go around it. Executing the wrap without that solid "hit through the ball" feel is missing the point. I know Amber is not going to end up hitting a 60's style forehand with the racket pointing to the opposite fence across the net, but executing that motion sure goes a long way to getting her to feel what it is like to hit the ball solid.

One of my main points in teaching is that the kids have to feel what the good shot is and want to recreate that good feeling because they know intrinsically and can clearly feel that that is better, not because I tell them it is. Some get there with words, more with visual clues and some only by experiencing the correct motion, but somewhere along the line the light has to go on illuminating the message in their heads that "that" (whatever "that" is) is the right way for them to do "that". Until that happens, you can't even begin the battle of good repetitions against old habits (not an easy battle either; victory is by no means assured).

don

[uspta146749877]

Did u get any response from John Yandell about uploading videos
to Tennisplayer.net?

[airforce1]

The thing that bothers me most about G's swing is that there is a separation between the downswing and the forward swing. It seems to me he swings the racket from the unit turn position to a position back and down and then reverses the momentum of the racket head as he swings the racket forward in a separate motion level or slightly up through the ball. I want to see the momentum of that downward swing incorporated into the forward swing so he gets the benefit of the gravity drop as well as the benefit of the energy he's put into swinging the racket down. That might also get him to swing the head a little lower and give him a chance to square up the racket head before he swings forward to the ball.

don, well stated above, as this was my concern as well.

[uspta146749877]

We still have a very general question open: how to deal to with low
balls in a case of a semi-western grip?
julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873

[johnyandell]

I swamped guys, in cincy filming and just can't deal for a while. wait til you see what we're filming btw. i will address the upload might take a while though

[tcuk]

Ok here is a clip with G's racket face closed as the unit turn commences. Oliensis and I were hoping for a reverse effect from doing this whereby the racket might be less dog pat at the transition from backswing to forward swing. But we are still left with that awkward transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo

I can get what I want with basket fed ball where G simply draws his racket straight back. As you can see the angle of the racket face is a more orthodox. He also brushes up better too. Sorry the clip is not in slomo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

The problem is he can't achieve this racket face angle with a full swing commencing from the unit turn.

Airforce's main concern is in G's transition from backswing to forward swing too. And it is a puzzle. The forearm twists and the wrist is kind of cocks up (and it does on both low, medium, and high balls) instead of "laying back passively", as one forum member put it.

The problem is how can I get him to achieve this "laying back" state.

In answer to some of the other comments:

1. Yes I am going to re-read the Amber Park article. Though her dog pat looks different to G's. But yes I will study every word.

2. No, John Yandell hasn't got back to me re uploading clips directly. The bloke must be bloody busy running this site. It's popular! I'll wait to hear and let you know. It seems some can upload clips while some can't.

3. uspta990770809 I've printed off all your comments and will work thru them. Thanks so much for your input.

[uspta146749877]

Ok here is a clip with G's racket face closed as the unit turn commences. Oliensis and I were hoping for a reverse effect from doing this whereby the racket might be less dog pat at the transition from backswing to forward swing. But we are still left with that awkward transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo

I can get what I want with basket fed ball where G simply draws his racket straight back. As you can see the angle of the racket face is a more orthodox. He also brushes up better too. Sorry the clip is not in slomo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httyprjPqw

The problem is he can't achieve this racket face angle with a full swing commencing from the unit turn.

Airforce's main concern is in G's transition from backswing to forward swing too. And it is a puzzle. The forearm twists and the wrist is kind of cocks up (and it does on both low, medium, and high balls) instead of "laying back passively", as one forum member put it.

The problem is how can I get him to achieve this "laying back" state.

In answer to some of the other comments:

1. Yes I am going to re-read the Amber Park article. Though her dog pat looks different to G's. But yes I will study every word.

2. No, John Yandell hasn't got back to me re uploading clips directly. The bloke must be bloody busy running this site. It's popular! I'll wait to hear a let you know. It seems some can upload clips while some can't.

3. uspta990770809 I've printed off all your comments and will work thru them. Thanks so much for your input.

Hi,
I do NOT understand why do u expect positive results so quickly?
It is a serious question.
What is a balance of a racket used?
Problems maybe partially related to :
1.strength of forearms
2.some problems with muscle memory-
he practices with you,he does A
he practices with his friends,he does B etc

[tcuk]

uspta146749877

I don't expect a quick result. I'm a patient fellow who's prepared to wait. It's the path to correction I can't seem to find for my student. Everything I try never quite works...something needs to click.

I came to the forum looking for tips, teaching cues, advice, ideas to try, and to connect with coaches who have battled the same problem (and hopefully suceeded). It's been an amazing experience: some coaches are practical, some turn the game into a science, some say let nature take it's course. On balance, I tend to lead toward the practical side, but all the philosophies seem to have their merits. The science of the game is certainly starting to interest me more than it used to.

Your point number 2 is certainly very relevant.

[uspta146749877]

uspta146749877

I don't expect a quick result. I'm a patient fellow who's prepared to wait. It's the path to correction I can't seem to find for my student. Everything I try never quite works...something needs to click.

I came to the forum looking for tips, teaching cues, advice, ideas to try, and to connect with coaches who have battled the same problem (and hopefully suceeded). It's been an amazing experience: some coaches are practical, some turn the game into a science, some say let nature take it's course. On balance, I tend to lead toward the practical side, but all the philosophies seem to have their merits. The science of the game is certainly starting to interest me more than it used to.

Your point number 2 is certainly very relevant.
you should think how to implement point #2.
Slowing down feeds should be considered too.
Doing visuals in slow motion should help too.
Please read a pragraph entitled grip
of
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/rick_macci/starting_kids_right_forehand/starting_kids_right_forehand.html
PS Friends call me julian :)

[carrerakent]

tcuk.

i sent the links to the videos to my coach/mentor to see what he says. i told him to look beyond the obvious that the boy is too close to the ball and he's not looking at the ball...i figure my coach will say that we are all pretty silly for trying to make changes until you fix those two critical elements. i will agree if he says that. if he doesn't, i just did. : )

[tcuk]

uspta146749877

Thanks for the link to the grip article. My student is more semi-western than full-western, so I have no concerns here. I did experiment changing him to an eastern grip to correct his problem. It made no difference. He just twists his arm more to get into the dog pat position. That's how rooted the problem is.

Yes, I basket feed, drop feed, and every slow method of feeding you can think of. And we do loads of reps.

