Backhand Poach in Doubles

[bottle]

My favorite doubles shot is a poach BHV on the return to my partner's serve.
If I hit a soft, pushed volley while trucking well I am fairly accurate, aiming at the net person's feet or right hip. My shot usually doesn't come back, but if the net person is really good, he or she can hit a soft bloop crosscourt to the service line I just vacated. A great partner who goes specifically THERE may be the answer, but I'd rather put the ball away myself since great partners aren't always available. I need better racket work and probably have tried many tricks. I need to hear from anyone who does this well. I'm very interested and would make any technical change. What do you do with your racket to bang the return really hard at the net person's hip?

[johnyandell]

Bottle,

I am pretty sure I know what the problem is. The Poach volley is inside out--but players try to hit it technically like they are volleying down the line in singles.

It's all about the diagonal of the target line. You HAVE to turn your shoulders unitl they are parallel to the target line (or pretty damn close). AND you have to do this WITHOUT increasing the size of the swing and in particular the size of the backswing.

Practice with a cone--set it exactly where you want the ball to bounce. Now don't even move your arms--turn your shoulders until your right shoulder points at the cone. Now you will naturally crush the ball. Better yet send us some video. See the Your Strokes area for how to film it and where to send it.

John Yandell

[bottle]

I'll try that great idea, which, duh, hadn't occurred to me.

[bottle]

Thread theory wants more fishing here. The reply was terrific, but opens up new questions about inside out mechanics-- the easier hard volleys for me have been outside in. There is nothing more frustrating in tennis than setting up the poach, fooling the receiver, taking off and finding oneself in perfect position, then hitting a well-aimed shot that comes blooping back to an awkward place. I love my new shoulders position which is helping me get more stick on the ball for sure, but am influenced by TennisPlayer's new footage of the Federer and Tilden BHV-- with fantastically simple arm work similar to John Alexander wearing a sport jacket and sitting at a table slowly extending his arm over and over from his still elbow. (This occurs in the old Australian Master Tennis video series.) One wonders-- does power then come all from the body with weak but effective arm work, or from vigorous
muscular effort within the arm, or is it totally non-muscular...can the arm be passive and snap from linear body travel cut off, slight rotation of shoulders cut off, slight rotation of hips cut off, or a combination-- what's best, in
ANYONE'S opinion? I don't need a perfect answer incidentally. I just want to explore.

[davehagler]

:cool: a lot of what you do with your volley depends on the kind of ball you get. Backhand volleys should be (they are for most competent volleyers) easier than forehand volleys because your backhand is your "front" side and when you hit a forehand you have to get the racquet out in front of your body. On your backhand if you turn your shoulders your racquet is out in front of you. If someone hits the ball at you with tons of pace you can hit a very good volley without moving your feet at all. HOWEVER, whenever you have time to move you should. If you look at video of really good volleyers like Rafter, Edberg or Henman you will see that they move their outside foot (right foot on a forehand and left foot on a backhand) first. The outside foot step is usually small, then these players really move through the ball. The amount of racquet work varies. Most good volleyers seem to hit better when they get closer to the ball - although they can all hit lunge volleys well when they are extended. Some players (like a certain american with a huge serve) can hit lunging volleys well but that is about it. Another misconception is that great volleyers use one grip and one grip only. Great volleyers are flexible and adaptable. If you extend this to other areas of the court this is why Federer is so good. There is no way that a player can effectively hit a forehand volley that is two inches off of the ground with the same grip they would use to hit a backhand volley that is two inches off of the ground. How about a ball that is shoulder high - would the same grip as the two inch high shot work?

Volleys are fun, because sometimes they are mostly footwork and at other times they are mostly racquet work.

In terms of your poach, if you poach from the add court and are right handed the ball should be coming in to you at an angle (ideal) if you are closing moving forward at an angle. The biggest mistake I see is players trying to poach and moving parallel to the net. If you are poaching from the deuce court I have to assume you are hitting a lot more forehands than backhands.

The short answer is to do as John suggests, but really move though the shot so your sources of power are the opponent's pace and your forward momentum.

Later :)

[johnyandell]

Well said.

