Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

If you have something specific to ask me, this is the place! I will try to respond to all posts.

I want to know what you think of the site and what you think I should do more of, less of, or differently. If you really like it, I won't mind hearing that either. I get a lot of my best ideas by listening, so start talking...

If you have technical questions, you can ask and I'll do my best to help. BUT as it says in the overview of Your Strokes, I'm not sure that this type of detailed, purely verbal technical discussion is always productive. In fact, I'm concerned that pontificating at length in response to written questions is often--or even usually--counterproductive.

Why? Because I believe that seeing is the basis for understanding when it comes to tennis. So don't be too upset if I express my honest reluctance to answer at length when I'm not really sure what I am talking about. That's why we created Your Strokes in the first place--so myself and the rest of the staff can actually see what you guys are talking about.

We're starting off with one subscriber stroke a month in Your Strokes. If it really takes off, we can always expand that--we can also post images here in the Forum if people make them available in the right format and size.

I hope we'll get a lot of other knowledgable people commenting as well!

[jayfro]

Hi,


I love the site and think it trumps the old site you were with by a huge margin. My question is this. Will we ever be able to do a frame by frame printing of pro strokes? I'm very interested in having 30 frame sequences that I can print off of different pro strokes. It would help the learning process greatly and be a major help to me in my teaching. Thank you.


JayFro

[johnyandell]

Jay,

Great that you like it and I will have to agree with you about the "other" site. The answer to your other question is YES, but you have to have Quick Tim Pro. It's well worth it because you can edit in it, and more importantly, right click and download ANY clip on the site. Once you have it on your hard drive select export from file and export it to an image sequence. That's it! I plan to explain all this in more detail but I thought I'd let people get a little used to the site first.
John

[vmiller]

I want to know what you think of the site and what you think I should do more of, less of, or differently. If you really like it, I won't mind hearing that either. I get a lot of my best ideas by listening, so start talking...


Ok, if you insist. :)

I like the detailed analysis that you provide and the practical recommendations that you give. For example, what makes a stroke effective, efficient, and keeps it from breaking down under pressure.

The 'Myth of the Tennis Tip' hits home. I am interested in learning more about the feel/vision approach to developing strokes. Being very analtytical and detail oriented helps me to understand a lot about technique, but I think it does me more harm than good on court.

I think this forum is a great idea. I think being able to ask you and the other authors questions about the articles will make them much more useful and effective.

Most of all, I hope your writing will continue to be a significant part of the site. You have some great authors contributing that I'd like to continue reading more content from, but I think that's a bonus rather than the main draw of the site. One of the things I don't like about TennisONE is that there is little or no common perspective. It's almost like going to a different teaching pro every time you take a lesson - too much varying information, a different teaching style to adapt to, and little hope of learning the instructors core beliefs that inspire his or her teaching.

Hope that helps.

[johnyandell]

Thanks Vin. The inspiration I needed to head to a coffee and wrok on that Federer FH article.

Agree also about the Forum. At least here there will be notable and credible people disagreeing... but seriously it is a huge problem because the amount of conflicting info is overwhelming. I use this sometimes to spur my own thinking, but I still can't make even my good friends and fellow contributors agree with me all the time...

But more better info and a place to talk about it--it's a start...

[jayfro]

John,


Thank you for the reply to my question, it's great when someone responsible for the site actually replies to questions that you have as a member. It shows that you actually care about those subscribing and that it's not just about the money like it is at a another not to be mentioned site :eek:


I have a couple of questions some of which you might not be able to answer until the next issue of tennisplayer is available.

#1 Does federer use an educated use of the wrist on his forehand? If so does it actually add ball speed to his forehand?

#2 Any chance videos of Fernando Gonzalez will be available in the next few months on this site? I'm very interested in seeing his forehand frame by frame and I want to analyze his follow through. He seems to consistantly have one of the lowest forehand follow throughs in the game.

#3 I think a cool thing to do would be to get video of Donald Young and five years from now film him again to compare any technical changes in his game.

#4 Do you work at all with the USTA high performance program? If so do you provide them with video work and analysis for junior players?

#5 It's my belief that Tour coaches or USTA coaches are teaching this low forehand follow through to top junior players such as Donald Young and other players that I won't mention. Do you think this is the right thing to do? It seems as though it's being taught in a way where they don't reach the universal finish position. Do you think this is just an evolution in the technique or just a better way to hit the forehand?

#6 As a teaching pro I've been teaching this low follow through position as well as the traditional, and reverse forehand finishes. I notice that some coaches are teaching the low follow through without signifcant lift of the ball, is this incorrect? Would this technique work if you started under the ball enough? As a general rule I try to teach the universal position on the forehand besides shortballs and inside out forehands. I just hope I'm doing the right thing and helping my students as much as possible.

#7 Any chance you guys can get access to the tornado cam used at Wimbledon and the US Open last year? I have some of the Wimbledon clips saved on my computer and the 500fps and 1000fps clips are amazing. You can see literally everything in excellent detail.

Thank you for reading and responding to any of these questions.


JayFro

[johnyandell]

Jay!

These are good questions!
1. I'm getting into that next month--not sure I really understand BBs term though.
2. Yes--we'll add Gonzo in the next few months! Horrible backswing!
3. I filmed Donald's first match, so that's one part of it...
4. Yes, from time to time. I've filmed a dozens of players for Elliot T. All the high performance coaches have our high speed DVDS. Bobby Bernstein now films directly for high performance and has a great Dartfish expertise.
5. Can't say what the majority of teachers are doing--but I do know several high performance coaches who are personally shocked and saddened by the lack of extension and the size of the backswings of so many juniors--kind of ruined for life...
6. Yeah I think you're right. But you do want to distinguish between extension, finish and wrap. The extreme grips will naturally turn over more--sometimes finishing lower and across, but you can do it with a classic type grip too as Federer has proved. There are probably 7 different versions of the forehand--according to Brett Hobden anyway. More later.
7. We'll be putting more high speed video on the site. The problem with the cameras you mention is that you can't pile up footage. They take one shot put it to tape and then erase it. You can only get a few shots here and there. Our tape based system is great though at 250 frames/sec.

[rich berman]

John,
Wonderful site in general and a fantastic site for teaching. Very easy to use, large clearn photo, and convenient going from video to video.
Well done and thanks from an old tennis pro.
Rich Berman

[johnyandell]

May I quote you?

[lefty_riosyeung]

Hi John,

Good Day! This is my first message on this forum :D I really like your Buidling the Modern Forehand series, especially the captured pictures of pro strokes for comparsion purpose. It helps me understand the individual aspect of say, forehand. Reading your as well as other famous coach's comments keep reminding myself (also reinforcing a vitrual image & feel) of how to hit a better stroke, I really like that. I'll keep posting.

Just one question now, is there any chance to include Marcelo Rios' strokes in Strokes Archives? Not just because he is my favorite player, but I think his strokes are really smooth and effortless, just like those produced by Roger Feder and Marat Safin. Also, because he's a lefty, by looking at his front image, I'm not sure if it can provide a different prespective or insight for a right handed player to execute what he or she has learnt rom viewing those mirror image of a right handed pro (sorry for me poor english, hope you understand what I mean) Too bad he retired :(

Thanks, Dennis

[rich berman]

John, I just read Allen Fox's articles about the former 'greats' and I truly loved it. Can't wait to see your site continue to improve.
Thanks again, rich berman

[johnyandell]

Dennis,

Thanks for the feedback! There are a couple of backhand clips in the Myth series of articles for Rios, but as you noted, no, since he has retired we have not been able to film him. It's too bad really--there are quite a few other players I would love to have--Graf and Edberg for example. If he ever plays senior events we'll try for that--have you seen the Backer footage by the way?

John

[johnyandell]

Rich,

Really glad to hear that. Those articles are truly gems. The one I'm still trying to get out of him was playing Connors--Allen used to kick the crap out of him when he was a kid coming up... But I do have one on that same subject coming up from Trey Waltke who grew up with him in St. Louis and it's very interesting regarding the family, and what Jimmy was like as a kid...

John

[gzhpcu]

John,
Thanks for this great site! Finally a serious and analytical approach to stroke analysis! I have an old tennis book, written in the 70's, which shows the coordinates for thetoss/ mpact point on the serve, for first and second serves for the major players. Have you ever thought of doing anything similar?
Regards,
Phil

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Great question! And yes. We have down a pilot 3D study with college players that allows us to quantify all that. We would love to put it in play with pro players--but the cost is high. We will probably have to wait for new technologies to really quantify what's going on down to the inch--which I would like to do, very much.

What's that book of yours? I'd like to find a copy it sounds really interesting.

Regards,
John

[gzhpcu]

Hi John,
The book is called, "Fundamentals of tennis" by Stanley Plagenhoef, Prentice-Hall, 1970. If you can't find a copy anymore, let me know, and I'll send you mine.
Regards,
Phil

[johnyandell]

The great Plagenhof! Yes I've read it--forgot about that part in the back with the trajectories. The PTR named an award after him. He was the pioneer and we are only really starting to follow in his footsteps!

[gzhpcu]

John,
This is what I meant:

http://www.yourupload.com/show.php/4971/serve.jpg (http://www.yourupload.com)


Of course, in those days they did not jump when serving, so it would be great to have an update....

[johnyandell]

Huh. I'll check my book when I get home--I'm traveling now. I don't remember that. Maybe Stanley did two books? Would be interesting to understand what that graph means. Might take you up on the offer after all.