Yes, hitting when out of the coach's sight is a major problem for all of us. Spending two hours a week in a closed coaching environment then another 8 hours playing with friends can be counter productive. I need to figure out what to do here, but the likely outcome will be for me to take him out of the game for a month and keep him in a purely coached environment.

Carrerakent,

I will await you mentor's comments with interest.

[oliensis]

Here's another thought, FWIW.
In this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYWr07tq6yo
I notice that the left arm, after reaching across on the unit turn, opens up along w/ his left shoulder before pulling across. It's during that action that you're getting the hitch in the backswing. Both his "wings" (so to speak) open up, dispersing some of the potential energy built up in the unit turn.

One way to address smoothing the transition from backswing to swing might be to get him to keep the left hand across the line of the ball for longer...to delay opening the left shoulder. The way I think of it is that I want to keep my left shoulder ACROSS the line of the ball, at 1:00 or 2:00 where 12:00 is the line of the ball (further to the right than the line of the ball on righty forehand) as long as possible.

Another way might be to get him to imitate various pros' backswings (e.g. Del Potro) just for fun. No pressure. Let's fool around w/ this for laughs...can you hit a forehand like Del Potro, like Federer, like Agassi, like Nadal (if you have the courage). See if engaging his kid/fun/goofy/imaginitive/intuitive side kicks a different kinaesthetic sense into gear.

[carrerakent]

Mr. O... amen on keeping the shoulder turn longer and delaying the opening.

[oliensis]

Carrera,
Here's an interesting question to ponder.

In the Federe '09 stroke archive, I've just gone through all the forehands, in the "center" section at:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html

and, honestly, I don't love what I see there, esp. compared to the earlier Federer stroke archive. Why? Because in the '09 archive he so often falls away from the ball as/after he hits it. In the earlier archive that happens some, but much more often his movement is into the ball, through the ball, and then back after the centifugal force of his swing has carried him forward and around.

Let's assume for the moment that you're right about Fed's motivations, that he would, if possible, just about always hit an extended/straight-arm forehand. And that part of his genius is being able to shift the axis of vertical rotation from right hip, to center, to left hip as a last-second adjustment in order to accomodate less-than-perfect spacing on his setup into the forehand...which shifting of axis allows him to hit the more extended forehand relatively more often.

Given that on a given shot he has moved too close to the ball and that he has to make a last-second adjustment to accomodate this "in reality" spacing he may have two choices: 1) shift the axis of rotation to the right hip and fall away from the shot w/out really getting his movement through the ball (as he does so often in '09) or 2) double bend the arm to adjust for being too close to the ball, but keep his movement through the ball.

Obviously, in your view, neither is optimal, as he "should" have gauged the incoming ball better. But tennis is a game in which how one adjusts to sub-optimal situations is probably more important than how one performs optimally. In my view, "it depends" (on innumerable factors).

Wondering whether you think adjustment #1 above is always or almost always preferable to adjustment #2.

[tcuk]

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA


How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about. :)

[oliensis]

Nice forehand!
The kid must be really talented to be able to feel where the racket face is using a continental grip after having grooved a SW grip. It would take me a long time to re-groove my old '70s continental grip after switching to SW when I started playing again in the '90s.

I like his backswing, and I think the sync-ing of when he opens his left side is better.
When you go back to his SW grip it will be interesting to see if he goes back to opening his left side early. (That seems like it's eased up in this clip.)

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html


I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

One more thing: Had my 14-yr old daughter on the court this week. She played middle-school tennis last year. Will be a freshman this year. She spends more time in dance class than on the tennis court.

Shared the "contact point" image w/ her and it was moderately helpful. But when I worked w/ her on getting the left arm across the line of the ball and then "counter-rotating" in sync, she began hitting her forehand w/ some real authority for the first time.

[uspta146749877]

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA


How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about. :)
Hi,
you should get somehow John Yandell inro this discussion quicker.
For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-
it comes with a long painful experience.
I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

[carrerakent]

Mr. O,

how about I respond in the "double bend" thread since this related and that way tcuk can stay on track with this thread?

[carrerakent]

On a related subject, Have you guys seen this?

http://www.tennis-in-the-zone.com/Step-1.html


I've found it constructive in terms of establishing clear contact points especially.

Very interesting. That is very similar to the method my coach uses. He teaches that the first phase of learning as a tennis player is to be a goalie, not a racket swinger or ball striker. And the part about basically giving tasks that "trick" the player into shifting to what he calls parallel mode, we see it as left brain vs right brain function.

[airforce1]

Hi,

For the record i believe continental is NOT a solution even for a month-

I wish I am wrong about the continental grip.

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

[carrerakent]

I agree with the above parts. Yes, the racket face never hits certain points now, but it is what the hand and arm are doing that is important, right??
which did not really change, right?

continental will most likely lead to all kind of compensations for a hard hitter like this kid.

i totally agree with airforce1 about compensations. would hate to see them start creeping up.

i think his first few videos were much more of a good basis for future success. he looked more natural for his body.

[uspta990770809]

Oliensis, this may interest you.

I moved G's grip round to a continental. This is how far round the grip he had to go for the racket face to open up during the swing. And if you look carefully he's doing his best to get into the dog pat position, but can't obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPXx0v8oRA


How about if I make G use this grip for a month? He can actually play quite well with it! I could then move it back and hope the dog pat muscle memory has been forgotten?

Don, if you are reading this post, how is it going with Amber? Are you suceeding?

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about. :)

We've been working once a week for about a month and we are starting to see some real progress in the shot. I'm still not happy about the presence of the "dog pat", but the racket is getting into hitting earlier and she is starting to hit through the ball with real pace. I'll try to get some video up here later today or tomorrow.
don

[carrerakent]

Carrerakent, Yes, I know he's not looking long enough at the ball. I can't overload the kid just now. He has enough to think about. :)

tcuk, but how can these changes work if he's not more aware of where his contact point should be and what the ball is doing? forgive me if i already said this, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

try this if you want: have a player stand at the other baseline. feed a ball from your baseline and have the player put his racket where he/she thinks contact should be for the ball that is in flight to them as quickly as possible. (this is designed of course to get them to recognize the velocity, trajectory, and spin of the ball early on.)

tell the student that once he/she determines the contact point they cannot move their racket, but are to let it simply hit the strings or miss. 100% of your experienced tennis player students will move the racket at the last second if they perceive they read it wrong originally. a total beginner will probably not move their racket.

what is my point? tennis players are taught to adjust at the last second and as most everyone on here advocates that bending the arm in is an okay adjustment, tennis players are not able to read balls as well...because they can always just adjust at that last second. i would think that accuracy, power and spin are surely sacrificed with last second adjustments whether they are in shortening the arm or lengthening it.

if you use this drill and keep encouraging them to read as early as possible and trust their decision, but mostly, they HAVE TO let the ball miss the racket if they are wrong. i think you will be impressed over time with how quickly they start seeing the ball better, bending their arm much less and every aspect of their game will improve.