[bottle]

Well said, but not the only option available for dealing with different-sized volleys. People used to hitting continental just may not hit the high eastern volley as well. I don't think I'm a contrarian, but I wonder-- when the oncoming ball is a little bit high, we're very close to smashing, aren't we?
And what is the grip we use for that? Continental. So do we really want to adapt an elaborate, variable grip scheme for just the balls of in between height?

Some sort of invention or special adaptation here has seemed predicted throughout the history of tennis instruction. Rod Laver tells how Harry Hopman taught everybody to run their thumb up the back of the racket for a high BHV. Personally, I'm trying to change my fond, accustomed grip less by using the convoluted yet healthful arm positions shown to me in a bar by a martial arts student and innovative tennis pro. That would be back of hitting hand facing ear for the high FHV, palm of hitting hand facing ear for the high BHV. The experiment has been going well so long as I take the high ball late and employ the same hitting structure as a Kramer BHV only with arm folded at start and finish (with arm similarly and belatedly increasing length-- but inside of a compressed not open U). It's kind of neat being able to hit high balls close to the head.

If this shot doesn't prove the best I can do in match play, I will, of course, abandon it in a flash. For me forehand volleys on poach to backhand side occur 30 per cent rather than 90 per cent of the time; but, I'll work on this by starting farther from the net, and thanks for that.

[bottle]

Note how no one challenges or refutes or supports. Why no indignant reply from some tennis-playing expert in iron palm? A mere graduate student in biology, one would think, might question whether I heard my information correctly in the late night bar. Did I get things backwards? Was it palm facing ear for the FHV and back of hand for the BHV?

But, as Rick Macci says in his article here, The Andy Roddick Serve,
"It's scary, you know, but to be honest, the average club player doesn't want to go through that. The reason why people don't improve is they don't experiment. They are afraid of what will happen in the short run if they experiment." Not just club players.

So, are tennis players in general a bit dull? Could they, with just the slightest change in basic attitude, start coming up with fascinating discoveries as Roddick did with his serve and Lendl with his forehand?
These two guys-- and Chrissie, Monica, Valerie, John, Pete, Jimmy, Bjorn and a dozen others-- were kid scientists of the first order. And kid scientists are the real scientists, always. They had mentors or didn't, but in each case they were the one who did it. Why don't we lionize them for THAT? And since they're alive, except for Arthur and Vytas, why don't they go ahead with new, equal discoveries?

[bottle]

No one wants to talk. This may be good. Nothing wrong with talking to oneself. One won't go blind. Waugh said people can call you anything they want so long as they don't call you pigeon pie and eat you up.

The alternative volleys are simply not bad enough to dismiss-- not yet anyway. I am eighty-eight per cent sure, however, that my idea of how to hit them has been all wrong along with my assumption that they are designed for high balls alone.

Dave Hagler further delimited the discussion when he expressed his preference for trailing poaches into the alley. This means that despite your closing path toward the net, you crossed the oncoming ball and maybe got hit. Will tennis pros ever understand that what they say, no matter how brilliant, has no substance whatsoever except in how it is received?

So, we start with Brown's unquestionably interesting advice: back of hitting hand to right ear, palm of hitting hand to left ear. In the future: getting Brown's name straight, tracking him down in Washington, D.C., finding out if what I came up with resembles how he himself hits these shots, and whether that matters, and whether he hit them on the Hampton-Sydney tennis team.

[bottle]

Tuesday night doubles quad was just rain-canceled at the Joe White Tennis Center, Winston-Salem, NC . Shea Brown, the former pro there who occasionally phones in, is either in D.C., Florida or England. The scorpion
tail/rolled up frog tongue volleys he knows might be very good for a trailing poach. Think about it.

You've successfully run past the oncoming ball. If you have a straight arm
FHV like Henman or Federer, your hand will be trailing so far behind you may miss altogether. If you have a bent arm like Rafter or McEnroe, there's a better chance of making contact. But why not squnch up your arm, back of hitting hand close to your ear? The best solution may be hitting from that close-to-the-head cochleate position-- no?

[bottle]

Lucky me-- not to have found the extraordinary tennis pro Shea Brown with his crazy volleys! I'll keep trying, of course, and when I succeed, expect to discover new arcane knowledge about "iron palm," which I believe is a special branch of Kung Fu. An expert in the martial arts could set me straight in a minute, of course, but all the experts remain silent. Besides, those experts who have fallen under Eastern influence have learned never to greet a direct question with a direct answer.