[gzhpcu]

John,
As I understand it, the graph shows a number of points where the ball is thrown on the toss in relation to the feet.
Hoad and Kramer, for example, seem to have more of an element of topspin in their serves than Gonzales. Ralston seems to toss the ball the farthest ahead.

[johnyandell]

Right! I found my copy and see it now. It just goes to show--he knew more about the players in 1970 than we know about the players today...

[kenknight]

John-

Would you say that the advice at the TW (Tennis Warehouse) forums is valid and should be taken seriously? I follow the strokes in here, and read the articles thoroughly. It helps me a lot to see what's actually going on.

However, I have found some good information there. There are some posters (such as Bungalo Bill, Kana Himezaki, whatever) that seem to have informative and genuine knowledge of the game.

Would reading and attempting to incorporate that information help me, or would you say taking advice in words would probably get me confused? There are certain threads that were really a pleasure to read ("Forehand Consistency", "Why your volleys suck" if you want specifics), but had a great deal of debate concerning validity and the content itself.

Would you happen to agree with or support any information on certain websites or the TW forum? I'm trying to help both a younger brother and myself develop, and I certainly would like to not get him (and I) into any bad habits.

Thanks,

Ken

[johnyandell]

I think the TW Forum is great, and I post there myself from time to time for fun. Bungalow Bill is a very knowledgable and tireless student of the game, as are Mahboob Kahn, Marius Hancu, and some others. They are all subscribers here, and Bungalow has a great article in the works for us on the one-handed backhand.

I admit that I often don't try to follow the threads across the posts--but this is because it's much harder to visualize what many of people are saying than it is to look at video. A lot of the debates are spirited but would be settled or at least a lot shorter and clearer with imagery.

Still it's the place with the most spirited discussion I know of in the world. My only cautionary note is that anything that you find there can (and should) be tested by looking at actual strokes. AND that's what we can do here!

We are planning to introduce some more structured discussions in our Forum with imbedded movies and Flash, probably later this year.

[kenknight]

Thanks very much. The debates and people are certainly spirited, and amusing to read. :D

I remember reading Bungalo Bills analysis of Haas' one handed backhand. It had lots of images (I believe they're down now), and really helped me work out the mechanics and what I should be doing during the shot. I saved it onto my computer, and still reference it.

The other posters you mentioned (Mahboob and Marius) I have seen here. On the TW forum their insights and advice has helped me greatly as well, and are easy and simple to test and apply.

I'm looking forward to the discussions!

-Ken

[gzhpcu]

John,
I have a question regarding a serve with an element of topspin: one tosses the ball more to the left, the impact point is lower, and there is more of a brushing up action (up and out). Is there any super slow video around showing this clearly?

The hitting arm is coming up from the "scratch your friend's back" (as Vic Braden describes it) position, initially on edge and shortly before impact, begins to pronate opening up, and then facing outwards after impact.

I guess that the angle between the racket shaft and the forearm at impact is smaller for the topspin type serve (since the racket is still coming up) as opposed to a flat serve.

Is the angle between the racket shaft and the forearm for a slice serve in between that of the two? or beyond that of the flat serve?

Am I also correct in assuming that the impact zone is always the left hemisphere of the ball (seen from the back)? and more precisely the lower left hand quadrant? The lower in this quadrant the ball is hit, the more the element of topspin.

Thanks

[johnyandell]

I think basically I agree with most everything you state, with these caveats. Technically the contact is probably "lower" measured from the ground. but by probably a couple of inches at most. BUT the arm is still fully extended at the elbow. I wouldn't think of lower contact. Hit up and extend to the ball--as you said the toss creates the different contact point.

Look at the Sampras 1st and 2nd Serves in the rear views in the Stroke Archives for the best examples.

So far as the exact contact point on the ball, not sure about the "quadrant" concept. Could be correct. We need to film at about 10,000 frames a second to check that. I think it's more the line or angle of the swing. This is indicated by the angle between the racket and the arm at contact. The more the shaft tilts back to the left, the higher the topspin component...

[ignite]

That idea of the lower left quadrant is pretty much on the money.

As you hit a topspin or particularly kick serve you really want to hit up and across the back of the ball. This gives both the element of topspin but also some side spin so that as the ball hits the ground it will move to the left of a right hander, particularly useful on the backhand side of the court.

The hitting position should be lower to promote hitting up the back of the ball more, if the hitting position is too high then there will be less loop on the serve.

Anthony

[gzhpcu]

Thanks. What I am wondering it how much lower the impact point is for a serve with some topspin as opposed to for a flat serve, and the difference in angle between the racket and the forearm.

[johnyandell]

Don't really know about the height. Look at Sampras from behind and tell me if you can really tell much difference--we're talking a contact point 9 or 10 feet above the court. It's at best a scientific question, rather than a coaching question. And yes, someday we will quantify that, I hope.

Same with the angle of the racket. Look at Pete's arm. It's fully extended.
I would focus on the toss and the extension and let the other things happen to the extent they happen.

[gzhpcu]

I know, but I am still curious. I was discussing this with a friend of mine who really thought he was hitting a serve with an element of topspin a lot lower than a "flat" or slice serve. I really mean a lot: about a foot. Seemed to extreme to me. I saw little difference when he served.

Maybe it is just the the trajectory of racket? More of "inside - out" then with the other serves? Maybe just hitting the ball slightly earlier while it is still coming up from the wrist pronating?

[shadowhawk]

Hi John,

Great site! The quality of information here is outstanding!

I was wondering for the subscribers who are willing to throw down some serious change and willing to visit the bay area, if there was a possibility for them to get their strokes on video and get an analysis with you or any of the instructors at your school.

I expect it's tough to see a legend but I had to ask!

[johnyandell]

Mr. Shadowhawk,

I am doing a (lmited number) of video analyzes in SF. If you (or other subscribers out there) want info on that, email me if you would at videoten@isp.net.

Thanks,
John

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Regarding your earlier post in this thread, yes, I think it's the racket path, the "height" is just a consequence of that.

[111112]

Hi John
>
>I have another question for you. My son is nationally ranked 15 y/o.
>He has trouble turning the tables on his opponent. That is when his
>opponent is in charge of the point and he is on defense, he wants to
>try and hit a offensive shot and turn the table on his opponent. Any
>drills or advice you have toward that situation that we could practice?
>
> :)

[kenknight]

I'm sure John will come up with better advice, but 111112, you should try the article "Neutral Tennis" by Kerry Mitchell in the "Classic Lessons" section.

It's exactly about the same stuff you're looking for.

Your son should definitely not try to immediately hit a big offensive shot when the other player is in control of the point. Instead, he should aim for one or two shots to give him time to recover and position himself to get back on the offensive. So a deep slice or high, deep topspin ball down the middle would be a much better option.

[johnyandell]

Yeah I'd have to say that's a great place to start. The other factor goes beyond the technical. "Knowing" what to do and doing it aren't the same.

It's much tougher mentally to neturalize and try to stay in a point and fight than it is to try a big shot. Taking a swing and a miss is an easy out mentally. I don't mean that as a judgment. Some players simply do not have the temperment to counterpunch or defend, including some who have been at the very top of the game--and maybe they shouldn't try. I just got back from LA and watched Mark Philippoussis self-destruct in exactly the same way. But his game also got him to the Wimby final.

He only knows one way to play. Every player has to determine what will be his way or ways. Sure it's easy to say do this or that. And maybe your son will develop the ability to do what you want. The more confident a player is the more he is often willing to fight and hang in. Federer plays amazing defense. But a lot of this goes to style of play and personality type and in evaluating a player's progress it's a mistake to just base it on theory of what a coach thinks is appropriate. (Now myself, I love to through up a nice deep topspin moonball and have my opponent start the point all over again...)

[martin]

The article seems to end in mid stream? 'Let me start by...' - nothing follows. Where is page 2 or next article

[johnyandell]

Martin,

Not sure which article you are referring to. There are two Visual Tennis articles, both of which are there in full on the server. Have you got the URL and I can check into it.

John Yandell

[mhuddleston]

Any chance of getting clips of Gasquet on here? I'm in love with his backhand and would love to see some clips of it so I could study it.

I love this site! I get on here and just can't stop. Before I know it, hours have passed. Thanks for so much great info in one place.

[vmiller]

Any chance of getting clips of Gasquet on here?

And Blake too? :)

[johnyandell]

We had a chance to film Gasquet in Montreal. We need to film him again though to put him up in the Stroke Archives--usually we film at least 4 matches.

We also filmed him in high speed so some of that may make it into articles and also the high speed archive.

Blake we have. (Vin.) We'll put him up sometime before the end of the year. Great to see him back--we've been waiting and hoping that would happen.

So glad to hear about your experience with the site.

[johnyandell]

As mentioned just above, we plan to put james Blake up by the end of the year, including his forehand. Not prepared to say anything at present because I haven't looked at it closely--appears to be a fairly mild semi-western with a lot of arm rotation on a lot of the balls.

[gzhpcu]

I have an old video on the serve by Vic Braden, which I find still one of the best videos around on the serve. The points I particularly like are: 1) keeping the face of the racket downwards during the wind-up, 2) the "scratching a friend's back" analogy and tossing the ball forward and a to the right for speed and low strain on the shoulder. The minimal height on the toss is perhaps still controversial (we aren't all Roscoe Tanners...), but still, I find, high ball tosses are disadvantageous.

What are your thoughts on this video? Any points you are not in agreement with? Thanks.