[tcuk]

I understand everyone's concerns about a temporary switch to the continental grip, but experimenting with the continental grip did reveal a lot about muscle memory. If you watch the clip again you'll see his arm fighting like mad to get in the dog pat position even though the grip won't allow it. It just highlights what coaches are up against with problems like this.

I can tell you for certain what the biggest problem is a coaching scenario like this: The student cannot feel/visualize what his arm/hand is doing when it's behind his body. He is convinced he is doing what is asked of him and can't believe his eyes when he sees the video playbacks. It's the transition point from backswing to forward swing that is the most difficult for him to visualize and carry out.

The kid is away for 10 days now. When he returns I'm going to drop feed him hundreds of balls with his racket drawn back ready and the racket face more open. This he can definitely do. Hopefully he will be able to incorporate it into his full swing over time.

I understand the preparation model laid out in the Amber Park model and have re-read the article. I feel Amber's problem is more severe; she tends to shove the ball. G's dog pat he can presently get away with at the moment (he wins lots of matches) and some coaches even suggest leave it be. I'm not so sure. I haven't seen a full dog pat used on the tour yet, has anyone?

carrerakent,

I understand the points you are making, but how is it going to resolve the dog pat. If I set up a perfect contact point by drop feeding a ball that racket still ends up in the dog position.

[carrerakent]

Tcuk, I think maybe it is not so important to eradicate this old swing, but more important to help him to learn to work on the areas where it gives him trouble. Then maybe the stroke may shape itself over time.

Tcuk,

I agree with airforce1 ...but it is accompanied with my belief that once he becomes aware of his contact point and doesn't bend the arm at the last second when he realizes he judged it wrong then you can shorten his back swing, so to speak, and get the racket face more behind the ball...meaning you can draw a straight line between the racket head, the ball, and the intended target. (but still getting even more shoulder turn to help with is lack of strength...that too should help things).That should tone down the dog pat as you call it and also eliminate the delay. i am sorry that i didn't explain my point on this better earlier. in part i realize more now in what you are trying to accomplish.

good luck

[tcuk]

Thanks for all your comments and observations, Carrerakent. You've certainly been a lively and active contributor to the Dog Pat threads.

It's been a very active thread and the help I've had from fellow coaches has been impressive. I've been insulted here and there too, but what can I expect when I put my work on show in a forum:)

As I mentioned earlier, my student is away for 10 days but as soon as he returns I will be getting back to work. I will be going all out to try get his racket face more where it should be. And yes a bit more space between him and ball wouldn't come amiss, Carrerakent:).

It could be that the dog pat may prove too probelmatic to get rid off and the kid may have to live with it. As Airforce, Oliensis, Jperedo have all suggested if the worst comes to the worst we can try working round his current technique by helping him to deal with the type of balls he finds most tricky: wide balls and fast balls. He could perhaps learn to adapt in these areas.

Oddly enough, he hits high (slow) midcourt balls well with his dog pat technique - an asset in any standard of tennis.

I'm keen to find out how Don is getting on with Amber Park. He's about a month ahead of me, but Amber only sees Don once a week. I see G 3 to 4 times per week. I also have the option to place G in a completely 'closed coaching environment'.

I will post the conclusion of the Dog Pat - successful or otherwise - in a seperate thread in a month or two. I will upload clips too.

In the mean time, this thread remains open to all to contribute.

[10splayer]

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls, as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I did, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what helps change the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, palm down, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excercise is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.

[tcuk]

10splayer, Now that is a very interesting and you've explained it well. I've re-watched the video clips and see exactly what you mean. God, I'm blind sometimes! Amazing how I can watch something a 100 times yet not work it out.

I'll put your theories to the test as soon as G returns.

[uspta990770809]

As Airforce and Don have pointed out, the arm stalls as the loop bottoms out. Couldn't agree more. Also, as Don points out, "the forearm is moving in the wrong direction as it nears the bottom of the swing". Although he explains this more eloquently than I do, this has always been my position.

In my opinion, this is why the arm stalls.

As I've mentioned before, with the stronger grips, I see the backswing as nothing more than a closed to open system. the racquet is going to naturally close somewhat in the backswing, (this effect can be enhanced by pronating the forearm slightly) This requires a counter rotation (external rotation of upper arm, and supination of the forearm) to open up the racquet face and set up the the hitting arm structure. Most all forehands, work this way in varying degrees. At least, from what I've seen.

Others may disagree, but I believe this supination is what turns the downward momentum of the backswing into a forward motion. In other words, this is what changes the direction of the swing. As such, in terms of fluidity, the timing of this move is critical. in the boys case, he simply is not reversing the forearm soon enough, and the arm drags or stalls. In fact he's continuing to close the face even more, even as the arm should be rotating towards a supine position.

Tcuk, stole this drill from Doug King, I think, and believe it is applicable in this situation.. Have G hold a plastic cup half filled with water as if he has arrived at the top of the backswing. As he starts to lower the cup, and near the bottom of the downswing, have him spill the water backwards, which will simulate a supinating move. (exactly opposite of the way he is currently rotating his forearm)

Have him take the empty cup, and again move up to the top of the backswing with his hand on top, and the closed end of the cup facing forward. have him again lower the cup, and then rotate the cup so the open end is facing forward as he nears the bottom of the loop. Show him how when he "flips the cup" the elbow draws in and starts to move forward or "lead" even as the hand is rotated back.

Shadow swing with the racquet using the same principle. Racquet face partially, or fully closed at the top of the backswing. Lower the hitting structure, and then have him rotate the butt cap toward the right net post, as he gets close to the bottom of the downswing. Again show him how the elbow has moved from the back of the structure to the front of the structure. Have him take note of how the racquet head has rotated back and down. I would have him work on this manually until he gets the feel of these critical positons.

I really hope this helps Tcuk.


P.S. The Angela's asteroids excersice is so money. Have G do this for 10 min every practice, and see if he doesn't quickly realize how to use momentum and the weight of the racquet head to aid in the redirection of the swing.

