Have a Question for Me?

[uspta1863382890]

Dear John,

I really do need to get a hold of an adequate video camera so I can send you video of my serve!

In the meantime, I've been working with your windmill exercise (I don't get an adequate drop) and discovered something significant this morning. As a result I'm regressing a bit, but I can see that in this case I need to take a step backward to go further forward.

After hitting a few serves this morning, I went back and did some more windmill reps, paying attention to allowing the circular motion to flow directly into the drop.

On the very next serve, I noticed that I had a hitch - I was pausing somewhere in my motion to allow for my toss height.

I did some more windmills and then served again, focusing on the continuousness of the circle and drop. This time I avoided the hitch and discovered that my toss was too high, as the continuous motion changed my rhythm so much. I never, ever expected that. I've always struggled with low contact, in fact.

This all means I've got some work to do, as the continuous circle/drop is clearly the way forward to a fuller racquet drop. It appears I need to lower my toss a bit and also alter the relationship of my tossing and racquet arms. My racquet arm lags behind (by what I thought was a common amount), and I see the need now to bring it a bit closer into synch with the tossing arm - less lag.

As an aside question, do good servers with high tosses tend to pause, however slightly, in the trophy position? If so, such a pause is absent in my circular approach - such absence is the point of it, I think, as a means of getting to a better drop.

Thank you for all you do!

Brandon Ferris

[johnyandell]

I don't see an actual pause--the motion is continuous. As to the speed that could well vary or even slow down minimally although I don't think that's something you would necessarily try to make happen. We'll know more when we do the article on Sampras's actual racket head speed based on the filming Brian Gordon did.

[dohertyme]

just a quick note on More on the Step, Step, Rip !
the caption on Federer, making the point on reversed footwork sequence,
appears incorrect.
I found the point made very helpful!
Mike

[johnyandell]

Yeah great point. You may be seeing something I'm not but I see ball bounce step step hit and the kick back.

[dohertyme]

John,

...sorry I wasn't clear about WHICH Fed caption on the footwork section in The Rip lesson. It's the 3rd photo, with a blue shirt, and the caption reads

"To hit on the rise with a open stance, the step pattern reversed: Right foot step, left foot step, hit."

(The "left" and "right" are opposite from what's intended [I think!]) Of course, the punch line is: Watch the video and it's all clear! Visualization, not words, conquers all.

Mike

[johnyandell]

You are correct! That's in More Step Rip Rip--but yeah the right and left are reversed!

[prestige1]

My son has just switched from a western forehand grip to a semi-western grip. He is having some trouble consistently hitting the ball in the court. Some of his shots go into the bottem of the net. I assume this is from too much wrist action. Other shots seem to cannon into the fence. It would be helpful if you could tell give me any tips to help my son switch to semi-western or any drills do with him to improve the forehand. His main problem is consistency rather than spin or etc.

Thanks in advance,
Jonathan

[johnyandell]

Jonathan,

Love to make something up that would be a magic bullet to help, but there is no way I can say anything intelligent without seeing the stroke in question. What is western and what is semi-western? There are at least 4 versions somewhere in between. I wouldn't assume anything until I put it on camera, including the role of the wrist. There are about a dozen factors that could produce the situation you describe.

In Advanced Tennis there is a detailed series of articles on every aspect of the forehand across the grip styles. You can find a lot of info there. And if you do video him consider sending it in for Your Strokes. I could possibly do an analysis for a future issue.

[prestige1]

Thanks for the quick reply john
His grip is somewhere in-between mild and moderate semi-western now. He played again yesterday after I asked you about his forehand and he said he was hitting it better. He is going to a tennis camp next week that films your strokes, so I could email you the video if it is any good.
Thanks for your help,
Jonathan

[johnyandell]

yeah do that and tell them to film tight without much air around the player so we actually see.

[uspta2712824457]

John,

As I have said in the past via email correspondence, I love the site and love what you guys are doing for players and tennis teaching professionals around the world. You were in fact a major positive talking point at the recent 2009 USPTA florida convention. Only good things though so no need to worry. But I digress.

I have a question about which serving stance is more injury prone. A platform stance or a pinpoint stance? I've spoken to a few pros and we have looked into the possibility of the pinpoint stance being more harmful to the shoulder because more of the shoulder/arm seems to be pushing up, and through as opposed to a platform stance which is more of a full body rotation. As a pinpoint server I am a bit defensive on this topic and slightly bias. But am very curious as to your thoughts and opinions as I will always hold them in high regard. Looking back at some of my favorite players and guys I have tried to model my game after, Krajicek, Rafter, Edberg to name several. Rafter and Krajicek have had numerous shoulder troubles. Sharapova also has struggled with her shoulder and is a pinpoint server. Coincidence? you tell me.

Thanks.

[johnyandell]

That's one of those questions that probably cannot be answered. I doubt stance is relevant anyway but how would you establish it? Have one server serve half his career with one and then the other and do an mri every month?

You get my point. The question is how does your shoulder feel? In my experience it's things like late contact and muscling the ball that make people's shoulders hurt.

[uspta2712824457]

Thanks John,

My feelings are the same. It would be very difficult to test that hypothesis unless we measured the pressure and force put upon the shoulder ligaments during the motion and contact.
Either stance woks just fine obviously. bad technique, poor fundamentals, and straining are all the main factors. Thanks for the answer.

It's certainly a question that is difficult to test and answer.

[uspta146749877]

Joh,
Don brosseau was hoping that you may read
a very recent thread about footwork.
The link is
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1346
Thank you

[johnyandell]

Funny I didn't get a request from Don. In any case I am fishing in Wyoming for the next week and defer all comments until thereafter.

[uspta146749877]

Funny I didn't get a request from Don. In any case I am fishing in Wyoming for the next week and defer all comments until thereafter.
He wrote it a in one of his post.
You may check it.
I think he assumes that you read all posts

[johnyandell]

Yes and I am still fishing. And no I don't read all posts.

[uspta990770809]

Yes and I am still fishing. And no I don't read all posts.
Actually, I really figured you had a life and did not read all posts. But this is a pretty good thread on Footwork. When you get back, I hope you'll check it out
don

[johnyandell]

I am trying to achieve said goal...my wife may forbid me from looking at this thread for my own good though...just kidding will try when I get back but there is a little thing called the July issue.

[uspta2712824457]

John,

Enjoy Wyoming. It's great up there. you totally deserve the break. have fun and enjoy your time off.

[hyperwarrior]

John,

Do you have any idea why Federer's forehand is more compact than usual during Indians Wells 2009? Was he trying something?:confused:

I'm talking about the filming you guys did in Stroke Archive from Federer 09.

[johnyandell]

Great question. And I have no answer but definitely I agree with the posts at TW about his grip being more eastern. Also more over the shoulder and reverse finishes. As usual at the majors there weren't enough close ups to see if that stuck, but it seemed he was back to more wiper action--all just an impression.

We plan a high speed filming at Cincy, so that may reveal more.

[uspta990770809]

John, just got done reading the Your Strokes on Amber's forehand. I've been stressing the vertical racket face for quite a while, especially the last couple of weeks. (Incidentally, she beat Angela in the defacto Sectional 11 and unders last month. Only 2nd year 12 and under players made it to the semis and Amber and Angela ended up playing off for 5th. Last year, the results were reversed in the 10s.) i'll have to look more carefully at the left hand extension and try breaking that down a little more.

The other thing I've been stressing is trying to break her tendency of going from straight to bent and then back to straight, all in one forward swing. She actually straightens her right arm out as the racket swings forward, creating a push instead of a swing. Do you think this is just a compensation for the extreme closed nature of the face?

In any case, thanks for the analysis. I'll be sure to get you some new video as soon as we see some progress. Amber has one of the best serves I've seen on any young kid, boy or girl, and if she gets the forehand to back it up, she is going to be a handful.

all the best,
don

[uspta990770809]

John,
it's a minor point, but I'm sure you are going to hear about it. Isn't the classical shoulder turn 90 degrees and this larger turn actually 180 degrees?

One of the questions I have is when do you start learning this. I believe you need to learn the classic action first and then develop the ability to go up off the ground later once you have sound fundamentals. On the other hand, all the little kids end up hitting everything above their heads the first few years in the game anyway. They don't so much jump as just give in to the extreme grips.

don

[johnyandell]

Right, it should be 180 coming back! Amazing I screwed that up. Thanks. And yeah I agree. If you can master the basic rotation there is hope for the future! What did you think of the analysis of Amber by the way??

[hyperwarrior]

Great question. And I have no answer but definitely I agree with the posts at TW about his grip being more eastern. Also more over the shoulder and reverse finishes. As usual at the majors there weren't enough close ups to see if that stuck, but it seemed he was back to more wiper action--all just an impression.

We plan a high speed filming at Cincy, so that may reveal more.

Cool, hopefully he'll be there for Montreal and Cincy. :o

[uspta990770809]

Right, it should be 180 coming back! Amazing I screwed that up. Thanks. And yeah I agree. If you can master the basic rotation there is hope for the future! What did you think of the analysis of Amber by the way??

I loved the analysis. I started to work from the hint you gave me as soon as I could. I lined up clips of Fed, Rafa and a couple of others and played them for her simultaneously with her own clip in Quicktime on my laptop. But it looks even clearer in the article. Loved the explanation about jumping up to deal with the high bouncing balls. Pulls a lot of things together.

Did you miss my post(About Amber's Forehand) just above the one about 180 vs 90? Also hoping you get to look at the thread: Footwork.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1346

Hope you got recharged from your fishing trip!
all the best,
don

[johnyandell]

Man, missing things right and left. In Missoula Montana now, blame it on that...

[10splayer]

Thank goodness, someone findly addressed this whole "pat the dog" issue. As mentioned in the article, delaying the formation of the hitting arm structure, is exactly what most players want to avoid. I've also found, it can lead to quick, choppy, almost violent movements, in the "turnaround" stage of the swing, when the EMPHASIS is on keeping the racquet face this closed, this late, in the downswing.

Moreover, I'm now an even bigger fan of Don. I've always liked his articles, and am always interested in his thoughts on the game. The guy knows what he's talking about.

To check his ego at the door, on a public forum, for the benefit of his student, reveals the caliber of coach, and person he is. Many pros would not do this! I know, I've been around. What a great example, of putting the kid first.
It's not hard to understand why the guy is successful.

John's analysis, was spot on in my opinion, and I have no doubt Don will make the necessary changes, to compliment and already very develped game. Again, great collaboration and example of real teachers at work!

[johnyandell]

I appreciate it and it's always productive collaborating with Don.

[uspta990770809]

Thank goodness, someone findly addressed this whole "pat the dog" issue. As mentioned in the article, delaying the formation of the hitting arm structure, is exactly what most players want to avoid. I've also found, it can lead to quick, choppy, almost violent movements, in the "turnaround" stage of the swing, when the EMPHASIS is on keeping the racquet face this closed, this late, in the downswing.

Moreover, I'm now an even bigger fan of Don. I've always liked his articles, and am always interested in his thoughts on the game. The guy knows what he's talking about.

To check his ego at the door, on a public forum, for the benefit of his student, reveals the caliber of coach, and person he is. Many pros would not do this! I know, I've been around. What a great example, of putting the kid first.
It's not hard to understand why the guy is successful.

John's analysis, was spot on in my opinion, and I have no doubt Don will make the necessary changes, to compliment and already very develped game. Again, great collaboration and example of real teachers at work!