Or do I do the man injustice-- could it be that Shea Brown is one of the exceptional worldwide tennis pros who give a student just enough information-- and no more-- so the student then discovers the rest for himself and attains complete ownership; i.e., mastery?

On a rushed poach I expect to hit a conventional shot-- BHV in the ad court, FHV in the deuce court. If, in mid-run, however, I determine that I have extra time, I will screw my hitting hand up to the trailing ear for the new creation. The ball will go, not at tremendous speed, but at impossibly sharp angle near the outside line for a clean winner. If my opponents try to keep me at home by hitting DTL, I shall turn my shoulders a lot and hit a little chop reflex volley acutely crosscourt-- wish me luck.

[GimpyGrumpy]

Huh? I tried to understand this but what does it mean?

[bottle]

Thanks. It's a quasi-scientific report on the possible discovery of two new extremely useful shots if you can poach in doubles-- hard, I know from personal experience, when you're a gimp. If you don't mind, I'll just go on, in hopes that you can follow. All you'll probably need do is forget that this is a culture of dumbness in which we worship dumbness for its own sake.
Maybe we saw the film "Forrest Gump" more than a decade ago without understanding the mean implication.

On the surface of things, the two developmental shots seem too long, but, so does a frog's tongue, which does the job. The old volley advice, "play
patticake," is hoping for a comeback. The neuroscientist Ray Brown's axiom
that tennis strokes can't be taught by template seems pertinent, too, as does Oscar Wegner's conviction that tennis is better learned through feel than thought.

If all this is too complicated, then just take the two shots and try them. You can ignore all the rest of my language. I do the same thing when I go out on the court. The only given is back of hand facing right ear, palm of hand facing left ear (assuming right-handedness). Obviously, these extreme positions with continental grip cock the forearm; when then will the forearm release? Soon! For both sides one can steal from that BHV form in which slight, delayed arm-straightening snaps in at the end. The last thing we want right then is twisting of the racket, so the little bit of twisting (forearm
uncocking) occurs first to get itself out of the way.

The total motion, like any volley, must be unified, succinct, semi-but-not- self-conscious. It feels like frog's tongue or rolled up New Year's toy zapping out. The ball is a flying beetle. The motion feels, too, a bit like a hook in boxing. All parts of the arm unfurl throughout. Lower racket edge leads first then upper edge, which contacts the ball. To put this another way, lower edge goes faster at first, but then both edges move at the same speed.

Much of the length of the motion goes toward finding the ball and achieving separation of hand from body. The frog's tongue can zot in a variety of direction. Despite the length of the zot, the volley can be short like any good volley!

For you and anyone else who has faithfully followed this entire thread in quest of a payoff, I need to confess: I haven't used these shots in match play yet and won't for a week since single's league comes first in my schedule.
When I'm successful, though, I'll record a single word: "Eureka!" although you may not think I can bring things down to a single word. Personal, not scientific discovery is what I'll mean. If it doesn't happen, I'll record that, too. In the meantime I don't mind letting the two new shots ripen a bit more.

I wouldn't mind hearing, too, Mr. Gimpy-Grumpy, about some of the weird stuff you've tried in your own tennis career. If I have a hidden agenda, that's it. We ordinary tennis players have let the beautiful animals and brilliant teaching pros intimidate us into subservient silence. But invention, you see, comes from anywhere and usually the most unexpected place.

[bottle]

Gimpy-grump: If they work, then practice and put them in the repertoire of service returns, too. While it is an advantage to limit variation in ground strokes, one can't have enough non-intellectual alternatives when on the spot desperately searching for something-that-actually-will-return-the-killer- serve.

[johnyandell]

Bottle,

I tried to follow this myself--too hard to visualize wtihout some images. Why don't you send us some video so we can see what you are talking about?

[bottle]

Okay, I'll think camera-- I applaud that idea. In the meantime I'll say to both you and Gimp-y-gump, who's just talking with his racket right now: It's a loose sidearm throw with a bit of straight section at the end. I'll see if I can return a few serves with it this afternoon-- first day of Spring singles league.