I love the drill with the cup. And I'm so glad to hear someone actually tried and appreciates "Angela's Asteroids". Now let's see if I can attach these files. They are so big in the 210FPS mode.

I'll first try to attach the updates of the two views John used in the article, and then the actual original files he used. You can look at them side by side in QuickTime.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference when you look at the video, but the stroke is definitely changeing. So that tells me a very small difference in what we see in the high speed video can make a big change in the effectiveness of the stroke. It's a long way from where I want it, but extension through the ball is much better and she is starting to get below the ball a little better. The dog pat is only marginally reduced if at all, but she thinks she has changed it a lot. I do think the face is squareing up a little sooner. CK would be pleased to see the contact is more in front and the arm somewhat more extended. I just want to see the elimination of the shortening and bending as she starts to swing forward.

So let's see if I can load it. I got the clips all just under 5MB, but that is still a lot.

They should load by the MaxFilesize limits, but I can't get anything in. Sorry, it will have to wait until John gets free from Cincy.
don
PS I'll try to learn how to upload the files to youtube. I don't think it's that hard, but I've never done it.

[10splayer]

10splayer, Now that is a very interesting and you've explained it well. I've re-watched the video clips and see exactly what you mean. God, I'm blind sometimes! Amazing how I can watch something a 100 times yet not work it out.

I'll put your theories to the test as soon as G returns.

Well, thanks, but I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I may be wrong about this. And it wouldn't be the first time. Just my opinion.

Taught awhile now. And one characteristic I've found in all the great pro's i've had the priviledge to work with, is a desire and work ethic to do the very best for there clients. You have this!

I know G will be fine.

[airforce1]

tcuk, did you get my pm?

[tcuk]

I got your PM, Airforce. Thanks for that and I'll PM you soon.

Don, I had to learn to use youtube to post clips. It's very easy. Just sign up for an account and upload.

[uspta146749877]

I love the drill with the cup. And I'm so glad to hear someone actually tried and appreciates "Angela's Asteroids". Now let's see if I can attach these files. They are so big in the 210FPS mode.

I'll first try to attach the updates of the two views John used in the article, and then the actual original files he used. You can look at them side by side in QuickTime.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference when you look at the video, but the stroke is definitely changeing. So that tells me a very small difference in what we see in the high speed video can make a big change in the effectiveness of the stroke. It's a long way from where I want it, but extension through the ball is much better and she is starting to get below the ball a little better. The dog pat is only marginally reduced if at all, but she thinks she has changed it a lot. I do think the face is squareing up a little sooner. CK would be pleased to see the contact is more in front and the arm somewhat more extended. I just want to see the elimination of the shortening and bending as she starts to swing forward.

So let's see if I can load it. I got the clips all just under 5MB, but that is still a lot.

They should load by the MaxFilesize limits, but I can't get anything in. Sorry, it will have to wait until John gets free from Cincy.
don
PS I'll try to learn how to upload the files to youtube. I don't think it's that hard, but I've never done it.
using youtube is a better bet

[uspta990770809]

Okay. I think I got it up.
Here are 2 of the clips John used in the "Your Strokes" article last month cut to the part he included and 2 more clips of the same views taken this last Tuesday.

On youtube, the tags are:

AP FhRear 4 28 09cut
AP FhDS HS 5 12 09cut
AP Fh Rear HS 8 18 09cut
AP FhDS HS 8 18 09cut

the straight links are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVOiCGEWc3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pXOdkHTq0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3V5htOCxDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

Hope that works. Not that bad at all... if I did it right!
don

[uspta990770809]

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don

[tcuk]

Don,

Thanks for the clips and letting me know where you are with Amber to date. I can see significant improvement.

Amber's dog pat was more extreme than G's and you had further to go to achieve correction. She was almost shoving the ball. They now seem in a similar position, but Amber is perhaps in her hitting position sooner. I need to download your clips from youtube somehow and make a side-by-side comparision.

They both still have that awkward transition from backward to forward swing.

When G comes back I'm going to compile all the workable ideas I've received from other coaches on Tennisplayer and set about trying to resolve the problem. Extreme dog pats are very limiting to players in given situations and need changing.

I'll be in touch and will post clips...any breakthroughs and you'll be the first to know.

[uspta146749877]

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don
Don,
a question about the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

do you plan to work on stance a bit in future?

[uspta146749877]

This does a great job of showing the increased extension and it is really easy. But I like to have the ability to go through frame by frame and especially side by side in Quicktime or in a piece of software I have for Windows called V1Home ($40 to do side by side synchronised playback, but only in Windows). I like the fact we can download TP's clips and put them into our own side by side analysis and comparison.

If someone knows how I can go frame by frame in youtube (besides trying to stop and start the player), please post it.

But it is a great resoursce for putting stuff up. And I have a lot of video of my students. Some great before and afters.
don
I am hoping that if John would help deposit videos
on www.tennisplayer.net
we will be able to open Quicktime on a video and go frame by frame

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

[uspta990770809]

Don,
a question about the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

do you plan to work on stance a bit in future?

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don

[uspta990770809]

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don

I haven't been able to upload the full slomo clips (over 100MB), but I was able to get the 10 and 18MB regular speed full clips up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocH6xXf_3mQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZptrgbjNQw

Learned about youtube and Facebook today. Interesting. I have to figure out why it wouldn't load the larger files. Perhaps I need to go to Quicktime first, and then to youtube for the 210FPS footage. Tried with the raw AVI's and it worked for the smaller 30 FPS clips, but not for the bigger slomo files. Is it the size or the 210 FPS. Anyone know?

hope you enjoy the context of the stroke here.
don

[uspta990770809]

I finally got the video up of her "before" we started on Feb 1, 2009. No "dog pat", but she was swinging way around. The "dog pat" seems to have been a compensation for cutting that backswing down. I think it points to the fact that I need to get her back to getting the racket a little more inside before she swings forward. That is: she has the shaft of the racket pointed slightly to the rear deuce corner instead of straight back or slightly to the ad corner side as she drops the racket head down. Could this be a key to the problem?

don

the link is

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTennisDC#play/all/uploads-all/0/VERu5UJmMU0

[tcuk]

Don,

I received the clips via email, thanks.

I see you have uploaded some clips in 'real time' too. It's nice to see these as well as the slow motion clips. The real life pace and racket speed is handy to see.