You guys are being so nice to me, it's almost...no, nevermind, I'm almost hypoglycemic anyway and I think I can handle it. It will be interesting to see if I can get Amber to make the necessary changes in that forehand. So far the effort seems to be having positive results, but it will take a couple of months to see any significant change in longstanding habits. It's amazing how many strange habits talented kids seem to be able to develop. Maybe it's actually everyone and we only notice the talented ones because they are able to survive and even excel inspite of those habits; the others just give up and fall away.

In any case, thanks for all the kind words. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out.

In the meantime, anyone else notice the strange way Amber's arm goes from straight to bent and then straightens out through the hit? This is really pushing the ball across the net instead of swinging through it. I'm hoping that just disappears as we address the "pat the dog" problem.

thanks,
don

[10splayer]

You guys are being so nice to me, it's almost...no, nevermind, I'm almost hypoglycemic anyway and I think I can handle it. It will be interesting to see if I can get Amber to make the necessary changes in that forehand. So far the effort seems to be having positive results, but it will take a couple of months to see any significant change in longstanding habits. It's amazing how many strange habits talented kids seem to be able to develop. Maybe it's actually everyone and we only notice the talented ones because they are able to survive and even excel inspite of those habits; the others just give up and fall away.

In any case, thanks for all the kind words. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out.

In the meantime, anyone else notice the strange way Amber's arm goes from straight to bent and then straightens out through the hit? This is really pushing the ball across the net instead of swinging through it. I'm hoping that just disappears as we address the "pat the dog" problem.

thanks,
don

I would imagine it would. The bending at the elbow in the forward swing seems to coincide with the forearm supinating and racquet face opening. Which would make since. Who knows why the arm straightens again. It will be interesting to see if, the elbow angle remains more or less constant when the hitting structure is set up earlier. I would bet it would.

I've had some success showing kids how to supinate the arm, manually first, when this too closed, for too long, racquet face problem exists. Just kind of showed them how the forearm rotates the racquet head down and back, and how the elbow bends and moves into the rib cage, before the racquet begins to move forward.

Ultimately, you'll probably want this to occur as a result of the hips rotating, and the external, or outward, rotation of the right shoulder. Showing her how to do this manually, at first, might be good stepping stone to the final package. Anyway that's how I see it, but I've been wrong before.

[prestige1]

Hi John

I am unable to send you the video of my son because the video from the camp is not sent homem but is analysed there. I cannot record the video myself because my camcorder is not compadible with my computer. Thank you for offering to help though. My son is actually doing great with his new grip and his forehand is almost back to normal.

Thanks again,
Jonathan

[johnyandell]

u could just send a miniDV tape.

[tcuk]

John,

Pancho Gonzales supposedly had a 72% career average on his first serve. This stat came from Tennisone. Tennisone (I emailed them) say they got this stat from Vic Braden. I emailed Vic Braden to ask where he came across such a stat because I'm not convinced all results from back then could have been successfully archived. I suspect the stat was derived from a cross-section of his matches and not his entire career. Braden never replied to my email.

Would you happen to know anything about this stat? Pancho had a wonderful serve, as good as anyone's today considering players had to keep their front foot on the ground back then!

Seventy two percent seems staggeringly high, though.

[johnyandell]

I have no idea! Two points that might affect percentage--in those days you had to keep one foot on the ground. Welby Van Horn says that made percentages higher--and also players were serving and volleying which made first serve percent critical. But again I have no numbers myself...

[uspta146749877]

John,
any opinion on the post at tennis-warehose quoted below?
One of my students asked the same question-my reaction was very negative.
Was I very wrong ?
---> quote from the post
I use the same grip from my forehand and 1hbh. Is this "bad"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never consciously thought about it until my coach asked to see which grips I use. I was shocked to see that I use a semi-western grip for both strokes. He said that a SW grip for a 1hbh is better for high balls, that such an extreme grip might be difficult to use on low balls. However, he said that some players can make it work for them. So I'm going with this route; it works for me.

But really, is this a bad habit?

[johnyandell]

Is he turning the hand over or shifting the grip? In general it's probably the case of someone who thinks he's a pro or wants to copy one using a grip that doesn't fit with the game he plays, height of ball he gets etc. But I could be wrong...

[10splayer]

John,


Is a forehand article by Brian Gordon still in the works. That would be an oh so good read.

[johnyandell]

Not AN article, a massive opus series... the pain of producing said opus is probably what is holding us both back...but it will emerge at the right moment in the course of human history...

[10splayer]

Not AN article, a massive opus series... the pain of producing said opus is probably what is holding us both back...but it will emerge at the right moment in the course of human history...

Sounds good, I'll be in the front row for that show.

[uspta2712824457]

John,
any opinion on the post at tennis-warehose quoted below?
One of my students asked the same question-my reaction was very negative.
Was I very wrong ?
---> quote from the post
I use the same grip from my forehand and 1hbh. Is this "bad"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never consciously thought about it until my coach asked to see which grips I use. I was shocked to see that I use a semi-western grip for both strokes. He said that a SW grip for a 1hbh is better for high balls, that such an extreme grip might be difficult to use on low balls. However, he said that some players can make it work for them. So I'm going with this route; it works for me.

But really, is this a bad habit?

Sounds like we kinda have an Alberto Berasategui on our hands! 1994 French open finalist. Whatever happened to him. Poor Guy:(

[tcuk]

John:

I'm having a great time in the forum posting and learning from other coaches.

For some reason I can't seem to upload video clips to get a kind of 'work-in-progress workshop' going with other coaches. I'm having to upload to youtube then post the link in the forum for coaches to view my clips.

I must be doing something fundamentally wrong when I try to upload to tennisplayer directly. My clips are small file sizes and in an acceptable format but somehow won't upload to the forum. I've tried at least ten times.

Can you post step-by-step instructions on how to upload clips to the forum?

[uspta146749877]

Subject:Open stance backhand
John,
could you have a brief look at the thread
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?p=9133&posted=1#post9133

Thank you

[johnyandell]

can't now too much going on in cincy.

[uspta990770809]

John, I tried to post some updates on Amber's forehand, all under 5MB, but I couldn't post it. Under this account
don brosseau

[johnyandell]

yeah i know and have no clue what to do...and may not figure it out for a while...but i will. if you can post to another site, post the link.

[uspta146749877]

John,
could you be kind enough to see
my question/problem
in
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?p=9273&posted=1#post9273
post #6.
Thank you

[uspta990770809]

John, just a thought. I don't think we should focus any less on technique than we are focusing in general on tennisplayer.net, but I do think we could focus a little more on the result and the positioning and footwork. That is, how high are the players actually hitting the ball over the net. Do they really move in a "V" as in Emilio Sanchez's drill this week on the USPTA site? Or do they in actuality start a little further back and move forward? How much arc is there in the shots of women vs men? Of top 10 players vs 2nd 50 players? Where are the shoulders/hips or feet relative to the intended line of the ball? What percentage of different shots are hit open stanced/square stanced/closed stanced. There are almost enough nuts on this site that if we did a cooperative effort to analyze 20 to 50 matches for each and every ball hit identifying it as a open/closed/square stance, where it was hit, the outcome (weaker, even or stronger in the development of the point), we might be able to do some interesting work. I would be willing to do one match and I imagine that would take me a number of hours to make it all the way through the match stroke by stroke (with some sort of agreed upon guidelines for doing the charting).

As I said just a thought.

don
PS What about my posting privileges? I have some amazing video for you from LA!

I think you mentioned you had some of the data from "Shotspot" or whatever it's called in this incarnation. Occasionally they show footwork and ball paths, ...but only rarely. I'd love to see a lot more of that data. Everything we base our strategies on seems to be anecdotal.

[johnyandell]

julian,

i don't know the answer. why don't you do some investigation for us--it must have something to do with the way you have to log on thru the uspta server. email dan wilson and see what he says.

John Yandell

[johnyandell]

good questions. we are going to start relatively soon with the wide shots.
i'm fascinated with the trajectory/speed/spin thing but we are in the middle of negogiating on the shot spot stuff.

on the stances, since we put up virtually every successful stroke in a match in the stroke archives, you could simply count there by player and have a very accurate estimate by stance. you have probably 20,000 forehands spread over 65 players. It would be nice if people in the forum would team up and do this over time.

posting issue has to wait again. cincy thing was a killer. my girls' high school team is sucking every ounce of my emotional energy (again...) and then there is the small matter of the sept issue.

[uspta146749877]

julian,

i don't know the answer. why don't you do some investigation for us--it must have something to do with the way you have to log on thru the uspta server. email dan wilson and see what he says.

John Yandell
Is Dan Wilson a person Inside USPTA?
Sorry for a silly question

[johnyandell]

tech guy who did the logins you can find his email on the uspta site I think

[stickman]

I think its kind of lame that it takes a month and a half for new information, don't get me wrong i think its great, the best site there is, its just slow.

[johnyandell]

maybe you didn't read the email.

[scottmurphy]

I think everyone should just know that John's mom is terminally ill and so he's spending the last days he ever will with her. Makes a late issue of Tennisplayer seem pretty trivial doesn't it? The combined issues of September and October will be as good as ever and in the meantime let's all hold a good thought for John and his mom.

Scott Murphy

[uspta2712824457]

Well said Scott Murphy. Thank You. All Tennisplayer.net fans can wait.

John, please take care and take your time coping with this difficult period of life. I'm sure many of us, if not all of us have you and your mother in our thoughts and prayers.

Kyle LaCroix

[uspta4201423750]

John,
Sorry to hear about your situation; I don't care if the issues take 6 months to put out; I'll still be here. Anyway, I need some help with my son's backswing. His loop has always been too big, but he got away with it because the balls were slower. Now that he's pushing his way out of level 2 tournements and into level 1b, his loop, which does an awkward and slow twist over his head, is making him late on fast shots and he can't come over the top of the ball in time. The guy I've had my son working with in privates can't seem to fix it any better than I can, and group lessons and match seem top exacerbate the problem because there is no correction. What do I do?
Harry Kingsley

p.s. No rush on reply; my problem is not an emergency

[jperedo]

Any plans to have this guy's strokes captured in the future? Some similarities to the Federer/Verdasco model but seems to be missing something. Would be interesting to compare.

[johnyandell]

First Harry make him start his swing already in the bottom of the backswing.
We he can do this, stand behind him and use your racket or a tennis tube. Put it over him at the backswing height you want and then he'll crash into it if he goes higher. How heavy is his racket btw?

I've said this before but this type of question really requires video of the stroke for a valid answer.

[johnyandell]

Yeah we've got a bunch of video of Mardy--just not so sure he is site worthy...to be completely honest. But eventually we might put him up. I think we did put his serve in the Interactive Forum. But not sure you'd want to spend time looking at his forehand--backhand maybe though.

[uspta4201423750]

Well, he's got the rafa aeropro, and I know that probably seems a lot for an 8 year old, but I worked him up to it so gradually that it doesn't seem to bother him, and he competes with smaller/weaker kids with the same raquet. I actually started yesterday just as you said to. So far so good. He's not playing another match until we get this down. Thanks for the help harry

[johnyandell]

yeah well that's one reason kids use huge loops they just can't get the racket going...what does that thing weigh??

[jperedo]

Yeah we've got a bunch of video of Mardy--just not so sure he is site worthy...to be completely honest. But eventually we might put him up. I think we did put his serve in the Interactive Forum. But not sure you'd want to spend time looking at his forehand--backhand maybe though.