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Vic is a pioneer and much of what we know about the game we have learned from him. I consider him a friend. Some of the filming with Tanner et al is just great to watch. But I think there is pretty much a consensus in coaching that not only are we all not Roscoe Tanner, none of us are. Kevin Curren? Maybe he was Roscoe Tanner. (Vic I know doesn't agree with me to much on this point--and that's OK with both of us...)

No one ever measured the spin on Roscoe's ball. I wonder if it might be quite flat and what spin there was, I bet was primarily sidespin.

I've never seen a player, including some top 100 players I have personallly worked with who could hit with that toss. In the modern game the toss is going to be more to the left. That is what allows a topspin component. Not sure where Roscoe's toss was exactly front to back--but Pete, Roger, Andy--and all the rest--make contact just barely in front of the edge of the body. It's also going to be much higher.

So I really agree with the his view on the racket drop along the right side--he debunked the myth of the backscratch a long time ago--although amazingly it's still widely believed.

Like Vic, Cliff Drysdale also loves to criticize the high toss. But it can't be that bad if so many great players use it. The real issue there isn't height. It's timing.

All things being exactly equal a low toss won't be affected by wind as much, but the issue is mute if you can't get the racket thru and make the racket drop position Vic identifies. Pete beat Andre in one of those Open finals when the wind was about 50mph--so I just don't see that being much of an objection. The real reason the players toss high--to give themselves the interval they need to execute the full motion with a comfortable rhythm.

I also know Vic doesn't emphasize the knee bend too much, but I will disagree there as well. And the deeper down you go, naturally the more time it takes, requiring more toss height--at least if you want a smooth motion that feels really great as it unwinds into the ball... Yeah I can throw the ball out to right and in front and hit it real hard myself--the problem is it just isn't going to go in the box.

[gzhpcu]

John,
From the Vic Braden video, I saw, Tanner did not seem to jump as high as they do nowadays. His racket trajectory after impact was predominantly extended way out in front, not so much inside-out towards the left (right for a righthander) as the top servers do today. It did seem like a very fast flat serve with just a bit of slice to me, as you say. Looking at Sampras, Federer, etc., after impact the racket moves off at an angle to the right. This gives more top and sidespin, but less blinding speed as in Tanner's case. The pros on Braden's video, seem to hit the ball at the edge of the body as you say, I think his message to throw the ball well in front is just to get more body lean (and thereby speed). What about his argument that to avoid rotor cuff injuries, it is better to throw the ball off to the right?

[vmiller]

What about his argument that to avoid rotor cuff injuries, it is better to throw the ball off to the right?

I would think that's based on the argument that letting the humerus (upper arm) get above the plane of the shoulders is more of a risk to the rotator cuff.

But if you look at most current players that hit further to the left, their upper arm is still in line with the shoulder plane at contact, or close to it. The difference is that the shoulders must be tilted more for the upper arm to stay in line. Take a look at Roddick.

So, if this is the case, internal rotation is going to occur at the same angle in relation to shoulder plane, which I think suggests that there wouldn't be much difference, if any, in the amount of stress to the rotator cuff.

If anyone could prove this wrong or add any further information, that would be great.

[gzhpcu]

Hmmm...think you might be right... looked at Sampras... he really leans to the left when serving, with his left shoulder much lower than his right shoulder... so, the compensation is to go forward, but leaning towards the left....

[johnyandell]

Vin's info is more detailed than anything I have. Are you in med school at night Vin? Vic always talked about Tony Roche ruining his shoulder. I guess I'm not sure what the answer is, except to say if the whole thing is relaxed with the contact still in front, my instincts are it's fine. One thing for sure, that's the way the top players are going to continue to serve for the foreseeable future...

[vmiller]

Are you in med school at night Vin?

No, far from it. :D I guess I'm almost as much of a health and fitness nut as I am a tennis nut.

I hesitate to make posts like that since I lack the background, but I wanted to get some discussion going.

There's some mention of what I said on easitennis.com. For anyone who is a member, there is brief mention of it here:

http://www.easitennis2.com/members/ServeTilt.htm

They don't say why, but I figure it's because the arm being higher stretches the rotator cuff further and it's doing it's work to slow the arm down in a vulnerable state.

[gzhpcu]

BTW: Referring to Plagenhof's book again:

He has a table entitled: "Height of throw above the contact point among some top tennis players"

0-1" Newcombe, Graebner, Talbert
1-3" Seixas, Savitt, Palafox, Emerson, Osuna, Pilic
3-5" Ashe
6-9" Gonzales, Sedgeman, Hoad, Laver, Roche
9-12" Kramer, Mulloy, Richardson, Rosewall (1969)
12-15" Stolle, Ralston, Smith, Santana, Connolly
15-20" Smith, McKay, Rosewall (1952)
20-24" Lutz, Santana, Garcia, Drysdale, Barthe, Brough
24-30" Chaffee

P.S. John, Your article on the Sampras Serve, entitled the "left launch": doesn't this also illustrate Vin's point?

[johnyandell]

What was the point--it was a long post...

[gzhpcu]

That when you throw the ball more to the left, you lean more to the left, your right shoulder is higher, your left shoulder lower....

[johnyandell]

OK yeah. To tell you the truth I never look at the relative level of the shoulders. The reason is I think that happens automatically. It's the consequence versus cause thing again. Seen a lot of people mess up their motions trying to artificially create shoulder tilt, or whatever you want to call it.

On the injury issue, I am not qualified to have an expert opinion. Pete made it thru 20 years plus with that serve. But it would take someone with a knowledge of the differences in the motions and how that affects the internal structures--and someone not predisposed to one answer or another--to give us a framework.

[shootermcmarc0]

so when can we expect articles on the one hander in the advanced tennis section? what you did with the "building the modern forehand" section was just awesome.

[johnyandell]

eventually yes. there will be a great new one-handed bh article in Nov from none other than Bungalo Bill...

[shootermcmarc0]

I just finished reading The Inner Game of Tennis, and it completely changed the way I approached the game. I plan on purchasing your book as well (is it available here?). So I was curious, how do you feel about the ideas in the book? I read a few excerpts of your book from Amazon and it seems like similar ideas, using visualization and not trying too hard. I really look forward to reading it.

[vmiller]

I just finished reading The Inner Game of Tennis, and it completely changed the way I approached the game.

If you like that book, check out the CD titled Fearless Tennis by Jeff Greenwald. It's basically a modern extension of the same ideas. Because it's a CD, you can listen to it over and over on your way to matches and the ideas really start to sink in.

[shootermcmarc0]

If you like that book, check out the CD titled Fearless Tennis by Jeff Greenwald. It's basically a modern extension of the same ideas. Because it's a CD, you can listen to it over and over on your way to matches and the ideas really start to sink in.

Vin, I read the reviews on amazon and they look good. Thanks for the suggestion :)

[shootermcmarc0]

Hey John, I just rented your book from the local library today. Didn't get started on it yet because I've been swamped by school :mad: I have the one with the green cover, is there a revised edition or anything out there? The book they showed on amazon had a different cover.

[johnyandell]

Yeah that's the first edition. Out of print for several years. The second edition is the one with the purple cover you saw.

[shootermcmarc0]

What are the key differences between them?

[johnyandell]

I think it is a sleight difference in the path of the racket. With more topspin, the racket tip will be inclined more back to the left at contact. If the racket is straight up and down, that is zero topspin, all slice. Some of the women are close to that. Every increment of incline is an increment of topspin. but it's impossible with the ball too far right.

Yeah and your friend is not perceiving correctly Could be an inch lower measured from the ground, but the arm is still extended.

[saintvaidhya]

hi john can you tell me how i can download web pages of your site and view it when i am travelling,when i tried the video clippings are blank except few pages where the videos are downloaded.my question is it possible to view the pages,when i am offline.thanks for the reply.
keep up the good work.john.

[vmiller]

In your browser, use File -> Save As.

[johnyandell]

Yes, correct--but it won't save the Flash animation files--those can only be viewed on line. If you print the articles you will get an image of one frame of the animation.

[alvero]

Dear John,

I am enjoying your site tremendously. I like your writing style and the analytical tone of the articles.

I understand you are a busy man, so I'll try to be brief.

1) There appear to be a tremendous difference, mostly in the backhand, between girl and boys at all levels. Can girls be tought Kafelnikov, Safin, Nalbandian type of backhands without potential risk of injury. Or they should be tought the bent/bent type of backhand that most girls seem to prefer.

2) Some reputable coaches advocate Roddick's close together feet as a breakthrough in the modern serve. Having read your article on Pete Sampras' serve, the two lines of thought would seem to be advocating different views. Does Rodick' stance allows for extreme torso rotation? What's your take on this?

Thank you in advance,

Alvero

[johnyandell]

Alvero,

Excellent questions for which I don't think the answers are certain. Regarding the junior girls I would tend to let nature take it's course. If you teach them the grip shift, and have them hit both one-handed backhands and lefthanded forehands, you give them the feel to put the arms together.

Since the turn and the set up of the arms at the start of the swing and the finish are similar across the hitting arm combos, I would gloss over the exact positioning at first, and then film them. Chances are high they will be bent/bent naturally and then you can fine tune. But if I saw a kid who seemed to be hitting well with another combination, well, I would tend to encourage that!

On the serve, again, two different players, many differences in the motions...
pluses and minues to all the differences. You are correct that with Andy's stance he is never going to turn off the ball like Pete or even Federer. But with his quick motion that'd be tough anyway.