[GimpyGrumpy]

Getting testy I see--you can always tell on message boards when people start trying to belittle you by playing around with your login name. Yours is certainly tempting in that respect, but I'll take the high road.

I get a headache reading your descriptions, actually. Anyone else want to bet we never see any video?

[bottle]

You're right. I started to get testy. Must have come from seeing "Grumpy Old Men" starring Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon. (And someone already took a shot at my name, suggesting I should be renamed "Bong". What a misunderstanding. That hurt. No wonder I'm mean.)

Sorry my descriptions give you headaches. A highly reputable USPTA pro-- Jim Kacian-- once told me I could destroy Yannick Noah in five minutes if somebody permitted me to talk with him.

At the same time I think-- and this is certainly not personal feeling directed at you-- that modern tennis contains a built in prejudice against
individual invention. The entire Czech tennis federation, according to Gene Scott, tried to talk the young teenager Ivan Lendl out of his forehand.

To return to words: No question that visual example, film, and feel are better than analytical language in stroke development-- but how can people explore complex ideas and maybe communicate them except through trial and language? Nobody can tell me that tennis pros and guys teaching tennis to their girlfriends don't talk a lot-- I'm certainly not the only one. Yeah, I'm a word man. Should I apologize for THAT? Vic Braden looked up at me (at Stonebrook Racquet Club in Winchester, Virginia) and told me it was something I could deal with.

In this present thread here, I think maybe there were a couple of different
experiments going on. One was not having everything worked out in advance before I wrote the first sentence-- always dangerous but sometimes interesting, too. I actually learned stuff in the exchanges which led me to try some new invention. This kind of exploration on the run is the opposite of public relations, which is maybe the only kind of writing that too many people like and understand by now-- it's not for me.

As far as the two new strokes I proposed (like throwing frisbees?), my feelings, not surprisingly, have changed again. I think the martial arts
stuff might genuinely lead to a different kind of volleying that might be quite effective. But would it be worth tearing up the volleys one already had?
I'm enough of a gyro that I may turn the channel sometime and try the new volleys on a day when I don't care if I lose.

You're right (very perceptive), you won't see me on film unless you donate a camera. But when I was a rowing coach I filmed my 100 people with the athletic department's camera whenever possible, trying hard not to drop it overboard. The film was terrifically useful in matters of technique. But explanation was good, too, and kinesthetic cues were best of all the language I could offer (I tried to invent a few new ones every day), and those kids won, and liked it, too.

[johnyandell]

I think it's the combination of words, kinesthetics, and pictures. They all work together. Sometimes though the picture has to start the process--which might be the case here...

[bottle]

Yeah, but what if Gimpy-Grumpy hadn't yet donated his camera and film services when the crazy-like-a-fox tennis pro in the bar grabbed my arm
and twisted it up by my ear. THIS is the part I'd capture if I was a film-maker. All the rest seems relatively predictable.

Nevertheless, the two new strokes that grew out of the encounter have an ongoing life of their own. My opponent in league play this afternoon left some balls bouncing at intermediate height near the net. I didn't plan to use the new strokes but did want to do something different. So I tried them.
Immediate, clean winners led to their continuance throughout the match.
Maybe they're best thought of as sidearm smashes rather than volleys-- I don't know.

Here's what I do know-- and it's far more important than my minor certification as a tennis teaching pro. If I were being paid on the contingency of successful transfer of the new strokes, this is how I would approach the challenge. I would take any tennis student into a bar, twist her or his arm in the two previously described ways and then never say or do anything more.

[uspta502580821]