That's what makes it so interesting. Considering all the hype the straightarm forehand config is getting on these boards, it would be neat to analyze why Mardy's straightarm forehand is such a weakness.

[johnyandell]

Not sure if it is...I'll check.

[jasonfrausto]

Great issue John, I still think Delpo is the exception in terms of his racket position, but it does prove there is wiggle room in terms of the racket face angle during the backswing.

I noticed that Murray has closed his off more than the past as well as Ernest Gulbis, Delpo is the only player off the top of my head in the current gen that uses this "style". Nadal once again seems to have gone back to the more closed face position. I believe Delpo would be the only player in the top 10 with this position. I also agree with you that the more mild grips tend to cause the face to be in more of an on edge position like with Agassi and Delpo.

As good as his US Open win was, it will be interesting to see as you pointed out in your work if he'll be able to continue along that path. I don't feel his recent fall form is a reflection upon his overall level of play. The 2010 Aussie Open should be a great tournament with 5 legitimate contenders.

What I'm really interested in is the straight arm forehand, it seems like quite a few players have now been captured in the stroke archive with this hitting arm structure. Any data on the possible benefits? It seemed as though Paradorn and Flip were the first two, but now Nadal, Fed, Delpo, and Verdasco seem to be doing it as well. I've thought about trying to hit it myself purposely, but I'm not sure how well that would go as I'm a natural double bender. ;)

[johnyandell]

hey know you love that closed face at the top...

[jasonfrausto]

hey know you love that closed face at the top...

Guilty as charged! Great double issue, I look forward to next month's as well.

[uspta4201423750]

Hey John,
My son hits open stance forehands and forward (or neutral/semi-closed stance whatever you call it). In the forward stance (set like a baseball player or golfer) he easily gets hip rotation, but in the open, which he uses more often in matchplay, he gets little or none although he gets good shoulder rotation. How do I get him to engage the hip the way Bollitieri shows on tennis channel's academy show on the open stance forehand?

Thanks, Harry Kingsley

[vfishman]

I am trying to improve my serve. The lesson on serve I looked at is good, but is way too short. Serve is the most difficult element of the game, especially for 3.5-4.0 players, like myself. I would expect to see more slow motion videos explaining all phases of serve. And I can find all this on fuzzyyellowballs.com. And it is free. Are you going to improve the quality of instruction on this web site?

[oliensis]

Vfishman,
Have you not checked out Brian Gordon's articles on biomechanics of the serve?
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/scienceofbio.html

Bruce Elliott's articles are also good, also at the link above.

Also, go the stroke archives and go frame by frame through any of the great serves that are there.

FYB is a good site. But this one has much deeper analyses of really important technical issues.

I am trying to improve my serve. The lesson on serve I looked at is good, but is way too short. Serve is the most difficult element of the game, especially for 3.5-4.0 players, like myself. I would expect to see more slow motion videos explaining all phases of serve. And I can find all this on fuzzyyellowballs.com. And it is free. Are you going to improve the quality of instruction on this web site?

[johnyandell]

I'd suggest you actually explore the materials on the website before making angry, inaccurate statements about what is here, and especially about the quality.

For example the two detailed articles on Federer's serve in Advanced Tennis, or the 2 on Roddick's. Or the serve articles there in the Myth series. Or the multi-part series on Sampras's serve in Tour Strokes. Or the practical serving implications in Heavy Ball. Or the groundbreaking series by Brian Gordon in Biomechanics. Or Scott Murphy's in Classic Lessons. Or how about Chris Lewit's 3 Part article on the Kick Serve. Or the 10 serve articles in Your Strokes. There is still a lot more beyond that if you actually look.

You say you want video--have you even looked at the Stroke Archive? There are hundreds and hundreds of serve clips of dozens of the world's top players.

If you study that information and still prefer fyb, I think I can live with that.

[johnyandell]

Harry,

This is one of those questions where I would not comment unless I saw video of the stroke. Not sure what early hip engagement means to you or if I would think it was a positive thing without seeing video.

John Yandell

[uspta146749877]

Could you see
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1482

[johnyandell]

Yeah I saw that. You would have to look closely at the incoming ball to determine if it was slice. Obviously, that is not the way the Stroke Archive is set up, although there must be some if you looke through all the court level rear views. Good request though. You will be able to see more on this when we start our Patterns Archive.

[chuck62]

John, Any chance you might add Todd Martin to the stroke archive ?
He has a really good all court game that seems to be still holding up very well on the champions circuit. He also had one of the best two handed backhands of all time. I think we could learn alot by studying his strokes.

[johnyandell]

Yeah good call. He managed to escape us mostly when he was on the tour. There are a few clips of him in one or more of Welby's articles in teaching systems. So unlikely he'll get the full treatment. If a lot of other people feel the same, I could put up some footage though in the Interactive Forum.
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/images/misc/progress.gif

[bobbyswift]

there should definitely be Stefan Edberg in the stroke archive. His backhand is easily top 5 of all time.

[johnyandell]

Couldn't agree more! Too bad he stopped playing before we started filming. If he ever plays a fuller senior schedule in the states, I'll try for that.

[uspta146749877]

John,
you mentioned
Volume 5 Issue 8
November 2009

New in the
Patterns Archive:

Roger Federer
Coming Soon!

Are we going to have a new section of a yellow menu?

[johnyandell]

Yes, coming soon.

[hyperwarrior]

John,

Is there a way to tell uspta146749877 to stop creating pointless thread?

No offense but I feel like he's polluting the forum...:mad:

[johnyandell]

There is now a new category called Interesting Links.

[hyperwarrior]

Ok thanks :rolleyes:

[hyperwarrior]

John,

I really enjoy the new patterns archive and there is a LOT to learn in a single clip. Those clips are worth a thousand words.
The way I watch tennis on TV is quite different from watching those patterns. On TV, I'm just there to enjoy and don't notice much the smallest details...

Now this helps us analyse how an all-court player like Federer plays the points.
Are you planning on filming others pros within this pattern? I think this new archive raises our tennis IQ!

[uspta2712824457]

there should definitely be Stefan Edberg in the stroke archive. His backhand is easily top 5 of all time.

bobbyswift,

I have spoken to John about getting Stefan Edberg into the stroke archives. I'm a big Edberg fan. I know John is as well. Logistically it's tough because he lives in London. He may come to the states to play senior events, but it is quite rare. I keep hoping, and that's all I can do. I would love to start a fund to finance a trip for John Yandell and the tennisplayer.net crew to london. That would be awesome. Edberg would be worth it.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA

[johnyandell]

Thanks for the great comments about the patterns! And yes. We've filmed over a dozen players.

Agree there is a ton there to learn--we probably don't even know how much yet...

Nadal is next, early next year. We have Murray, Djokovic, and also older players such as Agassi. Going to be a big new component in our evolution...

[johnyandell]

Re: Edberg

Ok let the fundraising begin...but seriously most of the players we film we film up to 6 or more matches. Particularly with attacking players, good complete sequences are relatively rare. Need to figure out how to get several matches...

[uspta2712824457]

6 matches would be tough to film with Edberg. I feel your pain John. No worries. With Edberg or without him, your site is still the best. Thanks again for all you do.

[chuck62]

John,
Have you considered starting a doubles section ? You could call it the doubles alley and have famous doubles specialists like the Bryans, McEnroe and Navratilova commenting on strategy and shot making specific to doubles. In Atlanta we have a year round doubles only league called ALTA with about 80 thousand members but I have noticed that there is verly little on the web that focuses on doubles skills.

[johnyandell]

Yeah it's a great suggestion. We have a couple of things in the work's doubles wise. There are several excellent articles in the strategy section. but we would like to supplement that with actual doubles patterns and shots.

Not sure when, honestly, that'll get to the top of the list, but eventually.

[florian80]

Hi John,

I posted this as a separate thread but then realized you have a thread where you answer questions.

what are your thoughts on acceptable forehand grips in womens pro tennis ? i am supposed to do a video analysis and possibly work with a very promising 15 year old girl that has already had some pro success. i have only seen a few clips on the iphone and it looks like her forehand grip is quite severe. looks like it is significantly underneath the handle. she is quite tall as well and her dad told me to no surprise of course that she loves high balls on her forehand and hates low fast balls. i told him that if she ever plays venus, serena or maria or whoever there wont be any high balls to the forehand but many low fast ones.

now i tried to think of top pro female players with extreme forehand grips...mauresmo came to mind but her forehand is a liability in my opinion. safina i thought about for a bit but looks like a semi-western 4/3.5 to me.
anyways...i know it is hard to put a number on these things but how far do you think is too far ?

thanks in advance

[johnyandell]

Very hard to say anything of course without looking at the player and even watching matches. The other more extreme woman is Petrova. Seems that very few women are 4/4 or more extreme. Most have a 3.5 in there somewhere.

[uspta146749877]

John,
Robert Lansdorp using the phrase "western backhand grip"
( see a new issue).
What is a definition of terms of bevels?
Thank you

[johnyandell]

He isn't really specifying but safe to say the knuckle is at least over the edge of one back toward eight.

[mntlblok]

Hey, John,

Did you attend the National 40's Hard Courts?

Kevin

[shiuey]

Dear John,

Great posts of Juan Martin Del Potros forehand. Would you classify his forehand as a straight arm forehand?

I also had an idea for you regarding teaching the service return. I have heard it said by several instructors that you can tell the type of spin on a serve by the sound the ball makes when it is struck. Do you think that this is true? If so could you put up the sounds on your site associated with the different types of serves?

EJ

[ochi]

How about asking King Van Nostrand to write a column? Here's a man who's been winning scores of national and international titles for decades. A really nice, modest person. I met him and his daughter, Molly, once, at a Team Tennis event. "I hear you're a heck of a player," I said. "Used to be," he replied in an aw-shucks manner. Well, he still was and still is. I'd like to know how he adapted his game through the decades. He's now 71, I believe.

I hope he'll write a book -- or has he by now?

[johnyandell]

OK back from Baja where, blissfully, I was completely unconnected for a week--something I should do far more of...but to answer the questions:

Did not attend 40s nationals--but jeff will be reporting on that.

JMP forehand hitting arm structure--very good question! His arms are ultra long, which makes any bend seem less. Also we have not filmed him yet at 250 frames which will give much more definitive look. Check out my article on his forehand in Tour Strokes. My opinion at this point is that he is like Federer--some straight, some double bend, some inbetween.

And as for Mr. KVN, don't know him, who knows maybe we will meet.

[uspta4201423750]

Hey John,
My son is playing well, and his stroke technique is much more solid now than ever, but he seems afraid to really hit the ball with all of his energy. He looks like he's hitting the ball about 50% as hard as he could. It's annoying because I've always been a very safe player too, and I'm dying to find a way to get him to just go for it and stop worrying about getting it in. How can I get him to unleash the beast within?

Harry Kingsley

[uspta4201423750]

King Van Nostrum is a legend on Long Island

[johnyandell]

Not sure you can. Playing style is mostly a matter of personality. You can try something like having him play points and the game is to win 11 points all on winners or forced errors. But players develop in their own way at their own pace. The more confident he becomes the more he will be willing to try things.

[ralphoaxaca]

John

I recently joined your web site and must say I have gained immediate results! To define my background a bit; I'd probably classify myself as one of the better players in Merced County.

But now the reason for writing you is this......