[airforce1]

I finally got the video up of her "before" we started on Feb 1, 2009. No "dog pat", but she was swinging way around. The "dog pat" seems to have been a compensation for cutting that backswing down. I think it points to the fact that I need to get her back to getting the racket a little more inside before she swings forward. That is: she has the shaft of the racket pointed slightly to the rear deuce corner instead of straight back or slightly to the ad corner side as she drops the racket head down. Could this be a key to the problem?

don

the link is

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTennisDC#play/all/uploads-all/0/VERu5UJmMU0

don, isn't the key to why her backswing is sooo wrapped back,
that her entire swing is done with her arm behind the plane of her shoulders?
sort of dragging everything around..

[uspta990770809]

don, isn't the key to why her backswing is sooo wrapped back,
that her entire swing is done with her arm behind the plane of her shoulders?
sort of dragging everything around..

This video was the "before" picture. I had not given Amber any lessons when we took these shots. Something I do whenever I start with someone. (Click on the 8/18 views right next to this on the youtube site for the current stroke.) And I think you are right, the arm is so far behind her shoulders all she is doing is pulling. It seems my getting her to modify her backswing has gotten her into pushing a little bit and created the closed-face problems. I'm following all the thoughts in these posts and I think one of the reasons we are still having problems is although I got her to correct the length of the backswing a little bit, the racket is pointed off to the right (deuce corner) at the end of the backswing and she should really have the racket head more inside with the butt of the racket pointed at the ball a little earlier. I think this is related to the difficulty in getting the face back to vertical. I'm wondering if I should have used some other approach to get her to shorten that backswing, but I felt I needed to shorten that backswing and get her arm back into the plane of her shoulders as you say.

What do you think?

don

[tcuk]

Don,

Shouldn't the focus of attention be on the angle of the racket face, period? Get the angle of the racket up 15 degrees and the rest will take care of itself.

I downloaded a side view of Federer hitting a forehand from the high speed archive and played it side-by-side to G's. It all becomes crystal clear once you do a comparision like that.

You can close the racket face a lot on the way to striking the ball - like Federer - but you can never close it completely flat, otherwise you get an Amber or a G, where the gravity drop (the bottom part of the loop) gets lost.

[airforce1]

Okay. I think I got it up.
Here are 2 of the clips John used in the "Your Strokes" article last month cut to the part he included and 2 more clips of the same views taken this last Tuesday.

On youtube, the tags are:

AP FhRear 4 28 09cut
AP FhDS HS 5 12 09cut
AP Fh Rear HS 8 18 09cut
AP FhDS HS 8 18 09cut

the straight links are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVOiCGEWc3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pXOdkHTq0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3V5htOCxDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zFg-Dr3wM

Hope that works. Not that bad at all... if I did it right!
don

Even in the above vids, the first thing I noticed was how the shoulders started, then drug the hitting arm. I do agree it was maybe worse in the before vid.

I believe this comes from over concern of early racket speed, especially in kids who are weak. This can lead to compensations such as we see and be tough on the timing as well. Focusing on slower prep and more speed later into the ball should help.
I mentioned this to tcuk in a pm, but don't think he got it yet.

[uspta990770809]

Even in the above vids, the first thing I noticed was how the shoulders started, then drug the hitting arm. I do agree it was maybe worse in the before vid.

I believe this comes from over concern of early racket speed, especially in kids who are weak. This can lead to compensations such as we see and be tough on the timing as well. Focusing on slower prep and more speed later into the ball should help.
I mentioned this to tcuk in a pm, but don't think he got it yet.

"Concern over early racket speed" is a great way to put it. The kids are trying to get the racket up to high speed faster than they can do it instantaneously and they end up jerking and pulling the head away from the ball. However, I think I have to find a different way to tell it to an 11 year old. But for me, that hits it right on the nail head.

And Stotty, I think the racket face verticality is paramount, but I'm wondering if I caused the problem by forcing her to limit the big backswing. So as John mentioned, I think I need to get the angle of the racket shaft coming into the shot a little more inside. I'm a huge believer that "all" shots are hit inside out (relative to the intended line of the shot) or at least should be with very few exceptions. That's hard to do if the racket head is outside that line (like in Roddick's backhand, at least his old one.)

don

[airforce1]

"Concern over early racket speed" is a great way to put it. The kids are trying to get the racket up to high speed faster than they can do it instantaneously and they end up jerking and pulling the head away from the ball. However, I think I have to find a different way to tell it to an 11 year old. But for me, that hits it right on the nail head.

don

thanks Don, finding the right words can be the key sometimes. Now you get to find the right ones for your student : )

[uspta990770809]

thanks Don, finding the right words can be the key sometimes. Now you get to find the right ones for your student : )

Airforce,
Is that kind of like pilots trusting they will build enough speed by the end of the runway?
don

[10splayer]

Can anyone download the first video of Roddick in the high speed video archive? Not the 2.0 version.

[airforce1]

Airforce,
Is that kind of like pilots trusting they will build enough speed by the end of the runway?
don

yes, LoL, probably something like that. It can be hard enough for us as coaches to communicate as we have seen on the forum. It really shows how tough it can be to communicate with students.

[uspta990770809]

Can anyone download the first video of Roddick in the high speed video archive? Not the 2.0 version.

10splayer, if you mean this one

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

I had no problem downloading it. Good example of the dogpat, but getting back towards vertical coming forward. I wonder if the fact that it is still a little too closed fits with why he doesn't hit it as big as some of the other big boys even though he is actually more physically imposing than most of them.

don

[tcuk]

Don,

I think dog pat is only an issue when it is prolonged - like Amber and G - and the transition from backswing to forward becomes hampered as result.


10splayer, if you mean this one

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

I had no problem downloading it. Good example of the dogpat, but getting back towards vertical coming forward. I wonder if the fact that it is still a little too closed fits with why he doesn't hit it as big as some of the other big boys even though he is actually more physically imposing than most of them.

don

[uspta146749877]

Julian,
We've been focused on the full swing through the ball and getting the face squared up a little sooner, but I actually like the stance she is using here. Not particularly pleased with the way the weight stayed back, but I like a stance a little open like that. I'll try to get the full clips up on youtube so you can see the full stroke in context.