A hypothesis is that Andy might is getting more leg drive--trading that for rotation. Again, I think that the only way to tell what works is for players to experiment. Most younger players should start with a squarer stance. Now what happens? Is the natural rhythm quick with a low toss? Is it smoother and slower with a higher toss?

My own preference is for something like Federer--I think the quicker motions are a lot tougher for most players to master and be consistent with. BUT again experimenting based on how a player is coming along is the way to go.

I know those aren't really definitive answers--maybe because I don't believe in them--or at least we don't have the evidence to prove anything for sure one way or the other. I just think it's important to be strict with the core fundamentals, but also open to a range of variations that you see with top players.

Regards,
John Yandell

[ruymendes1]

John,

I used to read a lot about tennis on paper and on the web, and take lessons two times a week, for an hour. Only play sets occassionaly.
When I change the routine, whith the addition of another three times a week play, with different opponents, I had significant progress.
Do you believe that someone only can achieve a strong development in tennis whith a minimun of five days a week contact whith the game?
Thanks,
Ruy

[gzhpcu]

John,
Someone was going to send you a Roscoe Tanner serve video sometime back. Anything ever come of it?
Thanks

[johnyandell]

No never got it--can't remember who--but if it comes in I'll put it up!

[gzhpcu]

John, it was GMann who offered to send you a VHS tape of Roscoe.
P.S., I PMed him a reminder... :)

[johnyandell]

OK it's on Gman.

[jasonahuang]

Hey, is the free trial of tennisplayer.net still valid? I tried to reach you but I don't think you recieved my messages. Anyways, I was referred from the tennis-warehouse.com forums. I would like to have a free trial of tennisplayer.net.'

You can email me at jasonahuang@gmail.com

[grimmbomb]

I was wondering if you will have Marat Safin in Stroke Archives any time soon?

BTW, best tennis site there is!! Keep up the good work!

Thanks
Bryan

[johnyandell]

We are hoping he is healthy so we can film him at Indian Wells this year. We have some footage but not enough yet. There is high speed footage of Marat on the Advanced Tennis DVDs. www.advancedtennis.com (http://www.advancedtennis.com)

[grimmbomb]

We are hoping he is healthy so we can film him at Indian Wells this year. We have some footage but not enough yet. There is high speed footage of Marat on the Advanced Tennis DVDs. www.advancedtennis.com (http://www.advancedtennis.com)

Sounds good. And thanks for the quick reply.

[jkfisch1]

John

Can you expand a little on the quote I copied out of previous response from you concerning childrens forhand

"5. Can't say what the majority of teachers are doing--but I do know several high performance coaches who are personally shocked and saddened by the lack of extension and the size of the backswings of so many juniors--kind of ruined for life..."

I understand the extension gut could you expand on the "size of the back swing? Have 6 kids and when you say ruined for life on an aspect it grabbed my attention.

Joe Fischer

[johnyandell]

Joe,

Well that may be a little dramatic, hopfully nothing in tennis ruins anyone for life...but the backswing can permanently limit the potential of the forehand, or so it seems to me.

The backswing doesn't prepare the racket initially. So when players learn to start the motion with the backswing and move the hand too soon they tend to limit their turn and oftentimes end up with a huge loop.

Go check out Myth of the Backswing in Advanced Tennis--it's all laid out there.

John Yandell

[robertfirlus]

John: You've may have noticed that Federer while waiting service twists his racket in a counter-clock-wise direction and then gets a grip just before his opponent serves. Do you have an idea of what grip he has when he is waiting serve. Is it sort of a neutral grip... or maybe continental....and then he goes to forehand grip or whatever. Robert Firlus

[robertfirlus]

John: Roger Federer has a very large hand...long fingers, long palm. Do you have any idea of his hand size? ...measured from the tip of his ring finger to his midpalm crease. Altho his racket grip size is said to be L3 I think conventional tennis wisdom suggests his grip size should be several sizes bigger than it is. John McEnroe also had long fingers and palm compared to most. Do you think this might affect Federer's tennis style...large hand versus small grip? (Go to Google Images/Federer and you can find an image of Federer holding those long fingers/palms in the air. Robert Firlus

[johnyandell]

I don't know about his hand size. Looking at the picture of him holding the racket I guess it could also be a small grip but I'm not sure.

On the returns, he has what I call a modern eastern forehand grip. Pete's grip for the forehand drive. On his forehand groundstroke Roger shifts down that increment discussed in the articles.

[shootermcmarc0]

When can we expect Ljubicic clips? His 1hander is quite fluid.

[stroke]

His serve looks like it would be a good one for John to evaluate also.

[mdhubert]

Hi John,

First I want to thank you because I think i've made a breakthrough in my serve motion thanks to you. I had an issue with my racquet drop, I couldn't find a proper one, and I followed your advice of adopting a classic motion like McEnroe and Philipoussis with the arm far away behind in the back swing. And I finally get the feeling I'm doing a decent racquet drop. I still have to shoot the movement to be sure but my motion is pretty fluid, especially on second serve, so I think the improvement is here. It's been a while I've been working on it and I think I (and some teaching pros who tried to help me) was too much focused on the "trophy position" that is highly advertised everywhere, and I think it is sometimes tough for beginners. I think you should focus on learning a movement that leads to the racquet drop first and then the trophy position will come later, when you have felt what shoulder rotation was like. If you look at Mac or Edberg serves, I think what is key is more the supination of the forearm in the backswing. Don't you think focusing too much on the trophy position can limit shoulder external rotation in certain cases ?

[johnyandell]

Shooter,

When can we "expect" clips??

I don't think you mean it quite the way it sounds. I think what you meant to say was "Is there a chance of... or do you plan to..." Expectation implies entitlement.

I'm sure this is just a semantic problem, but I won't be held to any "expectations" about players or content by subscribers--other than to keep the quality as high as possible of everything on the site.

We weren't able to film Ivan this year and I'm not sure when we will if ever--depends on circumstances.

However I think you can busy yourself with the other 20,000 clips on the site.

It's always interesting to look at new players. But one of the pitfalls is thinking "if I could just see so and so..." It's not like that.

[shootermcmarc0]

Yeah, thats what I meant, I didn't intend on putting any pressure on you to get footage of him or anything.

[johnyandell]

Great! You know we'll try. To be honest I do get a little defensive at times because I feel we have so much material available nowhere else. I bristle a bit when people ask for the (relatively few) players we don't have.

[shootermcmarc0]

Ever since I've been a subscriber, I've always been more than satisfied with each issue. The quality has always been high, I've never read any negative comments about this site. I'm always learning here.

[johnyandell]

Cool and thanks!

[jlkm2219]

Few months ago I asked for clips of Nikolas Kiefer. In my opinion, one of the best hitters in the tour.

Thank you.

[johnyandell]

Well can't say it was because of your request, specifically... But I agree he is very efficient, compact, balanced. Looks effortless. Great timing. Great movement. I actually like his antics--gives matches a little more unpredictability.

[shootermcmarc0]

Great timing. Great movement....

His ball toss is really high, he does have great timing haha

[mntlblok]

I actually like his antics--gives matches a little more unpredictability.

I actually get a kick out of them too and look forward to his interactions with Coria today. But, that deal with Grosjean at the Australian was way beyond antics.

Coria isn't above getting into staring/glaring contests with his opponents, but I found it most endearing when he high-fived Ginepri at the net after a long point at last year's U.S. Open.

Saw Coria interviewed on a practice court at the Nasdaq and he had a huge smile the whole time. He's one of my favorites on tour.

Kevin

[mordredsjt]

First off, since this is my very first post, I would like to say thank you to John and every single one of the contributors here at tennisplayer.net. I've found the site to be an invaluable resource. It has really given me some new perspective on my own game, and the game of my students.

I'm a tennis pro, and have recently started a new position. As soon as I am up and running I am planning on purchasing a camera and a laptop so that I can begin including video into some of my lessons. This is something I have thought about before, but the your strokes section of the site has totally convinced me. I have a good grasp on the hardware side of things. My question for John is, can you recommend a good software package that won't break my bank? I'm looking for something that would allow me to go into video I record on court and immediately mark reference points for my students. I will also be editing footage and burning it to DVD for my students to take with them, but I have a decent grasp on that process already. Mainly I am looking for some kind of analysis software.

Again, I'd like to thank you for the website...I could sit and watch videos of Sampras all day long :)

[johnyandell]

I'd recommend you check out Motion Pro. There are a few posts about it somewhere in the Stroke Archives Forum I think. Even some examples that a subscriber did.

Here's the link: http://www.pdsoftec.com/

David Hill is a friend of mine and if you have any questions I'm sure he'll be helpful and thanks for the great words.

[mordredsjt]

Thanks for the reply John, I'm checking out motionpro and it looks great so far. I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions for David Hill.

[jayfro]

Thanks for the reply John, I'm checking out motionpro and it looks great so far. I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions for David Hill.


MotionPro is very good and very affordable, David is great with answering questions and you just can't beat the price. I've been using the software since last summer and my students really enjoy the side by sides with pro players. You can also burn the side by sides on DVD or CD (I believe) so they can have a copy to keep. Do yourself a favor and pick it up.

I know my clients really appreciate having those DVD's and it's something that is pretty rare in tennis right now. It really lets you stand out and certainly can increase business. I've just accepted a new position as Director of Junior tennis at club and I'm sure some of that had to do with my website and work with MotionPro.

At some point in the future I hope all teaching pros are using some form of analysis software to really help students learn the game.