The section on grips has made an absolute day to night difference in my forehand. Now I'm hitting the ball in the sweet spot almost every time I hit it!
What made the difference? Well, first I want to say I always thought I had an Eastern grip but after reading your article on grips, I realized my grip was neither of any of the grips you described. In short, my index pad was on the side bevel but my heel pad was sitting on the 2nd bevel (2nd bevel from the top, left to right). So to I lined up my heel pad to sit on the same bevel as my index pad; which matches your description of the Eastern Grip . Bam!!! the difference is unbelievable; I'm swinging freely at the ball and it feels great to drive the ball!

As for the serve; I've always felt my serve was always lacking a rhythm to it; only sometimes achieving the feeling of hitting the sweet spot. It's embarrassing to tell you how many years I've experimented with the back swing and not achieving any results. Then I read "back drop" article about Paul Goldstein and John McEnroe. Then I tried the exercise you recommended where you swing the racquet in a full circle; next thing I know my serving arm seems to move freely through the serving motion and now it feels like I'm hitting the sweet spot a lot more often (day and night difference again!).

I know I've read this article about the racket drop but I still can't quite get my mind around it as to why the exercise works and how it's making such a big difference? Can you describe again what this exercise is doing to improve the mechanics of my serve?

I need a quick remedy on my two handed backhand.........for about the last month or so all 3 of my strokes; Forehand, Serve and Backhand have been working really well at the same time! Then of all of sudden; my back hand is out of sync! For a time I was able to deliver a quick clean cut at the ball; my arms seemed to swing freely through the stroke. It basically felt like I could swing as hard as I could and still hit the sweet spot while keeping the ball in play.

Now at times it feels like there's a hitch during the swing. I've tried to remedy this by stepping forward with my right foot as the ball approaches me; rather than moving my left back first to get me into a ready to hit position. This foot work seems to alleviate the hitch, but having trouble incorporating it while on the run.

Do you have any rhythm building or foot work exercises for two handed backhands like you do for the Serve?


Ralph Serrano Oaxaca

[ahile02]

John,
On the subject of hand/arm rotation on the forehand, should one start the rotation of the hand and arm (to produce the windshield wiper movement and increase topspin) just slightly before contact? What's the earliest one should begin hand/arm rotation


I'm always had some issues truly "feeling" the kinetic chain on the open stance and it feeling natural. Whenever I load my back leg and try to explode off of it, I end up jumping up, throwing my whole balance off and it ends up just being counter-intuitive to what the open stance forehand is supposed to do. It seems like I'm merely jumping into the air, sending my momentum up, but not forward. Any tips on how I can actually correctly use the kinetic energy from the ground-up and not just jump? Should the back leg/foot pivot before exploding up? Any drills or anything like that to develop a natural feel to how the kinetic chain works through the open stance?

[johnyandell]

For Ralph,

The circle windup enlarges the size and changes the shape of the backswing. It's is easier to make the drop this way unless you have a super flexible shoulder from god.

As for a "quick" fix on anything, including your two hander, I don't really believe in that. Also, as I have said many times here, to comment on a stroke without seeing it is folly. The one thing you could check is the timing of the turn. You need to be fully turned with the racket ready to start forward at the LATEST when the ball bounces on the court. Aside from that I have no idea about the look or shape of your swing. So send in some video.
(See Your Strokes for how.)

John Yandell

[johnyandell]

For ahile02,

I don't think it's possible to give a certain split second for the wiper to start. Remember that the hand and racket rotate somewhat in any forehand. The wiper is just more extreme. The answer is to focus on the finish. Visualize how much you want the hand to rotate at the end. If you feel this let your body decide when to start. You can't micromanage this--even in the high speed footage at contact it's impossible to predict the amount of wiper.

As for the leg, again the same issue. This is not a mechancial movement. You do not jump. By coiling hard on the outside leg the push should come naturally from the legs as part of the forward swing. Focus on the preparation and the finish.

John Yandell

[thad]

would like your help if possible
i am working with a women on her tennis
she is a 4.0
her best shot is her 2 hand backhand
her grip is a little less then 1 beval over on both hands
2 yrs ago a pro told her that if she wanted to volley good she had to go to
a 1 hand volley on the backhand side
she has tried very hard but her backhand volley is not good
today i said why don't you think about going back to a 2 hand backhand volley
she asked me what grip should she use on both hands
i hit a one hand backhand
so i had no idea what the answer was

what are your thoughts on the above
and where could i go to read about how to hit the 2 hand backhand volley

thanks
would appreciate all thoughts

[johnyandell]

yeah great question. if you can find a copy of my book visual tennis there are teaching progressions there for that. A continental and an eastern is the grip combo.

If the player mainly plays doubles and doesn't do a lot of approaching where she has to hit low first volleys, and isn't some athletic poaching type, it can actually be a better shot. Frew McMillan hit two handed volleys off both sides and won slam doubles.

However, the main issues--I see it with girls high school players on my team--are strength and development time. You might have to hit thousands and thousands of volleys to get that one-hander down, particularly if you aren't very strong and need perfect technique. How many lower level club players are going to do that?

[uspta2801398569]

Hey John

So often I hear coaches talk about the use of the left hand (right handed Player) for the backhand. "That Its the be all end all to hitting great backhands" You also hear coaches say percentages like 70% is used with the left hand.
How could you even possibly measure something like that!!
I am righty but can hit a ball really well left handed. Does that mean I should have a incredible backhand. When you watch a lot of the slow motion backhands you see the hands laid back through impact and many frames after..
Is the right hand used in the finishing/deceleration of the racquet phase?
How? and when is the left hand used? Is the left hand used more only when try to put extra spin on the ball? I notice when I play with different grip variation such as a eastern/eastern I guide more with my top hand! But when I use my usual continental bottom hand and semi-western top, I feel less need for the left hand unless I want to generate spin. You also see a lot of women players using less dominent grip positions with the bottom hand and more of the men with stronger! Why is that?

Adam

[tica1]

I just have one question regarding the forehand, and specifically Federer's forehand. We know from Hi-Speed video research that the pro's do not use the wrist in strokes such as the forehand and serve etc. but that it is in a laid back position. From reading Jeff Counts work he says that it generally goes from a laid back position of up to 90 degrees to a 45 degree angle on contact(what he calls the wrist release).

My question is about the first federer video in the first article on his forehand. If you look at it, it looks like he supinates the wrist and then quick pronates it on conact. Obviously this is not happening, I'm wondering though is this, as Jeff said in one of his recent articles, the hitting arm supinates backwards before the racquet is "pulled" to the ball and then the wrist release from the laid back position to the roughly 45 degree angle on contact. Is that what is happening but it's happening so fast in that video that the human eye thinks that it is actually the wrist supinating and pronating...

one other question is about the hitting arm positions...as you know, the angles in the elbow etc. and the whole structure remains fixed from the lowering of it till slightly after contact...my question is at what point does the wrist release after contact and when does the hand and arm rotation start.

[wicky10s]

Hi John,
I wonder if you might do another in depth piece at some point on torso rotation on the forehand side that specifically looks at the relationship between the angle of the lower body when it is set up to hit in relation to the angle of the upper body at the top of the backswing.
I notice similar timing and set up positions by many of the top pros(particularly in the center shots) and I think it would be great to have you dissect and relate these two major parts of the swing with video analysis.
It's notable to see time and time again on the backswing (in the open to neutral stance) that the feet(and hips) set up about 45 degrees to the baseline while the shoulders rotate farther around to 90 degrees. It also seems as though positioning and setting up the loading leg is critical to the timing of the downswing and has an effect on the position of the hand at the top of the backswing . I wonder what the que is for knowing exactly where and when to plant the foot of the loading leg.This all might seem simple and obvious but I think that the relationship between the loading leg and torso rotation angles are very important and sometimes illusive parts of the timing process.
What do you think?

[johnyandell]

Tica,

I think you are confusing wrist release--or forward flexing of the wrist with hand and arm rotation. The hand and arm and racket, including the wrist, come down to the bottom of the backswing closed or slightly closed. They then rotate backwards to find the hitting arm position and the start of the forward swing.

On the forward swing the hand and arm now rotate counterclockwise, depending on the amount of wiper. Suggest you look at the new forehand series.

The wrist releases forward at various times after contact. This should just happen and will if you are relaxed. You shouldn't be trying to make it happen.

[johnyandell]

wicky,

Check out the article I wrote years ago on Commonalities Across the Grip styles. The loading of the leg can be taught as roughly simultaneous with the stretch of the left arm and the top of the backswing on a ball in the center. But the sequence falls apart with enough movement--turn usually preceding leg loading.
If a player has the basic positions though he will probably do this naturally.

As for the hips/shoulder thing. No doubt there is a separation, and the shoulders turn more than the hips. I think there is even research that shows the greater this separation the more power...

But I am not a fan of the 45 degree foot angle--even though it obviously happens. Wish someone would count a few hundred center forehands and see what the average angles are.

I just looked at the first 12 or so Fed Center FHs and only 4 are truly at 45 degrees. About 4 were parallel like this one:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterOpenSta nceSide.mov

And the rest were inbetween.

In teaching what I see is that when players consciously try to do the 45 thing, they end up restricting the overall body turn--yes there is a separatio but forcing this 45 degree step often means that neither hips nor shoulders get turned enough.

[wicky10s]

Hi John,
I reviewed the commonalities article. such a great piece.
Especially the timing paragraph..which has been my issue for a while now.
Will you expand on your thoughts about the 45 degree angle stance? I am a little confused.
Thanks

[johnyandell]

My experience is that when players try to plant at 45 degrees they end up not getting turned fully. Think it's better to try to turn the feet sideways to feel the full shoulder turn and then just adjust ball to ball without thinking of it.

[ahile02]

In the Jan 2010 Five fundamentals: swing of the forehand by michael, he says the loading takes place on the right foot (which is what i've read from other articles on here as well as countless other pros), but then goes and says the weight is loaded on the left foot. Any explanation? Kinda confused now....

[johnyandell]

It right! We'll correct!

[uspta4201423750]

Hey John,
I'm enjoying the agassi book as a tennis parent/coach. A lot of coaches pretend to know how much your kid should practice, a book like this says what Agassi actually did at young ages. Is there some way I can find out how many other current, top pros trained at young ages? Thanks, HARRY Kingsley

[mcrok]

Hi John,
What do you think of the Zvonareva serve? It seems to me that apart from the fact tha she has some mental issues (the match against Penetta at the Us open) , while serving the movement of the body after contact is more to the side than foreward. I'd like your opinion. I think it's because i feel sorry for her after her match against Azarenka. I remember the piece on Jankovic. Maybe a similar thing could be done for her. They all change serves Dementieva, Henin etc. so why not her. What do you think of some unasked advice?

[johnyandell]

Good idea. We will eventually put her up in the stroke archive and maybe we can go forward from there. But somehow I doubt her coach is an avid reader of Tennisplayer.

[johnyandell]

Harry,
Read the Sampras book it has a lot of similar information.
John Yandell

[ahile02]

Few quick q's about the forehand,

1. From watching videos in the high speed archive, it appears that the shoulders should start to open somewhat before the racquet reaches the bottom of the backswing. Is this correct?

2. After doing some research in the forum, I know you feel the term "kinetic chain" is improperly applied somewhat. I hate to use it, but for lack of a better term, in the kinetic chain are the shoulders opened consciously or if a player "loads and explodes" correctly, the should rotation happens on its own?