What do you see?
don
Don,
I would prefer more open stance
please compare with
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

[carrerakent]

Don,
I would prefer more open stance
please compare with
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v1/andy_roddick_v1.html?ARFHCenterFront-0240409-0001.mov

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

[uspta146749877]

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow
Hi,
you may discuss pluses of open stance with your coach,
especially recovery benefits.
Some digging in posts of username julian would probably
help as well-the topic above was discussed through last three years.
Some numerical data are available to compare open stance and neutral one.
Please see
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/John_Yandell/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances.html


Switching gears:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKjYHwbZns&NR=1

is worth watching as well-the middle part

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

[uspta990770809]

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

Carrerakent, I'm not advocating moving the weight forward during the forward stroke. I think 90 to 95% of the weight transfer(if there is one...in a square stance) has to take place as the downward action of the racket is completed and before the head starts its true forward motion. I'm afraid I have to study a little further what you are saying about the hip-ball distance, but certainly, I want my students hitting the ball further in front, but with some respect for the laws of diminishing returns at the limits.

PS. As I was hitting balls on the driving range yesterday, I was thinking about your arguments for increased distance and the thought that you use longer clubs to hit the ball farther. Of course, the ball is just sitting there.

don

[uspta146749877]

:mad::mad:Carrerakent, I'm not advocating moving the weight forward during the forward stroke. I think 90 to 95% of the weight transfer(if there is one...in a square stance) has to take place as the downward action of the racket is completed and before the head starts its true forward motion. I'm afraid I have to study a little further what you are saying about the hip-ball distance, but certainly, I want my students hitting the ball further in front, but with some respect for the laws of diminishing returns at the limits.

PS. As I was hitting balls on the driving range yesterday, I was thinking about your arguments for increased distance and the thought that you use longer clubs to hit the ball farther. Of course, the ball is just sitting there.

don
Are you allowed to use LONGER clubs in golf?

[uspta990770809]

Hi,
you may discuss pluses of open stance with your coach,
especially recovery benefits.
Some digging in posts of username julian would probably
help as well-the topic above was discussed last three years.
Some numerical data are available to compare open stance and neutral one.
Please see
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/John_Yandell/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances/Comparing_Open_Closed_Stances.html


Switchin gears:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKjYHwbZns&NR=1

is wotth watching as well-the middle part

julian mielniczuk
usptapro 27873
Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
juliantennis@comcast.net

When the open stance forehand first presented itself and became dominant in pro tennis, I would say the "generally accepted" opinion was that you could hit more topspin and power with the open stance stroke. From the preponderance of research that has been produced since then (& obviously not with a stroke like Federer's) there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. The reason I want my players to learn to hit open stance on both sides is that it expands their "effective" range and allows them to recover more quickly. To me this is the critical reason you must be able to hit open-stanced strokes. AND whether open or square or even closed stanced, they must be hit with a stable axis of rotation to be effective.

don

[uspta146749877]

Don,
I was wondering whether you saw/read

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...40409-0001.mov
?

If yes any comments ?

[uspta990770809]

Don,
I was wondering whether you saw/read

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...40409-0001.mov
?

If yes any comments ?

Link didn't work
don

[uspta990770809]

:mad::mad:
Are you allowed to use LONGER clubs in golf?

Actually, you are. Besides the difference between wedges and drivers (about 36" vs up to 46" normally), drivers have gotten longer for a number of years. It used to be they were all limited to 44". The R&A limited the length of drivers to 48" (I think, it might be just 46"), but most PGA pros have moved to the longer 46" drivers. For a long time, Tiger stayed with a 44" steel shaft (and still outdrove almost everyone) for better control. But I think (and someone can correct me here, please), while the limit is 48" and some of the senior golfers play with the long shafted clubs, there is hardly anyone on the PGA tour using more than 46". Interestingly, on the long drive tour, they use longer clubs and hit it farther. But on the PGA tour, it's not how far, it's how many!

There is a comparison to tennis (limited comparison), where I contend the game is still CAP (consistency, accuracy and power necessarily in that order) regulated.
don

[10splayer]

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

carrerkent,

Could your further explain your position on this?

[carrerakent]

power distribution from the back leg is maximized when the opposing hip is aligned more with the target. the extreme open stance is the least powerful stance of all. since the "dirt ballers" developed that stance for wide sliding and reaching shots, it wasn't intended for power to begin with, but interestingly i think they were the first to institute the upper body lean back to create more power from an "unpowerful" position.

notice how federer plants the back leg on hard or slides on clay into a FH but as he thruss out of the back leg, the left hip actually comes forward to assist in power transfer...often almost aligning the hips with the target (optimal)...this same principle supports the idea that starting with the opposing hip open and leaving it open is a mis-use of the open stance position. (i like to put the open stance and double bend in the same receptical)

in one of my other posts i talked about the axis of the body and how a totally upright or forward leaning upper torso diminishes the power that the lower body thrust and overall torque has/can produce.

when the torso is in a somewhat leaned back position through the forward motion, contact, and follow-through, the player will be able to fully utilize again the power available.

i don't have all of the physiological and/or biomechanical words, but someone on here has already described opposing forces and how it works. what i'm describing is just how the body position can enhance or diminish those forces.

i do not recommend teaching any open stance or lean back technique to a player until they are able to establish and maintain balance throughout strokes, especially when they have to fade the body back to adjust. when you can see that happening you know they are athletically up to the challenge.

i never teach open stance because human nature will kick in and they will start leaving the hips so far open....and then guiding more and more with the arm...in walks the double bend compensation stroke.

i've done some observation tests and find that a very huge majority of the time that a top pro player makes a FH unforced error, you will see their hips out of alignment...usually with the left hip (if right handed) pointing at the umpires chair. when they are mis-aligned for inside out FHs (extreme open stance) you really see the errors pile up.

hope this helps. i know it is a hodge-podge description, but i'm doing it on the fly as things pop into my head.

[uspta146749877]

power distribution from the back leg is maximized when the opposing hip is aligned more with the target. the extreme open stance is the least powerful stance of all. since the "dirt ballers" developed that stance for wide sliding and reaching shots, it wasn't intended for power to begin with, but interestingly i think they were the first to institute the upper body lean back to create more power from an "unpowerful" position.

notice how federer plants the back leg on hard or slides on clay into a FH but as he thruss out of the back leg, the left hip actually comes forward to assist in power transfer...often almost aligning the hips with the target (optimal)...this same principle supports the idea that starting with the opposing hip open and leaving it open is a mis-use of the open stance position. (i like to put the open stance and double bend in the same receptical)

in one of my other posts i talked about the axis of the body and how a totally upright or forward leaning upper torso diminishes the power that the lower body thrust and overall torque has/can produce.

when the torso is in a somewhat leaned back position through the forward motion, contact, and follow-through, the player will be able to fully utilize again the power available.

i don't have all of the physiological and/or biomechanical words, but someone on here has already described opposing forces and how it works. what i'm describing is just how the body position can enhance or diminish those forces.

i do not recommend teaching any open stance or lean back technique to a player until they are able to establish and maintain balance throughout strokes, especially when they have to fade the body back to adjust. when you can see that happening you know they are athletically up to the challenge.

i never teach open stance because human nature will kick in and they will start leaving the hips so far open....and then guiding more and more with the arm...in walks the double bend compensation stroke.

i've done some observation tests and find that a very huge majority of the time that a top pro player makes a FH unforced error, you will see their hips out of alignment...usually with the left hip (if right handed) pointing at the umpires chair. when they are mis-aligned for inside out FHs (extreme open stance) you really see the errors pile up.

hope this helps. i know it is a hodge-podge description, but i'm doing it on the fly as things pop into my head.
Maybe a video from youtube of a coaching session of YOUR COACH would help?