Jason

[johnyandell]

Hey Jason Thanks Believe it or not I still just might do that Your Strokes with you and/or your bro

[jayfro]

Hey Jason Thanks Believe it or not I still just might do that Your Strokes with you and/or your bro

I can send some more clips of my brother and myself via email so that gives you more material to work with. What is the email addy to send them to again?


Thanks John

[johnyandell]

go with this one: videotennis@metricmail.com

[jayfro]

go with this one: videotennis@metricmail.com


I sent a bunch of clips hopefully I have enough footage for you.


Jason

[johnyandell]

Huh. No sign of them.

[jayfro]

Huh. No sign of them.


I just resent the clips, hopefully you receive them this time.


Jay

[johnyandell]

Strange very strange.

Try jyandell@tennisplayer.net and copy it to jyandell@advancedtennis.com if you don't mind...

[jayfro]

Strange very strange.

Try jyandell@tennisplayer.net and copy it to jyandell@advancedtennis.com if you don't mind...


I just got an error message back, file sizes aren't small enough to be sent via email. I'll try it later if I have time.


Jason

[johnyandell]

Try attaching them here in the Forum--otherwise maybe a CD??

[brenda]

Hi John :)

Maybe it is a great Idea to get a new music video about Rafael Nadal, I think that is one of the great players now a days. But he is still missing in the music video. I would really enjoy if you would make a music video about him :cool:

Thanks a lot!

[johnyandell]

It'll happen--sooner or later...

[barry]

Your web site is quite helpful. Which of your articles do you recommend for help on "seeing the ball" better. What techniques are there, that would help improve?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

Great question. We don't really have anything on this specifically, although it's one area we will probably develop. The bible is the "Inner Game of Tennis" if you haven't read it.


But there is also some interesting work by Scott Ford. Quite technical but worth looking into:http://www.arete-sports.com/

[CraigC]

John-

I have been working a lot on racquet speed with my players and have developed some pretty solid results. However, although I know what I want the results to be, ( a faster and heavier ball) I am having a hard time defining the term racquet speed in a biomechanical sense. Can you tell me what is happening to make the racquet move faster? The arm is going fast, and if the wrist is truly staying in the laid back position, then racquet speed should be based on the rate of the arm movement. But this is simply not what I am seeing. I see a looser grip, a more relaxed wrist, and acceleration of the racquet head through the hitting zone. Help me here, please.

CC

[johnyandell]

I think we have to be careful throwing around quantitative terms like "racket head speed." A few people have measured it, and obviously the ball speed and spin reflect the racket head speed, but for a given player on a given ball talking about the speed of the arm versus racket is assuming facts not in evidence. We need a lot more knowledge to corelate visuals with quantitatives here.

Re: the wrist. I agree with you that things should be loose and relaxed. I also have said all along that on some balls the wrist angle may decrease before contact--or increase and the same is true after contact. It stays further back longer on inside balls and releases soonest on lower, shorter crosscourts.

So it's tricky. I'm quite certain these movements aren't due to contraction of muscles. My own opinion is that the fbasic eeling is of hitting the ball with the palm of the hand.

I think that making the ball fast and heavy doesn't boil down to one thing: it's the coil, the hitting arm set up, some idea of the contact point range, the idea of the wrist back if soft at contact, and especially the extension positions. Ad to this the hand and arm rotation depending on grip, ball height, spin.

I think it's looking like a lot of strokes over time and seeing how the shape conforms to the top players on certain similar balls.

[CraigC]

That response reminds me of the gopher in my backyard. Every time I take a step toWards him, he ducks straight back under the ground.

I'm putting the call out to all Exceedingly Wealthy tennis patrons. FUND JOHN YANDELL'S Advanced Tennis Research Project so he can give us more complete information. He is the the most advanced researcher on the sport and is taking us to higher levels in coaching and playing. C'mon, someone, anyone, just a feW hundred K to help the cause!!!

CC

[johnyandell]

Not to much to ask right?


Brian Gordon has the technology to do these measurements in something close to real time--we just need to make an agreement with him and finance a major data collection and analysis.

[gzhpcu]

Referring to Stanley Plagenhoef's "Fundamentals of Tennis", 1970, he states on page 87, that "the final important factor in obtaining control and ball speed is the firmness of the grip on impact. A vigorous body motion, in attempting to reach high racket speeds, may very well result in less hand control, which will result in loss of ball speed and accuracy". He then has a figure showing the relationship between ball speed, racket head velocity, and the striking mass (which is dependent on the grip firmness) for first serves.

He concludes that (at that era), "it is not beneficial to have the racket contact point travelling faster than 70 to 75 mph for consistent serving. A higher racket velocity makes it difficult to hold the racket firmly, so nothing is gained by it.

Pilic hit two first serves, which differed by almost 30 mph, with the same racket speed, for example.

[johnyandell]

Yeah he was the pioneer--but remember that was back in the wood racket days when top players were 5'7".

[shootermcmarc0]

Great question. We don't really have anything on this specifically, although it's one area we will probably develop. The bible is the "Inner Game of Tennis" if you haven't read it.


But there is also some interesting work by Scott Ford. Quite technical but worth looking into:http://www.arete-sports.com/

I read a few of the articles, seems pretty interesting. Do you know of any pros (past or current) that use those vision techniques? When I watch slow motion replays, it looks like they use the serial mode and not the parallel. It seems like they are always watching the ball instead of the window.

[johnyandell]

It's an interesting question. No pro is going to say "I'm using the serial or parallel modes." They haven't even heard of it or care. But what do they really do with their eyes? There are plenty of pictures of contact points where the pros do not appear to be looking at the ball. You can also track the ball softly with your eyes without focusing on it. The part I think is most interesting about what Scott says is that you can't stay focused the whole way because of how the eye works.

[gzhpcu]

Yeah he was the pioneer--but remember that was back in the wood racket days when top players were 5'7".

Yes, I know John, that racket technology and fitness have changed the game. Yet isn't grip firmness on impact still relevant?

[johnyandell]

I guess the prevailing belief in coaching now is that "firm" often turns out to be "rigid."

The idea is to hold onto the racket just tightly enough that it doesn't fly out of your hand. The motions obviously have to be very precise, but they should also still be as relaxed as possible while keeping their shape.

[gzhpcu]

True John, but what I meant was only firm at impact not during the whole swing...

[lukman41985]

The idea of getting firm right at contact, to me, has a couple of problems:

1.) It's hard enough to time the contact correctly to begin with, so asking someone to get firm at contact would make things even more difficult I think.

2.) The idea of getting firm at contact may introduce tension into the stroke at the most crucial moment. Maybe the thought should be to be as loose and relaxed throughout and to extend through contact.

3.) Overall it's probably better to keep things simple. Focus on the positons and achieve all of them throughout the stroke with a minimum of tension--stay relaxed! Everything else seems secondary.

Just my opinion. Interesting postulations though Phil!

[shootermcmarc0]

3.) Overall it's probably better to keep things simple. Focus on the positons and achieve all of them throughout the stroke with a minimum of tension--stay relaxed! Everything else seems secondary.



Agreed. If I think way too much about certain things I end up destroying my swing.

[gzhpcu]

Agree, but I did not mean to imply you have to think about it. I just meant that the impact will be heavier if the grip is firm. The tightening of the grip is a reflex action, but you can train to have more strength in your grip...

[jhm36]

Just to get it out specifically what I'm sure most everyone is aware of, the relaxed grip is clearly great if you're hitting the ball on or very near the sweet spot of the racquet, but I've found that if I hit the ball closer to the frame with that ideally loose grip that the racquet will twist in my hand and the ball fly out of bounds. So if I'm having a tough day timing the ball, watching it, focusing on where it will be, etc, then I have to increase my grip strength to get more control over those balls constantly hit too close to the frame. Along with this grip change I'll start hitting more off-speed balls, slices, approach the net more often, try to hit with less top spin and try to punch the balls into the corners, visualize the ball staying longer on the racquet and my guiding it more where I want it to go. Not the most exciting tennis, nor the most powerful or penertrating ground strokes, but it does help me keep the ball in play during those mis-hitting periods.

[lukman41985]

Agree, but I did not mean to imply you have to think about it. I just meant that the impact will be heavier if the grip is firm. The tightening of the grip is a reflex action, but you can train to have more strength in your grip...

I have some questions:

1.) Why would the impact be heavier if the grip is firm?
2.) What's a reflex action? and;
3.) How exactly is tightening the grip a reflex action?

[lukman41985]

Just to get it out specifically what I'm sure most everyone is aware of, the relaxed grip is clearly great if you're hitting the ball on or very near the sweet spot of the racquet, but I've found that if I hit the ball closer to the frame with that ideally loose grip that the racquet will twist in my hand and the ball fly out of bounds. So if I'm having a tough day timing the ball, watching it, focusing on where it will be, etc, then I have to increase my grip strength to get more control over those balls constantly hit too close to the frame. Along with this grip change I'll start hitting more off-speed balls, slices, approach the net more often, try to hit with less top spin and try to punch the balls into the corners, visualize the ball staying longer on the racquet and my guiding it more where I want it to go. Not the most exciting tennis, nor the most powerful or penertrating ground strokes, but it does help me keep the ball in play during those mis-hitting periods.

My opinion is that a better fix (better because resorting to increasing tension, to me, is never good in sports) would involve:

1.) Resolving where on the string bed you're tending to hit: Closer to the top cross string, the bottom cross string, the leftmost main, or the rightmost main?
2.) Make compensations with swingpath and/or body position to make contact near the sweetspot.