I found Jeff Count's articles concerning the double-bend extremely informative. Would you also agree the forehand "swing" is not really a "swing, but a pushing(pulling?) and lifting motion?

[johnyandell]

I think it's a bad idea to try to rotate the shoulders. If the set up at the full turn is correct and you swing through to the extension point that will happen in the right sequence. Seen a lot of people get off the tract trying to intervene in that.

Jeff's description is a great way of looking at it.

[denniskirchoff]

I have a student whose racquet head on take back in my opinion is too closed. Not much specific emphasis on that, either written or video. I also think it would be helpful if there were a bit more emphasis on point of contact.

Overall, please hear that i think your site is the best out there and very helpful to me as an instructor.

[johnyandell]

Dennis,

Suggest you look at the new forehand series in advanced tennis. It talks specifically about the value or not of closing the racket face in the backswing and there is an entire segment on the contact point. And thanks for the good words.

John Yandell

[jimj1961]

John,

As a new subscriber, I just love the site. Especially helpful for me has been the "double bend" forehand, I just started working on this, and my forehand has improved already. I wonder if the premise isn't a bit similar to the golf swing, where you want to hold the club angle as long as possible. Also, is there any part of the double bend technique that applies to the serve?

Forgive me if that's a dumb question, just coming back to the game after 25 years, and am a 3.0 player.

Thanks again for a great website!

[johnyandell]

I try to stay away from analogies with other sports I don't understand...but as for the serve, try the articles in Advanced Tennis on Federer's serve or the Sampras article on Racket Path in Tour Strokes.

[jimj1961]

Thanks John,

I created a thread for this question but realized I should have posted here.


I'm a 3.0-3.5 player who has been playing a year, after 20+ years off. I've just started working on the double bend forehand during drills, with ball machines, and in friendly matches.

Also, I'm working on the mental aspect of the game as it relates to a Jeff Greenwald article here. The takeaway there for me is to not get wrap up in matches, games, points or each ball, but to take a 30,000 foot view of my game, and where I want to end up. It's hard for me, but I know that approach is the correct one.

My question is...How much should you be working on at a given time? What is realistic, and what is not. I know that it's different for everyone, but I would appreciate a general idea for someone of my level.

[johnyandell]

I think it's hard to take apart more than one stroke at a time. The mental game--that can be pretty much a constant. You have to trust your instincts. If you feel overloaded even if you know what you are trying to work on is correct, then it's too much.

[jimj1961]

Thanks John,

Right now I'm focusing on the non-hitting arm as in your article about Danielle, and the double bend with the hitting arm and wrist. Hopefully, I'll have some video at some point.

[jimj1961]

John,

I am loving working on my game utilizing all the tools on the website. I appreciate you taking time to answers all the questions you get.

My question now is on upper body rotation through the shot, for example the forehand on a right handed player. Which shoulder triggers the rotation...are you using the left shoulder shoulder leading the stroke or is the right shoulder dominate in turning through the shot?

It's evident on the video I have taken, that I have almost no rotation coming through the ball.

Thanks,

Jim

[johnyandell]

Jim,

It's virtually impossible to diagnosis this without seeing video. Have you got any place to post some? There are two many factors in the preparation and foreswing for me to be able to answer that question unless I see the stroke.

John Yandell

[rosheem]

John,

I just had a chance to watch my first Division 1 men's tennis match, U of Illinois vs. Notre Dame.

My impressions were very similar to what you wrote about in your article about the 2007 Easter Bowl. (In fact, Johnny Hamui plays for U of I, and he does have a sweet one-handed backhand.)

In your Easter Bowl article, you mention that the evolution of this style of play is like a chicken-and-egg scenario...high bouncing balls lead to high contact points which lead to more high-bouncing balls.

The good news is that the technique I have developed for myself is pretty close to what I saw these guys doing, so I was happy about that.

The bad news is that I rarely see those types of balls coming at me in match play at the 4.0 level or even at the 4.5 level.

So I tried to watch carefully to see what those college kids did on balls that were lower or shorter. First of all, there really weren't that many. Even the serves bounce up high into the strike zone. But when they did get a short or low ball, they usually ended up approaching. Either way, they always committed to a full swing and any changes to their basic swing shape were pretty minor. They seemed to pretty much hit every ball the same way.

How do I use what I saw and learned to improve my own game? I can't just preferentially choose college-type hitters to hit against...I have to win my way up and the road is full of USTA veteran guys who simply don't produce that kind of ball.

Right now, it seems like I need to just continue improving my footwork, timing, and technique so that I can be MUCH more aggressive and simply just impose my game on my opponents. I can only imagine if one of those college kids played against one of my typical opponents, that's what he would do.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[johnyandell]

Well depending on your grips and the amount of speed and spin your opponent's give you it can be challenging. Sure just banging away against other big hitters is fun. But it is very difficult to have to change speed on every ball and hit a ton of spin when the ball is coming in slower and lower.

What level are you playing?

[rosheem]

I use a 4/4 grip on my forehand and a more moderate grip on my 1-handed backhand.

A third of my matches are at 8.0 mixed doubles, another third at 4.0 doubles or singles, and a third at 4.5 doubles or singles.

My game seems to really flow at the 4.5 level when the balls are coming at me with some pace, spin, and height. It seems a bit strange, but even returning serves seems way easier at the 4.5 level. The faster it comes, the faster I can swing and everything just seems to flow better. It also seems like I get to tap into my athleticism much more at the higher level.

My actual USTA rating is 4.0, but I've met some guys who have been pulling me up to play at the 4.5 level, and I would like to stay up there an start winning consistently. Right now, it's just much easier to gain match experience at the 4.0 level because there are about 5 times as many 4.0 leagues as 4.5.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to maintain some patience and perspective, since I've only been playing for 2.5 years. But watching those D-1 college guys really inspired me and made me realize that I can and should be improving even faster and I don't think those kids would really stray from their bread-and-butter style if they were facing the same kinds of opponents I am. Or maybe they would? That's why I wanted to see what you thought about it.

Thanks!

[johnyandell]

I personally think every player should play the style that they want to play and that gives them satisfaction. Otherwise what would be the point?

Having played a lot of 4.5 and 5.0 tennis myself in the past, it's conceivable though that you could be more effective (not to be confused with what you may want) with a less extreme grip.

As you observed in the college matches, unless the ball is like chest high, that is not really a natural grip. Don't think you can't hit the ball hard and hit heavy top with less extreme grips--look at Federer and Del Potro.

The problem if the ball is lower and slow is you really have to wiper the hell out of it with Andy's grip.

[littlelobbers]

John,

I just read your article on the forehand volley in advanced tennis section. Very good stuff! What do you recommend for a player with two hands on both sides that switches hand arrangement for forehands and backhands. What do two-handed pros do with the forehand volley? One last thing I would bet that a large number of your members play more doubles and even coach more doubles then they play or coach singles. Would you consider creating a doubles section for the site?

Thanks

[jimj1961]

Hi John,


I recently switched from the Ksurge to a Yonex RDS 001 98, I love the feel and the control, but it feels like I lost a little pop. Currently I'm stinging it at 54 lbs, and am using synthetic gut...not sure which one, my pro put in for me. Any suggestions regarding strings and tension would be appreciated.

Thank you

[johnyandell]

On the two-handed stuff I can recommend a book by one of our writers, called Two-Handed Tennis. Jeff mcCullough is the author. Two-handed volleys I don't know enough about to advise anyone...

As for the string question, you have the wrong person! I am the opposite of a string and racket guy and go just by feel and never change once I find the combo for me.

Email Scott Murphy (again a writer) and tell him I told you to--bet he will have some ideas as he LOVES string. scottmrph@yahoo.com

[jryle1]

John,

Just a quick question about Indian Wells.....Are you filming any hi-speed there? Would be interesting to get Roger's strokes again. I believe that part of his backswing has changed slightly from watching some of Jeff Counts videos from Miami last year I think it was...just as he lowers the racquet it seems different. His serve seems slightly different aswell and people keep talking about his much improved backhand so would be interesting to see some hi-speed vids and to compare.

[ejkantor]

Love everything about the website. What I'd really like to see now and I can't seem to find, is video of the "ARC" of the ball. I've looked for some of the video from the "Shot Spot", can't find it. I've looked for "Hawk Eye", can't find any. Was wondering if you've taken any video of the pro's and their arc's on the ball. I'm a big believer that their shots and their arcs are "situational" to
where they are in the court and what shot they're attempting to play. I think that this is not talked enough about to juniors. Video seems to be the key way to go. Just wanted to show more video to my competitive players. Thanks again for the website. It's great!

[johnyandell]

EJ,
I agree with you. You would enjoy Brett Hobden's article in Famous Coaches because he talks about the exact subject.

You are also dead on track with the shot spot idea. This is actually something we have been working on for quite a while--access to that data which would define not only arc, but speed and bounce. Don't want to jink it, but I think over the next year we will be able to portray the differences you are talking about by reference to actual pro ball flights.

[nabrug]

Love everything about the website. What I'd really like to see now and I can't seem to find, is video of the "ARC" of the ball. I've looked for some of the video from the "Shot Spot", can't find it. I've looked for "Hawk Eye", can't find any. Was wondering if you've taken any video of the pro's and their arc's on the ball. I'm a big believer that their shots and their arcs are "situational" to
where they are in the court and what shot they're attempting to play. I think that this is not talked enough about to juniors. Video seems to be the key way to go. Just wanted to show more video to my competitive players. Thanks again for the website. It's great!

A few years ago, before Hawkeye was introduced, at certain grandslam websites IBM included Point Tracker. You could see all the arc´s of every point played. At that time I just thought it was nice. Now I think it is the essence of the game of tennis. Now I blame myself for not copying a few matches. I searched the web but couldn´t find anything.

[jimj1961]

John,

Can you comment on the advantages of a head light racket.


Thank you,

Jim

[johnyandell]

Depends for whom! All things being equal a heavier racket will give more force. But most people cannot swing them, and therefore lose racket head speed, the speed of the swing being the biggest factor.

Myself I like 11oz to 11.5oz about 8 points head light. I find I can get it around and made the contacts easily and fluidly. I think for many people at the 4.5 level and below this is the ideal way to go. But really hitting the ball with the racket tells you everything you need to know as to whether it's right for you.

[chokomakashi]

well, there are many people believe that pros do not use the wrist... I would think this is wrong... I am sure you guys talked about this already but am I right? Pros do use the wrist for the shot.. I have several evidence....

I am a japanese and i have many japanese tennis magazines and they are very good.. and one issue hewitt was in it and taught us how to hit forehand.. and he said himself that he use his wrist snap to hit the tennis ball.. and another evidence is if you do not use wrist at all.. your arm will extend or your elbow goes way forward and if you see pros image that is not the case.. you see their elbow stay pretty much same spot after their contact... federer good example... yes I do believe they do not use their when they conatac the ball.. but soon as they contact the ball clean they rotate their wrist very quickly.... that's how they are getting windshield wiper... most players are same untill contact the ball... racket travel about 30 degree just like hit the ball flat then after they meet the ball they use windshield wiper... yes i believe that Connors did not use his wrist at all.. he was more like blocking wrist even after he hit the ball....

any thoughts on this?

[johnyandell]

You have raised (once again!) one of the most hotly debated issues in tennis teaching and playing. It's been discussed ad infinitum, but I'll try to summarize my take based on your posts.

First I think what you are referring to is probably what I call hand and arm rotation. This is different that forward wrist flex.