A friend recently told me that some of my advice had been seen on these pages, and I have read with interest Bottle's story of my advice about a backhand volley. I wish I could remember exactly where I met Mr. "Bottle", but indeed he does remember correctly the suggestion that I made to him.
Probably some of my best tennis advice has been given away in a bar somewhere or another,, but it is quite flattering to see this advice mentioned on these pages. Thank you Bottle for remembering and trying this approach to a backhand volley, and mentioning it here.
Years ago I spent many hours practicing at the old Myrtle Beach Tennis Club, when it was just a very plain and quaint beautiful spot hidden deep in the forest off of highway 17 in Myrtle Beach. I was lucky enough to have an old Prince ball machine, and several hundred balls, and I would often stay after everyone was long gone, and practice the same shot over, and over, and over again.
In practicing my putaway backhand volley, I found that by holding my racquet with the head high and curling my palm towards my ear, and by putting my other hand behind my racquet just at the top of my grip, that I could have significant power. Of course I had the advantage of knowing exactly where the ball was going, and at what speed,, but the power and the angles I could achieve were grand. The first movement of the racquet in this motion was down,, letting gravity make the smallest first part, but then the uncurling of the wrist and arm would really lend power to the shot.
I was using a Prince Thunderstick racquet at the time, strung with gut, and I remember breaking strings on two of my racquets one night using that shot. It is certainly not for every backhand volley,, but it can be a real crowd pleaser when it is pulled off.
I want to say a quick word here about the tennis profession. Most all of us do it because it is simply something that we love doing. But much like the life of a musician, it is not an easy profession. Occasionally we are lucky enough to have a very good client, but honestly, most of the time this is not the exact case. Sometimes we are lucky enough to have a good position, and a great boss, at a great club where all the members love us,, but this is so rare. And never do we meet another tennis pro who teaches exactly as we teach. Most teachers , out of necessity must be very jealous of their positions, because good positions are so hard to come by,, and thus egos become involved, and feelings are hurt, and oftentimes we do not speak encouragingly enough to our fellow teachers. I am guilty of this,, but I hope that I am changing.
I can honestly say, that there have been very few tennis teachers that I did not learn something from,, from the beginning teacher to the crusty old Mr. Grumpy,, each one has something we can all benefit from learning.
Now that I know about this forum from John Yandell, I wish you great success with it, I think it is great,, and perhaps I will throw a few more suggestions into the mix! Greetings to all my old students and tennis pals out there in the tennis blog world! Shea.

[bottle]

The fact that you don't exactly remember our meeting just proves that we were having a good time. And "Speakeasy" just went out of business. People will speak easy no more. And I don't remember the part about the gravity drop to
start the stroke. So will have to try it over again-- one of the true pleasures of the game. Hope some other people try this unique, "stick-it" backhand volley from the martial arts when they're not just "touching" a hard-hit ball, i.e., blocking it.

Great post. Thanks so much.

[mntlblok]

Does that technique also include turning your back to the net?

Kevin
Savannah
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=74019&E=50



In practicing my putaway backhand volley, I found that by holding my racquet with the head high and curling my palm towards my ear, and by putting my other hand behind my racquet just at the top of my grip, that I could have significant power. Of course I had the advantage of knowing exactly where the ball was going, and at what speed,, but the power and the angles I could achieve were grand. The first movement of the racquet in this motion was down,, letting gravity make the smallest first part, but then the uncurling of the wrist and arm would really lend power to the shot.

[mntlblok]

I should add that I'm assuming the shot is directed into the forehand doubles alley. Mark Knowles hits this shot *so* beautifully.

Kevin


Does that technique also include turning your back to the net?

[bottle]

Shea really ought to be the one to answer. I'd love to learn all the elements that broke the two sets of strings in one night. But if you look back to the beginning of this thread you'll see a lot about turning upper body an extra amount for the poach.

I also have to say, however, and this goes back to the original meeting in "Speakeasy": I don't mind working out fine points myself from a great clue, even wonder if being told every little detail of anything EVER works.

For instance: Some backhand volleying stickers derive power from hips rotation, others from shoulders rotation to under chin (Rosemary Hawley in Australia), others from clenching shoulderblades together. If doing the latter, I wonder, should arm straighten passively (as in my best full backhand slice)? If following the martial arts idea, is everything after the slight gravity drop muscular and simultaneous, Zen-like from a single brain impulse as if you're
breaking a stack of boards?

I don't even want to hear more opinions, at this point, just need time and patience to make my own discovery. I do know one thing, however. The situations from which this thread arose were good poaches where I hit the ball perfectly not in the alley but at the feet of very good players, who nevertheless were able to block-lob back to where I came from. So I wanted to learn how to hit much harder, to really stick it. Haven't played good doubles for a while but think I could now play the same ball in such a way that the same player wouldn't get it back or keep it in the court (or show up for breakfast the next morning).