[carrerakent]

Maybe a video from youtube of a coaching session of YOUR COACH would help?

we are working on something like that. problem is we realize how an incomplete understanding of any of the 10 pieces will still render mediocre results. 9 out of 10 just won't. i've watched people take a lesson from me and go out and try to teach it and fail miserably, so we intend to put together the whole thing.

do you have any input on this idea?

we want to take a player (or maybe several at varying levels) that know(s) nothing about this system, video them taking a lesson to fix a particular stroke from a "famous coach" or renowned system and obviously show the results, then have that person spend 1 hour with one of us and video that lesson and results. we want people to be able to see the difference for themselves rather than taking our word for it.

i appreciate your request.

[10splayer]

power distribution from the back leg is maximized when the opposing hip is aligned more with the target. the extreme open stance is the least powerful stance of all. since the "dirt ballers" developed that stance for wide sliding and reaching shots, it wasn't intended for power to begin with, but interestingly i think they were the first to institute the upper body lean back to create more power from an "unpowerful" position.

notice how federer plants the back leg on hard or slides on clay into a FH but as he thruss out of the back leg, the left hip actually comes forward to assist in power transfer...often almost aligning the hips with the target (optimal)...this same principle supports the idea that starting with the opposing hip open and leaving it open is a mis-use of the open stance position. (i like to put the open stance and double bend in the same receptical)
in one of my other posts i talked about the axis of the body and how a totally upright or forward leaning upper torso diminishes the power that the lower body thrust and overall torque has/can produce.

when the torso is in a somewhat leaned back position through the forward motion, contact, and follow-through, the player will be able to fully utilize again the power available.

i don't have all of the physiological and/or biomechanical words, but someone on here has already described opposing forces and how it works. what i'm describing is just how the body position can enhance or diminish those forces.

i do not recommend teaching any open stance or lean back technique to a player until they are able to establish and maintain balance throughout strokes, especially when they have to fade the body back to adjust. when you can see that happening you know they are athletically up to the challenge.

i never teach open stance because human nature will kick in and they will start leaving the hips so far open....and then guiding more and more with the arm...in walks the double bend compensation stroke.

i've done some observation tests and find that a very huge majority of the time that a top pro player makes a FH unforced error, you will see their hips out of alignment...usually with the left hip (if right handed) pointing at the umpires chair. when they are mis-aligned for inside out FHs (extreme open stance) you really see the errors pile up.

hope this helps. i know it is a hodge-podge description, but i'm doing it on the fly as things pop into my head.

Thanks for the reply. Take a look at Kerry Mitchell's "True Alignment" article, and see if that jives with what your saying.

The jest of the article, is that the hips must never, over-rotate at impact, even as the stance becomes more open. Makes sense. Through video, he shows how even as the stance starts open, the left leg, and hip, work back into a more "neutral position", or more parallel to the intended shot line, in and around contact. This would, I imagine, help preserve the integrity of the swing path(not pulling out too early) and increase angular momentum, in some fashion. I'm not a biomechanics guy, but player's most definately do this for a reason.

Do you agree? And if so, how is this over-rotation problem from open stance permutations, exculsive to those who opt for a double bend hitting structure.

P.S. I would argue the open stance, was not a result of clay courters "reaching or sliding but for the following 3 reasons.

1.To elavate. Open stance simply allows the player to move up to control contact height in the most efficient manner.
2. Reaction to the increased speed of the game. Simply rotating about an axis closer to the backside of the body, allows for the quickest production of the hitting arm to contact.
3.Stronger grips demand more overall torso rotation. Open stance allows for this in a much easier manner.

[carrerakent]

Thanks for the reply. Take a look at Kerry Mitchell's "True Alignment" article, and see if that jives with what your saying.

The jest of the article, is that the hips must never, over-rotate at impact, even as the stance becomes more open. Makes sense. Through video, he shows how even as the stance starts open, the left leg, and hip, work back into a more "neutral position", or more parallel to the intended shot line, in and around contact. This would, I imagine, help preserve the integrity of the swing path(not pulling out too early) and increase angular momentum, in some fashion. I'm not a biomechanics guy, but player's most definately do this for a reason.

Do you agree? And if so, how is this over-rotation problem from open stance permutations, exculsive to those who opt for a double bend hitting structure.

10S,

I'm anxious to check out the article you suggested. Will do that today.

You hit it on the head, "help preserve the integrity of the swing path(not pulling out too early) and increase angular momentum". even just the head pulling out instead of staying like Federer does make a difference, though almost noone ever experiences that. I never experienced it for 20+ years of playing...why I can only speculate is that I did not see the importance. Everyone always tells their students to watch the ball, watch it to contact, "keep the head down" (which is a mistake in and of itself) but without breaking that down and teaching them how to do that, those instructions make no sense, though we all think they do.


Not ever over rotating is something I'm experimenting with. For example, on a FH that is full power, mid court, where player totally explodes into the air and drives the ball down. I took a 12 year old that had wimpy shots and one day just had him leap in the air off both legs equally and hit it as "loud" as he could, i could not believe the power he produced. He had no idea what he had done.

I could see in that pushing off both legs equally and having a "balanced" and extended contact point his hips stayed true to their original alignment with his target while in the air at contact and almost at landing.

Tomorrow I am going to take my two top juniors (best athletes) and have them hit many of those jump FHs and then feed the ball a little inside and make them have to hit bent arm to see if that forces the hip rotation to continue with the shoulders. While in the air the body is going to succumb to forces distributed much more evidently.