Suggest you read this article and see if it doesn't answer your questions:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/your_forehand_and_the_modern_forehand/hand_arm_rotation/hand_arm_rotation.html


It's one thing to rotate the hand and racket right to left, which of course includes the wrist and the forearm and to some extent the upper arm. but normally when players do this, the wrist stays laid back.

You can see some forward flex of the wrist at contact, but normally it remains laid back 30 to 90 degrees. The exception would be a straight arm forehand hit with an extreme grip where the wrist often (but not always) does reach the neutral position. You can see this on some straight arm forehands with more conservative grips as well.

Racket head speed component studies have shown that if the arm is loose this forward motion is more reactionary, like a hinge. It contributes 1% or so to actual racket head speed.

Hope this helps!

[chokomakashi]

yes when you contact the ball you have to take the ball...then after that wrist involves.. no doubt about it... i think that's what you mean....

there is no doubt about it... i recorded my swing with using intense wrist from start and end and i compare with nadal swing and it came out different...

nadal contact the ball more like flat path...you can see his arm is straight when he contacts...then he use intense windshileldwiper very quickly...

Like hewitt and Agassi uses their wrist after the contact or don't know exactly when but can't be when they contact otherwise they can't hit that hard. but hewitt and Agassi do not use modern style of windshiled wiper.. how would i know? after they hit the ball their racket face doesn't point to opponet instead they point to side fence.. both finish the racket more or less next to their left ear.... most top 10 guys's racket face point to oppoent...

well, this is another topic, but mr. Robert Landsorp is very successful coach because follow though is the basic form of forehand and backhand and from there you can add special effect.. if you don't have that your game is over.. just like he said.... funny enough.. i do believe pros use the wrist but i never teach kids how to use the wrist anymore it can go crazy... anything stroke involves topspin involves then their stroke can get crazy... they start hit the frame and their shot start to slow down

anyhow thanks

[uspta4201423750]

I can't seem to find any articles on the second serve. There seem to be many different philosophies on this and I wonder what's yours. I like the kick serve, but I also think Sampras has the best of all time. I would love to see a real analysis of what you think is the ideal 2nd serve.

Harry Kingsley

[uspta4201423750]

I also wonder if you know of clay court specific shoes for little people (size 2 1/2). Thanks Harry Kingsley

[johnyandell]

There is an article in Tour Strokes about Sampras's second serve. Also in Classic Lessons, Chris Lewit's series on the kick serve.

Shoes? No idea. Harry you need to learn to use Google!

[littlelobbers]

John,

What are your thoughts on Jr. Development and the size of the backswing?

LL

[johnyandell]

That you should make sure that the motion starts with the unit turn and the full turn.

That you should try to have the player keep the racket hand on the right side. That the hand should be below shoulder level at the highest point if possible.

That some kids will expand beyond these parameters if they try to hit the ball too hard, or their contact is late, or their rackets are too heavy.

That inspite of all that sometimes the backswing will be "too large" and only time and strength will help change that. But that you still bring them back to the unit turn and keeping the hand on the right side.

[jryle1]

I have a quick question....what makes the Federer forehand so good?

Also, will their be any articles coming up on improving timing and also on acceleration. When should the acceleration stop and finish? Is it true that you should accelerate on contact??

[johnyandell]

Uh, you think that question can be answered quickly? The "quick" answer is that he is Roger Federer. You could have his same motion and you wouldn't be him or have "his" forehand. However, the technical aspect is broken down in two articles in Advanced Tennis.

On timing see Scott Murphy's article in Classic Lessons.

"Acceleration," now there is a loaded term. It's basically mathmatical--so I would read Brian Gordon's serve articles.

All those coaches and commentators that claim they know how and when the racket accelerates are merely stating opinions--which may be helpful or not.
Studies show the racket reaches it's maximum speed right before/at impact--obviously the collision begins the deceleration phase.

We will be doing a groundbreaking article in the future on the racket speed in Pete Sampras's serve.

[littlelobbers]

What is the Full Turn?

And is it fair to say that most pros have some sort of bend in their elbow as they take their racket back?

LL

[johnyandell]

You need to read/view the forehand articles on preparation in Advanced Tennis--the full turn is the most fundamental position in preparation.

People worry about the backswing but the body position is far more critical. There are also a couple of detailed articles there on the backswing--no two are alike and there is a variety of shapes to the hitting arm during different parts.

[uspta301008607]

Well, first time posting.

I want to ask about junior tennis, more specifically focusing on my son. He is 8 years old and I am very protective about what he does. For example, I don't want him to play on a full court. Everytime I go to play with him, I measure a 60' court and we practice on it. His mother, who does not know much about tennis, cares less about this. She doesn't care about the balls either. How much should I emphasy on playing with little/quick start tennis rules? Like, small racquets, flat balls (tip 2), small courts, etc.

Angel

[johnyandell]

It's a really good question.

I think a lot depends on the kid. The idea is to love tennis, have fun, and have success! That's the whole idea about Quick Start and transitional equipment. So unless he can have some level of success in the larger arena, that can be a negative. There is certainly plenty of time for the transition.

I would observe him and maybe even ask him for his feedback.

[lgvargas]

John, I want to review your first series of articles on the forehand, but they do not appear to be listed in the order I should review them on your site in Advance Strokes. What is the order you recommend-thanks!

[chokomakashi]

hello littlelobber... well, John does give great advice.. and from my over 10 yeras old teaching kid and etc.. let me give you my statistics....

1) start out low to high is always safe way to start tennis.. racket not straight back.. but drop so racket is make sure below the ball... and hit thought the ball...believe me i did anything to kids.. bring racket up.. straight back.. but loop is dangerous.. they will hit the ball high to down.. they don't get the concept of dropping the racket.. and if I stand next them and correct each swing then they get really frustrated... i completely againt facing racket to the right fence just like pros.. because this cuase them to change the grip to semi western really quick...

2) never give kids any target or limitation.. --this give kids some kind of hear of hitting the ball.. oh my father or coach is screating at me.. i jsut hit the ball soft... i tell them hit the ball flat and hit the ball as hard as you can , but never use the wrist... then they will enjoy hiting the ball.. if you start kids limitation.. like make sure get the ball on court.. they will never learn how to be aggressive when grow up.. just like stroke if you start wrong mind set you will hit the wall soon or later.. you have to teach kids.. you have to win tennis with your shots not from opponent's mistake....

3) Flat is the way to go... if you start kids spin.. boy forget it.. after 3 month of spin.. your grip will change to western grip and arm rap so quickly to body and ball will land service line and things get mess in hurry... believe me we will never know how much kids will grow later or not... yes top spin is great.. but if kid isn't too athletic or did not become big then.. forget it.. top spin won't be very effective.. unless you can generate so much racket speed you will never hit great top spin shots.. and not to mention you better be fast to truck down lots of shots.. and again we will never know kids have these elements when they are young...

My warming... teaching loop isn't as easy as what we think.. it is complicated.. where you place the racket and then you have to expalin kid how much you drop the racket and etc...
summary.... again.. this is not what i made up.. i just realized by teaching for over 10 years... and yes.. kids will learn loop later.. but if you are not with well known coach or just father or mother is teaching then just teach low to high swing.. watch Kimiko Date's swing.. mr Macenroe's swing.. that's the way to start.. i see many young instractor or father is teaching kids how to play and i see the stroke is just out of control... if you really want kid to start out nice loop then make sure do great research on instracots...

my advice of finding instractors

1) do no pick the instractor becuase he or she knows how to play very well
2) see his or her students stroke... and make sure see the age...
3) Find the instractor good at teaching your son or daughter's age
4) make sure go watch his lesson before you start taking one...

[johnyandell]

lg vargas,

Basically from bottom to top! Summary should work at any time...

[littlelobbers]

Thanks John

It's amazing all the other things that I don't have to mention when the kids start with a turn. simple is always best.

LL

[llll]

please if you could john look at and comment on my thread .thanks

[johnyandell]

Yep.

[lgvargas]

John, under your articles "Building the Modern Forehand", if I start from the bottom up, arm and hand rotation comes before shoulder rotation which is not the proper sequence of your articles. Please take a second look and advise me of the proper order-thank you.

[johnyandell]

Nope it's correct. All of them touch on certain issues that interrelate--shoulder rotation in this case refers to forward swing.

[lgvargas]

John, under hand and arm rotation article you say " after racket face angle and shoulder rotation the third variable across the grip styles on the modern forehand is hand and arm rotation". If I start from the bottom up under "Building the Modern Forehand", as you suggest, hand and arm rotation article comes before the shoulder rotation and racket face angle when based upon your comments above hand and arm rotation should come after these articles. The order of the articles definitely are out of order. I know your busy so why not have one of your staff members make the necessary changes so it would be in the proper order and easier to understand and follow-thanks

[johnyandell]

Sorry if you find it confusing but if you don't believe me go click thru the past issues starting say around march 2009 and you'll see the articles as they were put up in sequence. I don't think the articles are so limited that they need to be read in a precise sequence anyway...so those will be my final words on the topic, thanks.

[lgvargas]

John, thats fine if you don't want to correct the proper sequence of your articles but it would be so much easier to follow if the articles were in there proper order. Your arrogance and lack of attention to detail regarding this matter leaves me somewhat perplexed-I honestly just think that you are being lazy regarding my request. This will be my last statement regarding this ongoing problem.

[johnyandell]

I'm assuming you didn't actually verify the order from the past issues or you wouldn't have made this post. Calling me names won't change the facts--that's the order we put them up in and if you can't see or aren't willing to check that I'm sorry--you happen to be mistaken on this point.

[lgvargas]

John, I am referring to the your first series of articles listed under "Building The Modern Forehand" and not your latest articles of "Your Forehand and The Modern Forehand". They are not listed in the proper order and it would be helpful to have them put in the proper sequence

[johnyandell]

OK then. Let me take a look at that.

[johnyandell]

These 5 articles were all put up at the same time in the giant first issue 5 years ago. That's why they are still in that sequence top to bottom. If you want to read them in order, read the bottom two first, below these 5, on the commonalities and backswings, then read these top to bottom, then proceed upwards.
We'll get the order changed as soon as we have time.

Key Differences Across the Grip Styles (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/building%20_the_modern%20_forehand/key_differences_grip_styles/key_differences_grip_styles.html)
Racket Face Angle (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/building%20_the_modern%20_forehand/key_differences_grip_styles/key_differences_grip_styles_page2.html)
Shoulder Rotation (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/building%20_the_modern%20_forehand/key_differences_grip_styles/key_differences_grip_styles_page3.html)
Hand and Arm Rotation (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/building%20_the_modern%20_forehand/key_differences_grip_styles/key_differences_grip_styles_page4.html)
Shot Variations (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/building%20_the_modern%20_forehand/key_differences_grip_styles/key_differences_grip_styles_page5.html)

[lgvargas]

Thanks John. Where does the rotation and extension article along with the hitting stances article fall in the proper sequence?

[johnyandell]

There is no "proper" sequence per se. I aleady answered your question above. If you reverse the order on the 5 I mentioned then continue bottom to top, that's the order they were published in. If you don't want to see the focus on Roger or Rafa skip those. This is not a text book. It is a series of articles on the modern forehand I wrote over a 7 or 8 year period. They all (hopefully) make sense as stand alone articles.

[katie]

Enjoy your site! My question is 'how would you teach jr. players to anticipate where the ball will land before hitting the ball?