Here's an example scenario:

i.) A player is serving and on this day is tending to make contact high in his stringbed (near the top cross string).
ii.) As a result the player, the player is trying make compensations to make contact lower in the stringbed and closer to the sweetspot. I think there are a couple of options to remedy the situation (maybe there are more, but I can't think of them):

a.) Toss lower.
b.) Wait for the ball to drop lower on the toss.

So my opinion, again, is that it's better to make adjustments to swing path and body position than to increase grip pressure. To me, there are two reasons why increasing grip pressure is not a good fix:

1.) You're still mis-hitting which sacrifices accuracy and power.
2.) Increasing tension makes successful stroking more difficult. One has to hit the key positions, but flow through them in a relaxed fashion. Especially on a stroke like the serve. The server, by increasing body tension, may limit or debilitate his ability to hit key positions on the serve that can only be made if one is relaxed--a prime example is the racquet drop. Increasing tension also increases the chance of injury!

However, every player has his own way of getting out of ruts! Do what works for you. I fix myself in the fashion I just described and it works great. I'm sure tightening your grip works great for you too. This is just my reccomendation to you.

Hopefully more people jump in here. It's fun to see how players make adjustments during the course of playing.

Thanks for sharing everyone!

[tennisfan04]

John,

Many thanks for a terrific website and awesome articles.

What frame speed is used for regular and slow motion video? I am trying to get a sense of the speed with which pro players complete different parts of their strokes. I am advancing frame by frame by using the right arrow key.

Best Regards

[jhm36]

Sorry, Lukman, I missed your earlier post. Your advice is right on for me concerning letting the ball drop. No doubt about it when I'm having a tough day serving, if I concentrate on being more patient with the ball drop and letting it fall more I make better contact. Thinking about keeping my left (non-hitting) shoulder up helps as well. Less knee bend too.

[johnyandell]

TF04,

Funny you should ask that now. The regular stroke archive is filmed at 30 frames/sec. The High Speed Archive is 250 frames a second. BUT it renders on the web at 125 frames.

There are some new options we just added, and actually I am going to be emailing everyone and solliciting their feedback about this.

The Safin Archive is 60 frames. Federer Version 2.0 is the same clips as the other high speed Fed clips BUT rendered at 250 frames.

The difference is a slight (but noticeable) loss of image quality.

I love the quality of Aaron Martinez's incredible compressions. Twice as many frames are good as well.

So I can see it both ways. What do you guys think??

[lukman41985]

Please stick with the new changes, John.

[awolf]

Are you aware of any correlation between injury potential and open versus neutral stance. My non-imperical observation of recreational level players as a teaching pro is that there seems to be greater injury frequency for players using the open stance versus neutral stance. These players are not in the same physical conditions of the pros and often misjudge contact point thereby hitting late or early. The juniors want to emulate the pros and therefore are reluctant to use the neutral stance.

Any comments?

Arthur
Toronto, Canada

[johnyandell]

There are a lot of knowledgable people that agree with you about injuries although the belief is it has as much to do with the grips which increase torso rotation, and to some extent the rackets, as stance per se. Paul Roetert of the USTA for example.

And there is another group that thinks the opposite. Open stance is completely safe and injuires come from incorrect use of stance--such as trying to step in with an extreme grip and twisting against the front foot and leg as we explored. Brett Hobden for example.

I don't know of any studies about this--or even how you could create comparative data bases. Doesn't mean they don't exist. One point to consider is the shift in grips and stances leads to more backcourt play and longer points and more pounding on hard courts.

But a lot of old time players with eastern grips who played on grass now have 1 or 2 artificial hips.

The extreme style is here to stay--I think that they only thing coaches can do when working with playere established in this style is try to make sure their technique is sound and that they do the off court strength training.

[tennismaverick]

I thought the June article was excellent. I've been puzzled by the differences in stances and the explanations I have heard as well. I think your insight is far superior to many teaching professionals who usually give a blanket statement that you should always hit with an open stance or always hit with a neutral stance. Then when you point out that the pros frequently use both stances they retort with the “pros just have greater athletic skill.” That seems to be their answer for any anomaly for which they don't have a good explanation. Fortunately for us mere mortals, the answer is more complex and by dissecting the shots a person can cull information that will help them even if they are athletically inferior. Not everyone has the athletic or visual talent to mimic the pros successfully. Once again, great article. Thanks.

PS I hope I am posting this in the right spot.

[johnyandell]

Maverick,

Think you got it well. Thanks for the feedback.

John Yandell

[safin_rod]

John.When do you think you will make an article about Andy Roddick's forehand like the one about Roger Federer.I think i will be interesting

[johnyandell]

There is a lot about Andy's forehand in the Differences and Similarities articles in Advanced Tennis. I am going to summarize our forehand findings also in the next few months and he'll be one main example.

[tennisfan04]

John,

Great website and terrific articles. In one of your posts, you mentioned that most of the racquet speed is generated not in the looping take-back, but in the forward motion from the "double bend" position. Quite often, I see intermediate level kids not have enough time to finish the loopback and the forward motion especially when the opponent hits a hard shot. Given this, shouldn't kids at this level be told to get the racquet in the double bend position as they are getting ready, since this will simplify their stroke and increase their chances of making clean topspin contact. As they get better, they can always do the full motion instead of a two stage process. John McEnroe's strokes show a very abbreviated (almost no loop) take-back and that probably had a lot to do with his ability to play well on the rise and his legendary quickness.

Best Regards

[johnyandell]

Couldn't agree more. The big, circular loop is a sacred cow. Unfortunately, it doesn't function the way so many coaches think. If you look at the Lansdorp FH article there is an amazing animation of Pete age 10 or so--very compact classic loop--no closed face elbow lead etc.


More on this coming next month!

[JanWaechli]

it would be very intressting to know the % of grips for the top 50 players. women and men! also the relation of preferred sourface they play on. can you do that? and will you cover the women anytime soon?
thanks, and greatings to gangi from jan

[johnyandell]

Good question. It's very tough to see the subtle differences in the grips--the top 50 players looking player by player, that would be tough. I spent a lot of time looking at a lot of video to get the ones I did. It's there as a research project for someone though... you just need to spend a few dozen hours in the stroke archive.

I think the biggest percentage of the men are 4 3 1/2 as I said in the article, but I haven't counted. In general we suppose that more extreme grips go with clay, but not sure the corelation with type of court always holds. The better players tend to win--that's the bottom line--yeah maybe the grips have an effect when you get to Federer vs Nadal on red clay.

The women will will be looking at as a separate series. They are definitely more conservative grip wise--more in the Agassi to Nalbandian range with few excepts (Petrova, Groenefeld).

[kurtvanhook]

John, I can't tell you how much I enjoy this site....just renewed for the year.
The clips are just unbelievable....your approach to athletic movement gets me thinking about other fluid sports movements that demand this type of analysis

Ideas for satellite sites - or a bonus addition to this site. I realize that this is probably a cost-prohibitive dream....but one can dream, no?

1) golf swings (pga/lpga tour players)
a) golf swings of current/former ATP tour players (Lendl, Sampras come to mind)

2) Baseball batting swings : how sweet would a Rod Carew/TonyGwynn library be?

3) Baseball infield : Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, Jeter.....fast and slow studies of them fielding balls at short and throwing to first....I could seriously watch that kind of stuff all day long.

4) baseball pitching - Koufax, Ryan, Clemens....wow.....

5) Basketball jump shots : Again, I could watch Mike Bibby, Peja, Tony Parker, Wade, shoot j's all day.

[kurtvanhook]

Hi John,

Here's what I've found after carefully considering your comments on my admittedly "weird" BH racket takeback (and after hitting and videotaping many many balls over the last few days) :

1) Grip : Part of the reason that my racket was angled was that my grip was off....not quite eastern backhand but more rotated more towards a continental - subtle rotation but definitely a problem. This made it hard to make the racket vertical on the backswing. When I get the grip right, shot is definitely better.

2) From studying the Gaudio/Federer/Phillipoussis/henin/Kuerten BH clips, I see that the racket initially goes back perpendicular to ground with the unit turn, but racket face always is "pulled up" by the left (non-dominant) hand so that the face is level to, or even above, the head, at the completion of the backswing. This element, which I think is key (well, at least to me it is!), is not mentioned in the Phillipoussis BH article, nor in the one-handed backhand portion of your book "visual tennis". .This element facilitates a loop, of course, and more racket speed. Timing is a bit more of a challenge than with my previous, flawed, straight takeback, but when I get this sequence correct, I get effortless power.

3) The biggest bonus I'm getting out of the looped, elevated-to-my-head backswing, is that now I can power through balls that are a little bit higher up in my sweet spot wheel-house strike zone. Before, the always-low takeback would force me to take all of these balls 1)on the rise, or, 2) with a high slice. Now I find I can rip through them with an efficient low-to-high swing angle....as shown clearly in some of the kuerten slow mo BH clips.

This has been a huge epiphany for me, John, and sincerely thank you for this insight! When I think I've got it right, I'll send you more clips if you don't mind.

I'm off to the US Open Qualifying....do you want to to file a report from the field?

Kurt

[leis]

John:
Has anyone reviewed video to look at grip change techniques, especially under shorter time periods such as the service return? It seems that many of the pros open the fingers of their racket hand prior to a forehand or backhand grip commitment(your high speed footage of Justine Hardin). When the racket is rotated, there will be less grip resistance during rotation. Many one handers seem to switch to a backhand grip with a small pivot of the racket at the junction of the hand and index finger of the racket hand. The non racket hand simply pulls the racket throat to pivot the rotation. Extreme grips obviously have further to travel for rotation and techniques probably vary. It is not inconceivable that someone in the future could have such an extreme one handed backhand grip that they could use the same grip for the forehand by simply moving the arm over to the forehand side without a grip change!!