I think this test will shed light on whether the bend, especially the double bend is a cause of lack of angular momentum as you put it, or is the inside contact point the cause of loss of angular momemtum and the bend is just a compromise of the swing to make contact. (well, as i read that, i realize it won't matter whether the chicken or the egg comes first, is it a compromise or not.)

What i feel and see is a breakdown of the swing path so already know it is a loss from the feeling, velocity, and spin of my shots, but i want to see how much the breakdown affects the hips and vice versa.

As far as open stance...well, let's define that. Yandell's stuff on this site seem to see the open stance as a foot position when it is not. Or maybe he/they don't recognize the difference in a open foot stance with OR without hips aligned. Maybe I missed something on here that actually talks about hip alignment. I haven't read the whole site!

Open stance is a hip position in my book. (Feet can be open and hips aligned, or hips can be open with feet aligned. These are very critical points that seem to be muddled.) i would only teach an open stance (with hips open) when absolutely necessary on a very wide ball...but then the player is out of the point anyway if the other guy executes...so the compromise is really just a delay in punishment.

[carrerakent]

P.S. I would argue the open stance, was not a result of clay courters "reaching or sliding but for the following 3 reasons.

1.To elavate. Open stance simply allows the player to move up to control contact height in the most efficient manner.
2. Reaction to the increased speed of the game. Simply rotating about an axis closer to the backside of the body, allows for the quickest production of the hitting arm to contact.
3.Stronger grips demand more overall torso rotation. Open stance allows for this in a much easier manner.

1. But, I see a hip and feet aligned position creating more "ups", so more elevation would seem to come from what we call on this site as neutral stance. because i see so much being overlooked about hip alignment i can't help but question whether the open stance position and elevation are an effect of lazy and/or poor true rotation and alignment with the target. (can you see a basketball rebounder going to an open stance to reach the max height to jump up? guys that reach 46-48 in veritical leaps go to a neurtral/hip feet aligned position before reaching their maximum heights.)

I do not know enough about point 1. to discount it so i won't...but I may be wrong about clay courters, but i seem to remember seeing the open foot and hip position stance emerging from the guys that hang out by the fence.

Also would not start to believe that all of those players that use open stance are even close to realizing consciously steps 1-3. i'd be much more inclined to believe that they do it because they are lazy in their footwork and/or see the ability to get back into the court easier from an open position.

2. agree with rotation using and back to the "back" leg. haven't thought of it as a quicker way to rotate shoulders to contact point. maybe a more efficient way. we teach rapid hip turn to target with emphasis of back leg starting the rotation. (can't figure out why federer can't figure out how to set up to a backhand when he does a forehand...i think i'd charge him $1,000,000 to fix that pathetic backhand setup. tells me he doesn't know why he does most anything he does. gifted athletes are the absolute worst teachers.)

3. easier rotation? lazy and/or unaware people do need something to make them rotate. lack of shoulder rotation is pretty much an amateur mistake, don't you think? lots of shoulder rotation may be the one single most differentiating factor between pros and the rest of us?

i can't see how grip impacts hips/stance/rotation. but it may.

[carrerakent]

how is this over-rotation problem from open stance permutations, exculsive to those who opt for a double bend hitting structure.


10s...your questions cause some good evaluation and thinking...

to be honest i haven't paid much attention to over rotation, open stance and double bends being linked. as soon as i see it i cringe and just want to change it.

my initial guess, and it is a guess, is that since the double bend has such an extremely lower racket head speed, the "power" has to come from someplace. even if leverage were a reasonable way to try to send a ball with more velocity, it cannot replace overall racket head speed and brings with it so many problems.

anyway...i'm assuming you mean over rotation with a very long backswing vs over rotation with the shoulders. i don't think i have ever seen someone over rotate the shoulders! big back swings yes!

if the hips are aligned with the target, maximum shoulder rotation coupled with a backswing resulting with the racket head behind the ball in alignment with the target is probably the position that will produce the greatest "power" and be a shot that is consistently hitting the intended target.

in this scenario i do not think there could be too much shoulder rotation.

[tennisplayer]

Sorry to sound so dense, but could you explain what "hips aligned with the target" means? Is the target the ball, or where ball should go? Thanks in advance.

[carrerakent]

Sorry to sound so dense, but could you explain what "hips aligned with the target" means? Is the target the ball, or where ball should go? Thanks in advance.

Tennisplayer, good question. Alignment of the hips with the general location of where you want your ball to land on the other side of the net, that's your target for alignment purposes, but if you want we can discuss later how we never aim for a spot on the court as the target, but the area/location at which you want the ball to be contacted by your opponent, that way you have trajectory, spin, etc accounted for in the target selection, not just where the ball hits the court.

Hip alignment is one of the factors that allows a player to not have to guide the ball via guiding the arm. We establish the back foot behind the contact area (note not actually directly behind the ball of course, but behind in relation to planting the back foot, not the front foot to establish position; front foot determines alignment). Then extend the stroke so that the arm on all strokes is fully extended, (yes on volleys too, but all out in front of the body) align the hips and if the player does not manipulate the racket with forearm, wrist, etc the ball will always go in alignment with the target.

Without hip alignment and an arm that bends on the way to the contact point, the chances of hitting the target are now left to chance and unnecessary arm muscle contractions to guide the racket/ball. If you really think about it, the more things that are constant, the more often the success.

Hope that helps.

[tennisplayer]

Yes, that does help greatly - thanks!

[10splayer]

julian,

please no. you aren't really suggesting any copy of roddick on a ground stroke? there are such better examples where the hip alignment utilizes a more optimal transfer of energy. and why more open stance? that just creates less power and less consistency. and don, the weight staying back will produce more power as well is used properly. transitioning to the front leg during the stroke, especially if it happens too early will change a shift in the power transfer and also even the shoulders out or tilt forward. people think that gives thrust through the ball, but it actually causes the rotational axis to get "off axis" and limit power/racket head speed.

chow

Ck,

No, not necessarily promoting Roddick as a model. I asked for the video, so one could note how the hip turn and beginning of torso rotation, help facilitate the external rotation of the upper arm and forearm,, i.e the setting up of the hitting arm structure.

I don't think either student is turning their hips soon enough. My feeling is that if hip and torso rotation are intiated earlier, the upper arm and forearm would start rotating externally earlier, and set the hitting arm structure sooner. I think the Roddick video is a good example. The hips and torso are starting to fire even while the racquet is in the downswing. Slow click on the video and notice how the rotation coresponds with the supination of the foerarm, and the setting of the hitting arm structure. Anyway, that's what I see.