[johnyandell]

Thanks for the good words. There are two great articles by Jay Berger on Anticipation in the High Performance Development section.

My own opinion is that this is mainly the function of repetitive close observation of the flight and spin of the ball as it goes back and forth between the rackets.

[lcfulton]

Hello John,

I joined a month ago, and I have been absolutely amazed by the breadth of information available through your website. I make it a point to set aside a couple of hours each day to read through some articles, most notably under "Mental Game" and "Teaching Systems". I am a 5th yr senior finishing a business degree and Tennisplayer.net has been my #1 source of tennis education. Moreover, I have seen more personal growth as a new tennis coach over the past month than I have seen in the previous 9 months of coaching.

I feel I am seeing great results from my junior players; however one thing lacking is my ability to judge the "point" at which players need to advance to the next level with regard to grip change of the serve. More clearly, in an article entitled "Learning and Perfecting the Serve" Coach Van Horn reminds us of the importance of "stages" and "gradual development". Basically, timing is everything.

My concern? I don't want to be moving a junior player's semi-western serve grip over to a continental grip if, physically, they aren't ready. When I ask one of my student to commit to a change, I want to make sure that it is justified by all means, naturally. In my opinion the service game of my junior players is the area with the most opportunity. Consequently the overhead is a close 2nd.

How do I know if a player is physically, mentally, and willingly able to lay down the beginner grip and move toward a more versatile, long lasting continental grip?

Peace,
LC

[johnyandell]

LC,

I think it's a judgment call based on your intuition about the person. With my high school team, those kids are all 14 when they start the team and I make it a requirement then--even if they are relatively inexperienced. But the sooner the better. You have to treat it as an experiment and see what the kid does. Even if it doesn't work at first, does it look like it could? The problme is the longer they go with the wrong grip the more ingrained the problems that grip causes in the swing.

Thanks for the great words about the site!

John Yandell

[chokomakashi]

hello mr. Yandell can you please teach me how to post picture here?

i saw some member did it but i can't figure it out.. it keep saying to write web address.. thank you very much

[johnyandell]

This one is resolved...

[chokomakashi]

Thank you I got it....thanks for kind forum members...

mr Yandell any argument for me being favor of taking racket drop and through? without having loop....

Most instractors very against way of my teaching... any comments on that?

thank you

[johnyandell]

Why don't you take the time to view my articles about the backswing and answer the question for yourself? There are many possible answers to that question, not one.

[chokomakashi]

Thank you...funny that's what I usually say to my student.. do the assignment before you come to class...

well, but i was asking kind of your view... you are agree or disagree with this...


I won't say which instractor but I one of the instractor who is in this website and give tips.. and I know him personally believe that I am crazy that teach this way =) he is very good coach I beleive... one thing I like him is that he is very certain about his teaching... just like you have to do this....

through out my career and took many lessons and he is the only one told me that your teaching is not good and your stroke will break down in the long run... none of other instractor told me this way.... that's why i like him.. his opinion is very solid... I believe instractor who change things around aren't good instractors they have to stick with their believe.. if you don't like then go to other coach.. that kind of stuff....

Anyhow.. just asking your view..thank you

[johnyandell]

It's in the articles. Honestly I've seen the way you are operating in the Forum and I have no intention of giving you a response you can use in your various diatribes. Is that clear enough for you to understand?

[chokomakashi]

hello mr. Yandell. I completely understand that... I apologize for that...

[gzhpcu]

John,
I clicked on the "Free TennisTV" section, thinking of looking at Verdasco playing in Barcelona, but the site asks for payment. :confused:

[johnyandell]

Yeah the whole site isn't free. There are some features etc. Eventually we will have one archival match a month free.

They are our partners and have been critical in facilitating our high speed filming at Masters events. So what we are trying to do is reciprocate by exposing our subscribers to TennisTV.com

I was a paid subscriber myself before we had any business relationship with them. It's a great resource--easily worth the cost in my opinion.

[gzhpcu]

It is just the word "free" which I find misleading...

[johnyandell]

Well there is free stuff there, and that is what we are indicating.

[littlelobbers]

John,

This is one of the best pieces of information on the volley I have ever heard:

“The problem is that many players have one feeling or the other, and apply it on both sides. This means they end up either hitting downward too much on the forehand volley, or hitting through the backhand volley on too straight a line.”

Great stuff!

Thanks!

[johnyandell]

Appreciate it!

[littlelobbers]

What has happend with Miss Amber Park's forehand?

[johnyandell]

Meaning what?

[littlelobbers]

any new improvements or changes to her forehand?

[johnyandell]

Not sure--she works with Don in SoCal and I haven't seen her since we did the filming. Knowing Don I would suspect yes.

[nikae]

Hi, i have a question about a racket head size. I have been playing for a little less under 1 year or so, and have been using rackets with 100inch head size.

I see evryone around here (club level, beginners) usses racket with 98-100inch head size, like its some sort of a standard.

Isnt it better to use rackets with bigger head size, especially when you are a beginner?

I know Agassi used 107inch, and i am not sure any other pro player usses anything bigger then 100inch.

I frame (or off center hit) about 1/5 of the balls i hit, should i try with racket with bigger head?

I ask this because its imposible to demo a racket around here, so i have to buy it right away....and i am interested about small vs big racket heads for starters (especially old as i am (27)) philosofy.

[johnyandell]

That is impossible to answer at a distance. Myself I like 107. but I also like 11oz or a little heavier and head light--this is because I don't hit the ball that hard--at higher levels you do probably need more weight.

If you feel late at contact and like the head is dragging, or like you said,
you have trouble finding the center of a smaller frame, follow your instincts.

Not sure where you are but TennisWarehouse does have a demo program over the internet.

[nikae]

That is impossible to answer at a distance. Myself I like 107. but I also like 11oz or a little heavier and head light--this is because I don't hit the ball that hard--at higher levels you do probably need more weight.

If you feel late at contact and like the head is dragging, or like you said,
you have trouble finding the center of a smaller frame, follow your instincts.

Not sure where you are but TennisWarehouse does have a demo program over the internet.

I'll seriously think about buying new racket.

What do you mean by "head is dragging?? Because whenever i try to hit my forehand, without using wrist, i feal like the head is,well, draging, my hand (palm and fingers) are in front of the racket head at contact (or actually during whole forward swing duration), which gives the ball side spin to the right sometimes (I am a righty).

But i gues you cant help me much until i make new videos :(

[backhand]

John, Jeff says his first serve percentage (formerly) was regularly below 50%. To fully understand the suggestions you gave him, were most of his misses e.g., in the net? Thanks.

[johnyandell]

A lot were. Not sure that it is deeply relevant because a better motion is a better motion!

[jimj1961]

John,


My pro just had me switch from a Eastern grip to a Semi-Western and wants me to keep the angle of the raquet through the shot..(he calls it maintaning the edge). He is trying to get me to hit with more topspin, so I can be more consistant.

The new grip is a huge adjustment for me, since I have always played with some form of an Eastern.

I know without video, you cannot be specific. But, generally speaking, what would cause balls to be smothered and go into the bottom of the net? From the video you have posted, most pro's use a semi western grip, and have the raquet angled through impact.

Thanks,

Jim

[johnyandell]

How western a semi-western? There are at least 4 versions. And the reason to switch is? The blind pursuit of "topspin" ? ( Just a guess...)

And you are right without video it could be anything. The answer to any of the below questions could play a role in or cause the problem you describe.

how is the turn? when is it complete? Where is the hitting arm at the start of the forward swing?

What is the shape of the hitting arm? How soon and how long is this position set up/maintained? How high is the contact point? Where is the contact point in relationship to the torso? What is the incline of the forward swing? Where is the extension point? Is there wiper action and if so how much? Which stance are you using on which balls? How much torso rotation is there and when?

I would say the vast majority of even top players hit the vast majority of all forehands with the face vertical or close to it. The close faced works (I am told by physicists) at certain speed levels, contact heights and spin levels.
In general it isn't relevant to club play.

[jimj1961]

John,


Thank you for the detailed answer. You've given me a lot of food for thought, especially the blind pursuit of topspin comment. I need to rethink what my goal is in changing.

[johnyandell]

Yeah I mean the racket angle is obviously off if the ball goes into the bottom of the net, but the point is you can't really know why that is without looking at all the parts.

[littlelobbers]

Hello John,

I just lost a match tonight, a tough three set three hour match. I made a vow at the start of this season not to make silly excuses after a match. What I had not realized is how much of a crutch excuses are. They almost make as if you didnot lose. So, what are your thoughts on the issue of excuses, and how do I differentiate between an excuse and a reason?

Thank you

[johnyandell]

An excuse is I lost because my forehand was a little off. A reason is I made too many errors on my forehand.

An excuse is: that opponent was annoying and upset me. A reason is: I didn't deal with my emotions in how I reacted to my opponent.

You get the idea.

Reasons become the basis for improvement.

[tennisplayer]

That is a great answer, John - I've never heard it stated so simply and clearly before. Thanks!

[littlelobbers]

John,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to a post that I made after a tough loss. I just needed to vent somewhere. So, thanks again for having this great resource available and for attending to it so diligently. I had won the first set 7-5 and was down 4-5 in the second with a break point when my opponent hit his first serve which I played and he made an error off of my return. After the point and I had leveled the set he started yelling at me that serve was out and he heard me call it out (grunt). I changed my call then I lost the game and set. The excuse: I lost the match because he made me change my call. The reason: I lost that point because I did not sand by my call and I lost the match because I continued to play in the past. Am I correct?

I spoke with a former Olympic athlete (skiing) today, and she said “you must practice visualizing losing so that you have an idea of how it feels. Also you must play matches (ski) where you are in a losing situation so that you can overcome your emotions and focus on visualizing your technique.” This made sense to me even though, I always thought that winners just focused on visualizing winning. But, if that were the only thing that they focused on they could be crushed by defeat.

[johnyandell]

Think you are correct.

[nikae]

Hi John,

you explain differences between club and pro tennis very nicely.

I have a question about racket weight, for club player such as myself. I have been playing for about 1 year, with 300g unstrung (around 320 strung with over-grip) racket, 320mm balance.
And since I am kinda a small guy (5'9;154 pounds) i find that racket just a bit too heavy for me.

I guess professional players use heavier racket for stability because balls are hit with a lot of pace and spin in their game?

So my question is, since there isn't as much pace or spin in club tennis, I guess players can use lighter rackets? I played with a lighter racket for one set, and I noticed my timing is better, and I can put more spin on the ball since I can swing faster.

Is there anything I should know considering heavier vs lighter rackets, before I buy a lighter racket? (I cant demo a racket in this forgotten 3rd world country :()

P.S. I searched the web and couldn't get a satisfying answer

[johnyandell]

320 is still fairly light. That is the about the weight I am using, although I like a slightly head light balance.

So I don't know what you mean by lighter--half an ounce (14g) or more?

There was a trend a few years ago to super stiff super light inverted weight rackets--hammmer style. My own opinion was that there were very hard on the joints and particularly the shoulder.

So going a little lighter, sure. But those other rackets--not even sure they are much around--can be seductive til your shoulder starts to hurt.

The real problem here of course as I've said repeatedly is that unless I can see you strokes it's hard to know if problems are technical and what the role of the racket might be, so this is not a definitive answer.

[nikae]

Thanks for the answer. I will upload my strokes this week, I didn't have an expert analyse my strokes yet.

[nikae]

Here are the videos I promised. Quality is kinda bad, and camera could record only for short time, so its not much.