[johnyandell]

I haven't looked at the timing of this over hundreds of clips, but you do often see the top players relax their hands in the preparation phase. For example, Haas does it, but Federer doesn't.

I'm not sure it's a big deal. The grip shift is easy and natural and doesn't take that much time or ususally cause problems for experienced players.

There were some Spanish players who did exactly what you are suggesting re: one extreme grip. Just turned the hand over without switching the grip.

[leis]

John: Loved the 3 finishes article. At a tennis sport science conference several years ago, I heard the reverse forehand referred to as a "buggy whip" because you pop the whip upward. I like to use that finish on a topspin lob for some reason(probably because my opponent pressured me while at net and I caught the ball late).

[johnyandell]

Lansdorp says it's the best for the topspin lob.

[jstr]

What % of the time on volleys near the net should one feel like "catching an egg " on the strings instead of more of a more aggressive put away type action? It seems that aggression leads to "swinging" the racquet which leads to errors...

[malice]

I would like to ask for some help regarding the BH slice-drive.

I have read most of the Slice articles (mainly Mr.Trey Waltke's) on the site but i just cant seem to hit the Slice-BH with any authority whatsoever.

My main problem is often hitting the ball long by quite a large margin.

I cannot seem to square off the racquet face for some reason , especially when i increase racquet head-speed.

A habit has developed on my BH slice , whereby i shift my grip closer to that of a heavier - BH grip to square of the face. This however robs me of alot of pace and penetration , resulting in "floaters" unless i really use a severe downward chop.


Basically , how do i go about

- Squaring my racquet face for contact
- Hitting through the ball for slice
( Am i suppose to take the ball far infront of me or closer than a topspin drive ?)

Please let me know if you need any other specific details

Thanks :) and AWESOME site !

[johnyandell]

Don't TRY to square the face, It doesn't have to be square and isn't on many bhs. Of the deflection of the hit causes it to be square only.

Look at the Don Budge slice drives in the Stroke Archive.
Also read the article in Your Strokes on Carl Sutherland's slice drive.

You want to try hit through with the angle of the face set.

Also if you use that stronger grip it's going to float period. Mild continental is ideal.

[malice]

Ok just went back to read the stuff.

Just for confirmation.

Preparations are identical to the topspin , however..

- Use a continental
- Prepare the angle of the racquet face to be partially open
- Move straight through the shot , relying on the angle to generate spin.

For clarification , is it good to imagine a somewhat similar topspin backhand's swing path ?

Did i get that right ? Going out to hit tomorrow , gonna give it a shot.

Thanks again and sorry for taking up your time

[johnyandell]

Yes, except that the height of the racket head should be at about ball level at the start of the forward swing.

[leis]

John: Any thoughts on learning soft court footwork, including the slide. I knew of some pros who untied their shoe laces during practice on hard courts because they couldn't get access to soft courts that day. The untied shoe laces forced them to stay balanced or they would run out of their shoes. It also helped them quickly adjust to the "tippy toe" movement needed to initiate a running motion - a motion that hard court players have difficulty with when trying to quickly adjust to certain types of soft courts.

[johnyandell]

Excellent question and I would say the obvious--play a lot on soft courts. But I don't even consider myself knowledgeable and haven't done any sliding in quite a few years.

Someone else has to know more.

[malice]

Haha , been testing my new slice style over the past few weeks John.

I gotta say that it's truly a PLEASURE to hit now haha.

Thanks a HEAP sir :)

Been improving so much over the past few months

[johnyandell]

Good news. Good news.

[hyperwarrior]

Hi Mr. Yandell,

I love your site and I guess every members received an email saying we have a one gift subscription per subscriber. :D
I sent a name and an valid email of a friend a few days ago and I'm wondering if it takes times to get the subscription or maybe the email itself failed to reached you?

Thank you for your help and this is a great gift for a tennis friend. :p

[johnyandell]

Post it hear in the boards again. I have received literally hundreds of requests and it's overwhelmed us somewhat.

[hyperwarrior]

Post it hear in the boards again. I have received literally hundreds of requests and it's overwhelmed us somewhat.

Thank you Mr. Yandell. I received an confirmation about the subscription earlier and happy holidays! :)

[jasonahuang]

Hi Mr. Yandell,

I requested a membership trail for my tennis buddy Alan Wang last week. However, he said that he hasn't received the invatation yet. Anyways, his email adress is tenniskrzr@gmail.com

Thanks again Mr. Yandell
Love your website.

[julian]

I think basically I agree with most everything you state, with these caveats. Technically the contact is probably "lower" measured from the ground. but by probably a couple of inches at most. BUT the arm is still fully extended at the elbow. I wouldn't think of lower contact. Hit up and extend to the ball--as you said the toss creates the different contact point.

Look at the Sampras 1st and 2nd Serves in the rear views in the Stroke Archives for the best examples.

So far as the exact contact point on the ball, not sure about the "quadrant" concept. Could be correct. We need to film at about 10,000 frames a second to check that. I think it's more the line or angle of the swing. This is indicated by the angle between the racket and the arm at contact. The more the shaft tilts back to the left, the higher the topspin component...

It maybe a diffrent quadrant if serve is aimed more at the body or the T

[veena]

Hi John,

great site you've got going. I have a question regarding the legs in a serve (forgive me if this is on your site, but I have not read all of the serve articles yet). On the pro serves that I've been looking at, Sampras and Federer, they start in platform but their legs come together in the air, and then separate. Should the club player imitate this kind of footwork on the serve?

Thanks

[johnyandell]

I think if you use a moderate platform stance--more Fed than Pete--have good balance and ball position, that leg action will happen. If anything you need to key the back leg kicking back and away as it is at the landing. Trying to bring the leg up is confusing a cause and effect. Work on the kick back and a balanced landing.

[veena]

I think if you use a moderate platform stance--more Fed than Pete--have good balance and ball position, that leg action will happen. If anything you need to key the back leg kicking back and away as it is at the landing. Trying to bring the leg up is confusing a cause and effect. Work on the kick back and a balanced landing.

Okay, so I guess I'll hit the court and concentrate on that back leg. Thanks.

[malice]

Hi John.

I seem to have a problem with my forehand that i would really appreciate if you could offer some advice with.

I currently use a grip in between an Eastern forehand and a Semi-western one.

My problem is , i am a little unsure on how to cut down on hand and arm-rotation when attempting to flatten out a ball for pace.

I used to use a slightly more extreme forehand grip , along the lines of Coria/Ferrro-esque grip and developed a habit of rotating the outer arm.

This is not done consciously(?) as i tend to use a very loose grip and allow the racquet-arm to swing as freely as possible to allow more head-speed to hit-through , for some reason , my arm always rotates a great deal , i ASSUME it's due to it being completely relaxed.

Now , after i have swapped to a more conservative grip , my hand-arm rotation STILL seems to turn a great deal , far more than the pro footages of those who use similar grips. (Mr.Agassi to be specific)

It aids me when i need to hit additional spin , however i find it very hard when trying to flatten out and attain maximum extension through the ball.

What i have tried , is consciously aligning the racquet head and keeping my hand-arm from rotating , however this feels very awkward for me and i was hoping if there was a way to help me in doing so.

When hitting "flat" , i use a more linear swing path , however due to excessive hand-arm rotation , i often end up with a rip cage finish or something closer to a more "extreme" grip finish and this happens almost all the time when i'm executing on muscle memory . I noticed that Agassi finishes very high after executing a penetrating shot and i end up nothing even remotely close to this.

I hope you could understand that wall of text , i don't really know how to convey it across in words better >< .

[johnyandell]

Without seeing the preparation phase it's very hard to answer. You probably aren't turning and don't have enough leverage to hit without rotating the hand.

Send in a video and I might be able to see more.

[malice]

T_T

I don't own/know anyone with a video camera as of yet , i intend to get 1 once i start working after i'm done with my studies.

Hmm , i'll try to study more footage for now until i can send in a video or figure out the problem.

I'll pay attention to my coiling and leverage in future when hitting for starters.

Thank anyway :)

[johnyandell]

I could make some stuff up but really it's flying blind. Get a hold of that camera.

[popsnz]

Hi John

I find the "your strokes" section the most informative part of your web site. It is only through seeing the mistakes of other less than professional players such as me that one can appreciate the technical inadequacies that are often common to all us hackers.

I wonder if you could give me some advice. I often feel that much of the ideal stroke preparation is designed for younger, faster and more flexible tennis players and not middle aged guys like me. To illustrate my point I often feel that to hit a single handed backhand topspin regularly with the correct grip and adequate shoulder rotation requires one to be much faster and more flexible than most 45 year olds are capable of because the pace of shots in today’s game. As a result I am often hitting balls out of position which leads to inconsistent results. As a consequence I tend to slice my one handed backhand and hit maybe 10% with topspin reserved only for those slower balls.

If I had a middle aged backhand that had as its basis a less radical grip and required less shoulder rotation I would be in a better position to hit more topspin backhands. True they would not have as much topspin and would not be "ballistic" in nature but would be able to be used more often.

[johnyandell]

I actually agree to a great extent. You probably should be hitting most of those backhands with slice.

The right ball hit with the right spin is a question of level of play, but also time and court position.

