Interactive Forum June 2010: More New High Speed Footage! John Isner Serve

[johnyandell]

John Isner is in the top 20 in the world and it's no secret that his serve is probably the most important factor. So check it out at 500 frames per second! You won't see that anywhere else in the world. You can also calculate the spin on the front view.

We can probably assume that 6' 9" effects the angle and the bounce. But here we can look unbelievably clearly at the technical elements in the motion and compare them with some of the other great servers on the site. What do you guys say?

[gzhpcu]

Seems like a very flat serve to me with very little hitting across the ball and, subsequently, late pronation of the forearm well after impact...
Seems like the racket wobbles during pronation after impact....never saw that before...

[johnyandell]

Counted it and it actually has just less than 2000rpms. Scary huh?

[GeoffWilliams]

I'd like to know how these tall heavy guys can bend their knees so much. Isner reminds me of Beetlejuice. Ant like head on top of a giant's body. He belongs with Karlovic/Querrey group. Big serves, big fh, not so good movement. Serve comes in like a high bouncing bowling ball. Makes me jealous. He does not rotate his chest as much as Sampras, towards the back fence. He does not arch his back as much or get under his elbow as much. He goes to a pin point stance. He pronates long after the ball is gone, almost as an after thought. He does not have the same shoulder over shoulder rotation, angle wise, as close to 180 degrees. More kinetic force due to a longer lever arm and more potential speed with the longer chain of kinetic voltage. Good angle into the box.

[labete]

can't seem to get quick time

Hi John Yandell,
I've been a member for 4 years and suddenly I can't get into the stroke archive. I have a new and improved computer ASUS which tells me I have to download Apple Quick time to see these videos. Never had to do that before. any suggestions?
Labete

[bottle]

Yes, download Apple quick time in quick time for the first time or smash the computer. I'm finding this Isner stuff instructive for its maximizing of vertical elements of serve. Specifically, the elbow comes from way low to way high. Why wouldn't this route help someone with a shoulder rotor restriction (most tennis players worldwide)?

[johnyandell]

Yes download it! It's free. Your computer probably had it before and you've always needed it to see the Stroke Archive.

[bottle]

From rear view: The toss is early and high. The elbow stays low, seemingly forever. The hitting elbow and the tossing arm form an arrow pointing upward. Next the strings have passed Isner's head and yet the same arrow is still in effect-- elbow to hand to what? The hovering or descending ball? The place where contact will occur? A spot to the left or right in front or behind?

Whatever the answer, the arm bends and squeezes together a whole lot before the elbow finally starts up. And the maximized elbow travel is one-way in this particular kind of serve-- entirely upward in response to main body movement.

A good way for anybody, short or tall, to lengthen his racket path to ball? Cue:
Keep tossing hand and hitting elbow as great a distance from one another as is humanly possible.

Am I just being overly hopeful or is this a legitimate alternative to driving yourself to the dump, where, once you get past the Rottweiler, the attendants will crush the adhesions in your shoulder and your car all at the same time?

[bottle]

Escher-Isner

I'm never completely sure what's best for a reader of these fora, for TP, for myself. But I know I like the idea of free-ranging conversation, and that I, John Escher, was never much interested in John Isner when we lived a few miles apart in North Carolina, but now that I'm in Michigan...

The following clips, along with the 500 fps babies up above, reveal beginning elbow higher than I thought, stance closer together, contact point farther forward, hand first winding up to behind head/back of neck area where it does in so many cases of very good servers.

I know the freakiness of the Isner serve (his ability to hit greatly down) is something to behold, but I also think that because of John Isner's great height, some basics may be more apparent than usual since things are more spread out and therefore more observable, e.g., how does racket tip get way over to the right?

From the forearm? From whole arm twisting? From body unbowing?

This happens before hammer thrust from arm upward, which definitely includes some counter-clockwise UAR (upper arm rotation) just before contact.

The late pronation following the ball path seems to come long after contact as an astute person said, and "pronation" refers to forearm twist only, as Brian Gordon has said when discussing certain tennis terminology. (As in any science, limiting the meaning can strengthen that meaning.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcSJAHXHDvM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNzLA5TcxU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe6-tTvxQxk&feature=related

[bottle]

New Observation

Isner doesn't squeeze his arm completely together before he springs his body bow. The arm only forms a right angle at maximum drawing of that bow.
(See Scott Murphy instructional lessons on service).