I'll get much better videos soon, until then I hope that its possible to see something from these:

running back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilaVKArW1Qo
low ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilaVKArW1Qo
2nd serve and 2 forehands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zkk2M77EIU
ruining forehand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3U9B-U71X8

videos are recorder during a match, not practice.

I try to do everything I learned from this site.

You can download the videos by pasting the link at www.keepvid.com , which should make it better quality and you can also see it frame by frame.

[gzhpcu]

John,
I was wondering, would you consider doing, or having someone do an article on the placement of the toss on the serve?
I find there is very little literature on this aspect of the serve.
The pros and cons of a high ball toss is often discussed, but not where the ball would land in respect to the initial position of the body, for the various serve types.
I posted a thread in the forum with a picture of the ball toss.

[johnyandell]

There is some significant stuff on the site alrady. The Myth of the Toss in Advanced Tennis, and also in the Sampras Serve article series.

Would be nice to know where it lands, yes. Of course Roger and Pete probably wouldn't be willing to give us a demo, but maybe some less well known players...

Personally, I think that the contact point is critical and if you get the contact point you want, then the toss must have been on the right flight and where it lands isn't of functional importance.

Still I get this question a lot, so I will give it more consideration.

[johnyandell]

Nikae,
My apologies as I thought I had posted a response about your videos, it's just too tough to tell much from these super wide views. Also I absolutely detest the youtube format for analysis, because you need to go frame by frame and this requires an additional download.

Try filming tighter! Look at the Stroke Archives and fill yourself up in the frame.

John Yandell

[stumphges]

Hi John,

Where does the australian grip fall in your x/y classification scheme? Thanks.

[johnyandell]

Australian??? Between continental and eastern? Not sure. Maybe a 1 1/2 --1 1/2. Others??

[wicky10s]

Hi John,
Great article on Phil Picuri's forehand.
I submitted a (rather long) post back in Feb 2009 #402 that out lined basically the same point of view that you have stated here.After that I did a little more research on this site and pulled together a collage of famous tennis players in the" top of the back swing" position at the time that the ball bounces on the court.(2 of the photos got cropped and the ball isn't in view but the others include the ball in the picture just as it hits the ground)
I am amazed to see that even the older classic players with the Eastern and Continental grips are in a very similar position just before or just as the ball bounces. Most of the players have their lower torso roughly 45 degrees to the baseline and their shoulders 90 degrees to the baseline with the non racquet arm parallel to the baseline..classic coil position with weight loaded on the back foot.
I think of this as a Hallmark position for early preparation on the forehand side.
If you get into this position by the time the ball bounces you'll have much better timing.
It made a huge difference for me.

[johnyandell]

Definitely! If you feel that position, you will probably make the ball. It can vary slightly of course and players can be late getting there when forced on time, but yeah, I think it is one of the big keys at all levels. So many club players of course start the turn when the ball bounces. Nice photos!

[chwilson]

John:

I have a few questions based off a combination of personal practice and a quote from the One-Handed Backhand article.

Here it is:

"As we are going to see in future articles, extreme players can increase hand and arm rotation and deal with lower balls effectively. It's also true that extreme players, and in fact all modern players, close the face at times as a way of generating certain combinations of speed, spin, and trajectory. We will be looking at this in the future as well. But what we are talking about are the differences on more basic drives with the racket face more or less vertical at contact."

My question is how the pros may close the racquet face to control the trajectory of a ball. I have noticed that in short court warmup with more advanced players, they can keep energy in the ball with a full swing yet keep it in the box. Lesser skilled players decrease the racquet speed quite a bit and truncate the swing. It seems that just hitting up the back of the ball instead of more through the shot (for more depth) just results in an excessively loopy ball albeit with a lot of topspin to bring it down into the box.

So my specific question is how to experiment with controlling the trajectory with the racquet face. Should contact be made vertical and then slightly "come over" the ball? Or should one hit above the equator of the ball with a slightly close face with a low to high action?

I know there is a lot of debate on the angle of the racquet face at contact, but it seems very clear it is contextual to the type of shot you are trying to hit. I would like to know how these strategies apply to short crosscourt angles and approach shots as well (given that you are not just driving the ball downward linearly but instead controlling the arc).

Thanks for your time and your great site.

CHW

[johnyandell]

Yeah you are asking some great questions and honestly I am not sure that I know the answers.

What I notice is that lower level players who try to close the racket face or wiper and mechanically emulate the pros have sporadic results.

If you are hitting 100mph groundstrokes with shoulder high contact heights and extreme backhand grips, well then, you probably close the face naturally just feeling what is necessary to control the ball. Or add the wiper.

What I say is, start where you are. Can you with your grip control the contact height, hit the ball relatively flat and deep and do that consistently? Can you loop it a bit and add more spin?

If your level is such that you cannot, then you may need to move more on top and visualize that closed face and/or wiper. You would probably enjoy Kerry Mitchell's grip articles because he deals with this issue of what to visualize when with the face.

Personally what I feel is exaggerating the upswing on the deep high balls--who knows, maybe I am closing the face. And wipering on the low short angles. It's very hard though I think for the average player to do this successfully (wiper) on high heavy balls. See last month's Your Strokes for the pitfalls there...

Then again I also feel that, for most players, many balls that people try for exotic topspin variations should really be hit with slice.

It always comes down to your ball. It's not a matter of technique for its own sake--it's how can you produce the quality of shot you need to accomplish certain goals within points.

[radionise]

Hello John,

When gripping the racquet for forehand groundstrokes, which fingers should exert more pressure on the handle than the rest?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

I think they should all be as light as possible. If you have to think about that you will definitely get too tense.

[bman]

If a pretty good player has almost no leg kickback on the serve, what is usually the cause? Minimal cartwheel action?

[johnyandell]

I think it's in the legs. Either the knee bend isn't that keep. The toss is too far back which prevents use of the legs. Or it can be balance related. Take a look at the Greenwald article in Your Strokes. Sometimes a player just needs to focus on the kick back with a drill like the hoppity hop.

[bman]

In "tennis myths," you talk about the "myth of the pinpoint stance" and how the pinpoint stance fails to engage the back leg as is commonly thought. But in "The Serve Windup," Brian Gordon suggests that the closer the feet are together, the greater the vertical push element of the serve. Are these two analyses at odds?

[BrianGordon]

Bman-

Happened to see this - here are my thoughts. I don't see that our statements are at odds. The feet closer together will create a more vertical net ground force if the back leg pushes.

There are, however, many variations of the pinpoint some utilizing much more involvement of the back leg in pushing on the ground than others. The extent of the back leg push often seems to be associated with the method of bringing that foot forward.

Recently, I relocated to Florida where I work with Rick Macci at his academy. Last week he pointed out to a player that bringing the foot/leg forward by dragging the foot on or near the ground tended to mitigate drive of the back leg - actively stepping into the pinpoint tended to facilitate more back leg involvement.

I think this observation was great and fits with the mechanics I described in the article. Of course it is a generality and exceptions can be found since nothing about dragging the foot would necessarily cause that leg not to push (other than the quality of the drive I described in the article).

So... it has been awhile since I read John's account but suggest he was probably focusing more on specific variations of the pinpoint seen by many players at all levels - variations where the back leg basically just goes along for the ride.

Now, I better quickly exit the JY zone before I get in trouble for trespassing.

[bman]

Thanks for the reply. With regard to your last point about JY and his article, the only thing I might point out is that he used Rusedski, Phillipoussis, and Hewitt for his examples--not exactly a bunch of scrubs!

I think my unscientific observation from personal experience is that bringing the foot forward may increase vertical push just a tiny bit, but I don't think the good necessarily outweighs the possible negatives from adding one more complicating factor to the serve. Particularly if one is trying to teach a relatively low level player to to serve, I think the damage it does (hips often sliding open, for example) tends to outweigh the possible benefits.

[johnyandell]

No I appreciate it BG.

And Bman responding to your posts I think that my own experience in working with players showed me that--at least for men--that the platform had many advantages. I still think it is interesting to note how the feet leave the court--and the timing between them--and I am not convinced just because the back leg is pushing down on the ground that all that is eventually translated into the motion. And I agree about the hip problem especially in the extreme pinpoint when the foot comes way around. The good serves of whichever stance just aren't wide open at contact.

Having said that I am also convinced that Brian is right and there are many variations of the pinpoint. One of the interesting things is that the top women almost all seem to use it. And I have to think there must be some reason. (Henin is the exception.) But I do believe that some tall super athletic woman will break that mold and develop a monster platform serve along the lines of Federer or even Pete.

In the meantime I think there must be other elements at play in the pinpoint--something in that motion that somehow works for some players. A few coaches have noted this to me with their women players. A few years ago I spent a day changing a top women's college player to a platform and it seemed to be obviously superior. But maybe not. For those or other reasons when I saw her a year later she was right back to the pinpoint.

The same thing happened in my work with Jeff Greenwald.

Again it's the cloning thing. We'll never have a player do both unless we clone him. Still I wonder what Safin or even a player like Davydenko would do if they changed.

I guess I am a little less hardcore than I was when I wrote that article. I still always recommend the platform, but am willing to accept mild versions of the pinpoint--especially with female players.

So the bottom line is probably every player needs to experiment for himself.

[bman]

So Greenwald went back to the pinpoint? That's an interesting update...I just read his Your Strokes a few days ago.

[johnyandell]

Read the article he wrote about the national 40s win: in mental game section, integrating technical and mental. The changes in his serve were critical in his opinion.

[chuck62]

John,

How much of the instructional series you did with McEnroe back in the 80s is on this site ? If not here, where else can I find it ?

[johnyandell]

You mean the video? Two of the music video segments are on the site. The rest only exists on VHS. I have a few copies.

[chuck62]

Yes I was looking for the video work you did with him in the 80s. I thought you might have found a way to put it on the site. Kind of the same thing you did with the Pancho G series.

[johnyandell]

Yeah I could. The two music videos are there.

[chuck62]

Saw the videos and really enjoyed those. If you get the chance putting more of the instructional series on the site as well would be really nice. I just really enjoy watching the McEnroe all court game and seem to learn so much from just watching the guy.

[johnyandell]

Request Noted!

[licensedcoach]

What is your teaching system in mini tennis (5 - 7 years), regarding a child's stance on the forehand? Do you teach a semi-open or closed stance?

I couldn't find anything on the website re the subject. I teach closed stance and racket straight back, no loop. I notice Rick Macci seems to get kids hitting open stance at an early age, but does he teach it from day one, and with kids of lesser ability?

Any light shed on the matter would be great.

[johnyandell]

I don't actually teach mini tennis since I don't have an ongoing young kids program--although I did have a big one with little courts and sponge balls years ago and we taught neutral stance.

I think we actually need to do something on Quick Start on the site.

Anyone else know the Quick Start answer?

[licensedcoach]

I've tried teaching semi open stance with youngsters but it really doesn't work for me/or them. It's too complicated because they have to consciously think about turning their shoulders whereas with a closed stance turning the shoulders is more automatic...a byproduct.

I know some coaches teach semi-open stance. I just wondered how they make it work.

This website has most things, but perhaps coaching mini tennis is one of the few things that is missing. After all, it's where tennis starts!

[johnyandell]

I agree with you on the stance. I guess if you can find a way to get a full body turn it's can work. Kerry Mitchell swears by it. And yeah mini tennis is in the future somewhere for Tennisplayer.