A hard, relatively flat slice drive can be just as effective as a topspin drive, and sometimes more. So I wouldn't stress trying to arbitrarily hit topspin for it's own sake.

Have you read Trey Waltke's article in Classic Lessons on the Slice Drive?
With many adults I actually use the Don Budge slice backhands from the Stroke Archive as the model. Look at the Your Strokes on Carl's slice backhand as well.

It's something I eventually plan to write about on the site in more detail.

[johnyandell]

PS: Your Strokes will be back. I've had quite a lot of requests for it--just taking a break and changing it up.

[popsnz]

Many thanks John. I have seen the Don Budge sliced backhand which was a revelation. I have not yet read the Trey Watke article but will do so tonight.

Regards

Myer

[tiff3872]

I was wondering why players do not close the face down on the wrap finish on the backhand side. Watching stroke archives and reading all your articles I see a lot of forehand finishes that close down the racquet face after impact to create more topspin yet all backhands seem too square up the racquet and just finish out front and high while maintaning that angle. I have been working with my daughter having her finish in the waiter position creating much more topspin equal to her forehand. So my question is are the tour players just using the backhand as a rally shot working to set up a big forehand?

Warm Regards,
Andrew

[johnyandell]

It's an interesting question. Definitely the backhand and the two-handers are being hit flatter in general. But if you saw the last one-handed backhand article you can see that is changing with more hand and arm rotation.

The two-hander could be next. If you look at Clijsters she tends to turn the hand and arm over. Robin Soderling does it although we don't have him in the archive. I've seen Ferrero do it and even Agassi in our high speed filming--not necessarily on the site at this minute.

If you look around I bet you'll find a few good examples. I don't hit the shot and am not familiar with the feel or risks, but apparently it is going to be part of the future.

[ochi]

John, you and your site are astounding -- way too much for me to absorb, but I love to dive into it. Someone who's met you told me that you are "a double-A type." I believe it.

Thanks to your serve analysis in the April issue, I am about to start taking my tossing hand down lower and raising it a little slower. Here is my question: I noted -- not for the first time -- that Sampras always cocked his serving hand wrist as he took his racquet down next to his leg. I've noticed that some other top servers do this, too. An excellent instructor/server told me long ago, after a USPTA meeting, that this was referred to as "the cobra."

What is the value of this? Is it a wind-unwind thing that increases snap?

Richard

[johnyandell]

Actually I think that's triple A.

Good question and I am not really sure how it could have an impact on much--the racket travels so much further to get to the drop before it even goes up to contact and the hand changes positions several times.

I could be missing something but it's probably just a feel thing almost a ritual.

[ochi]

Wow -- Triple A! That is intense. Having been a newsman/editor for decades, meeting deadlines, wanting every issue to be as good or better than the last, I understand it. Having a patient wife, or being single, helps a lot.

Last night, I asked a 31-year-old former touring pro/instructor what he thought. (He dropped out early because of asthma, and his wife told me a while ago that he beat Safin and Roddick before they broke through). He said he had not heard of the term "the cobra," but that cocking the wrist at that point eliminates needless motion before the strike. He also agreed completely with the thrust of your latest "Your Strokes," and then he casually served one pistol shot ball to demonstrate -- if I had been receiving, and it had come right at me, I either would have blocked it somehow, or been tatooed for a week.

[jayfro]

John,

I've enjoyed the two hand backhand breakdown and analysis you did previously, but I have a question with grip placement. It seems as though many or most pro players (men) tend to put the index knuckle on 1 or 2, but where does the heel pad line up exactly? Would that put the heel pad between 1/8 if you have the base knuckle on 2? How about if you have the index knuckle on 1? I've been trying to figure out the heel pad location to better help my students with the backhand grip, and I haven't been able to find good pictures to show heel pad placement.

Jay

[johnyandell]

I don't think I've seen a two-hander with the index knuckle purely on 1--maybe on the edge between 1 and 2 at the strongest. But mostly on 2.

I general I think that when the knuckle is on 2 the heel pad is squarely on top, ie, mostly on 1. It might overlap toward 8, but I wouldn't purposefully rotate it that way.

Some of the guys may even be shifted slightly toward 2 with the heel pad. And I agree, it's hard to be totally precise not only image wise but grip size and hand size wise as well.

[jayfro]

Thanks for the answer. I've looked up some images but it's been tough to find decent images taken at a good angle. This appears to be a strong 1 position with the heel pad, but it also could be between 1 and 8. I've also seen some images of Nadal where he's strongly on 1 or between 1 and 8. I think 1 is the safe bet.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/73460692.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1930F65A344AAC8D07096D3CCF8E3B6B96D

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51497848.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19390335F8FA9CA92A63A80030336428F47 59D55AD35CA51490

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71786438.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABBDAA63E68ED990189

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/57121446.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE8D34EAA56E5BA89F

I don't think I've seen a two-hander with the index knuckle purely on 1--maybe on the edge between 1 and 2 at the strongest. But mostly on 2.

I general I think that when the knuckle is on 2 the heel pad is squarely on top, ie, mostly on 1. It might overlap toward 8, but I wouldn't purposefully rotate it that way.

Some of the guys may even be shifted slightly toward 2 with the heel pad. And I agree, it's hard to be totally precise not only image wise but grip size and hand size wise as well.

[johnyandell]

To me Nadal (remember small grip handle) is definitely centered on 1 as is Agassi.

Djokoivic is slightly weaker, and looks like Murray is also.

[leis]

If this has been discussed earlier, my apologies. When using a step-down footwork pattern to hit a down-the-line forehand, my swing thought is to swing parallel with my shoulders prior to contact. A golf swing thought came to mind. I closed my shoulders a little(probably contacted the ball later) and tried to swing parallel with the now closed shoulders which made the swing inside-out. This made it very easy to hit an extreme crosscourt. With a little dip of the racket head and the inside-out swing, I could hit the extreme crosscourt dip. The same principle applied to hitting a normal crosscourt shot, but with a little less shoulder closure and a less extreme inside-out swing.

I recall watching a pro manuever a closed shoulder at the last second to hit what seemed to be a down-the-line backhand shot. However, he swung inside-out and hit the extreme crosscourt dipper (which is so effective in clay doubles when the opponents are both at net and you can hit at their feet).

I don't know how this might translate with an open stance. This swing thought helps me to remember how to hit this shot. Am I way off base on describing this??

[johnyandell]

Leis,

One thing that is important to know in addressing this question is that all groundstroke swings are inside out in tennis. You'll see a remarkable demonstration of this in Jeff Counts' new article in May.

I believe that on both sides the hand and racket start relatively in the same place from ball to ball, at least as far as distance from the body goes.

Obviously there have to be differences in the arc of the swing to account for different shots.

I wouldn't be surprised if Brian Gordon has already accumulated data on it, but so far as I know it's never been measured and analyzed.

In the absence of that data I think the best we can do is visualize the swing paths and the flight paths of the shots, and let the images control what happens. Definitely on the short or dipping angles this can include more rotation of the hand and arm.

Regarding your shots specifically. First, as is probably well known, I don't like analogies to other sports. But beyond that we would need some video to determine whether the factors you mention are happening or not happening for sure in the way you describe.

That may not matter though if you have found an effective way to key the shot. Keys don't always have to correspond with reality exactly, they just have to work!

[leis]

Thanks for the analysis John!

[tennisfan04]

John,

Kudos for an absolutely terrific site.

Could you point me to any articles on the site or the forum that discuss how to locate a serve (forehand, backhand or into the body)? Whenever I have asked this question to smart minds, I have never really gotten a good answer.

It is awesome to read absolutely clear and incisive analysis in the advanced tennis section that does away with so many myths, and which breaks the complex strokes down into small segments. It would be great if we could get your insight on how to place a serve.

Thanks

[johnyandell]

The difference is probably very slight in terms of the path of the racket, and even if it could be measured, would be very difficult to manipulate mechanically. You have to have a sound motion, obviously, with a toss that isn't too far right for sure, and unless we looked at your serve on video there is no way to tell this.

Assume that, however, and then basically what Nick says on the wide and T serves holds. It's a matter of visualizing the racket and ball path.

In general the body serves are hit with more topspin. So the image is of the racket brushing up the back of the ball and then continuing out toward the target. You can take the racket to the contact point and create an image if you wish.

On the court, use target. Imagine the racket and the ball traveling on the path to the target and take that feeling into the swing.

[malice]

John , could u direct me to an article on key positions to achieving a swing path that is more in line with the ball.

I seem to have developed a habit of breaking of the line of the shot with an unwanted external arm rotation which im hoping to get rid off as it seems to dissipate my energy into spin rather than pace.

Watching some strokes from the archives (hewitt/sampras), i've noticed some players move the racquet in a fashion whereby the racquet comes inside out , straight into the ball and end up pointing directly at the net/opponent in it's path where the arm does not rotate at all and the racquet is kept almost entirely on edge. I've tried it out and it feels rather un-natural for me to shadows-swing this path but is it advisable to stick with this over-compensation ?

[johnyandell]

Look at the Advanced Tennis forehand article on Commonalities Across the Grip styles.

I isolate the finish position for the forehand drive. Wrist at eye level. Right hand at edge of left shoulder. About 18" to 2 feet spacing between the hand and the torso. This position shouldn't be straight out, but somewhat across.

There will be hand and arm rotation, but the amount varies with the grip. There is also a good representation of this position in the Osmosis forehand article.

[malice]

Alright , Thanks again.

And keep up the great work on the site ! Best thing that ever happened for my tennis :)