Interactive Forum August 2010: Andy Murray Serve And Forehand: High Speed in High Def

[johnyandell]

Andy Murray Serve And Forehand: High Speed in High Def

Check out the latest sequence of our new 500 frames per second, high def filming. This month you can see Andy Murray's serve and his forehand. Some say, his best shot and his weakest. But what do you think technically of the motions? I say there are some unusual elements in both. If so are they positives or negatives? Let us know what you think!

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

Andy Murray Serve And Forehand: High Speed in High Def

[gzhpcu]

My first impression of Murray's serve is that he is not pronating much after impact. Sampras's racket face faces the side fence, his racket faces down...

[uspta146749877]

does he have to pronate more ?

does he have to pronate more ?
I assume that a video shows a FIRST serve.
John,am I wrong?

[gsheiner]

I agree with the observation that Murray doesn't get the pronation on this serve that we are used to seeing in Federer, Sampras, etc.

I wonder though whether this is a power issue ( Murray did finish off the match against Fed in Toronto with a 135 miles per hour serve) or a disguise issue. It seems to me that if the followthrough is relatively straight over the ball that it might be easier for the returner to get a visual cue but this is pure speculation on my part.

On the forehand, I believe that this forehand and others in the stroke archive suggest to me that he doesn't get great extension and has a relatively late contact point ( which could be related).

Having watched him handle Fed and Nadal with relative ease this past week in Toronto, I was struck by the sharp angles he can get from his two handed backhand which it seems he can hit really early. I watched Djokovic play Fed in the semis in Toronto and Djoko couldn't hit as sharp an angle off the backhand. It might be interesting in some future month to look at Murray's sharp crosscourt backhand and compare it to other guys like Djoko.

GS

[bababooey76]

Pronation

Agassi had a very similar serve to Murrays in the sense that they lack the pronation of Sampras. However, I don't believe power is the issue here since all of them hit 135mph (Agassi might have needed a juiced gun for that!)
The major advantage that the pronation gives you is the ability to keep the ball on a straighter line.

Imagine a standard returner standing on the deuce side with their right foot on the singles sideline:
- The non-pronated serve will slice some and the returner would need a step or two to the left to be able to return it
- The pronated serve of Sampras (which is a true "flat" serve; youll notice how it wont slice) stays on a straighter line (due to the conservation of momentum law for all those who took physics) and force the same returner to stretch out wider.

[gzhpcu]

Look at the great Pancho Gonzalez's finish.

[gzhpcu]

does he have to pronate more ?
I assume that a video shows a FIRST serve.
John,am I wrong?

I am of the opinion yes. Regardless of the type of serve, you need to. Just the timing varies and the angle at impact varies, but after impact the pronation should continue as a natural non-stress motion...

[uspta146749877]

pronation vs speed and placement

I agree with the observation that Murray doesn't get the pronation on this serve that we are used to seeing in Federer, Sampras, etc.

I wonder though whether this is a power issue ( Murray did finish off the match against Fed in Toronto with a 135 miles per hour serve) or a disguise issue. It seems to me that if the followthrough is relatively straight over the ball that it might be easier for the returner to get a visual cue but this is pure speculation on my part.

On the forehand, I believe that this forehand and others in the stroke archive suggest to me that he doesn't get great extension and has a relatively late contact point ( which could be related).

Having watched him handle Fed and Nadal with relative ease this past week in Toronto, I was struck by the sharp angles he can get from his two handed backhand which it seems he can hit really early. I watched Djokovic play Fed in the semis in Toronto and Djoko couldn't hit as sharp an angle off the backhand. It might be interesting in some future month to look at Murray's sharp crosscourt backhand and compare it to other guys like Djoko.

GS

Is it correct that INCREASED pronation will decrease a speed of a ball

[uspta146749877]

Please see my another post above

I am of the opinion yes. Regardless of the type of serve, you need to. Just the timing varies and the angle at impact varies, but after impact the pronation should continue as a natural non-stress motion...

Please see my another post above

[stotty]

I've never quite liked the way Murray throws his left arm out behind him at the end of the serve. I find it slightly more exaggerated than with other players on the tour. On occasions he almost flings it out ! Funny this because as a kid it was a problem that seem to get rectified somewhere along the way by his coach...but the trait still rears its head again now and then.

I know this because I am English and was coaching a kid that played the same junior circuit here in the uk. They used to have good games back then. My kid levelled off while Andy went on to stardom. My kid now has a mundane job in a bank while Andy is a multi millionaire and a national hero...funny how life pans out...

Another thing you might be interested to hear is that Andy was very passive in his style of play as a junior too. He had to be almost forced into hitting aggressively. His preferred style was to rally well within himself and outmanoeuvre here and there. He always played it cagey on big points. It served him well here in the UK when he was a kid as standards weren't that high. Good job he moved to Spain!

Good to see overcome his instincts and playing so aggressively last week against Nadal and Federer. That's the Andy I like to see!

Lovely clip to look at and analyse....thanks

[gzhpcu]

Is it correct that INCREASED pronation will decrease a speed of a ball

Why would that be? What do John and Brian think?

[uspta146749877]

I am NOT sure whether John reads posts here

I am NOT sure whether John reads posts here

[gzhpcu]

Sure he does.... He is the OP...

[llll]

I am of the opinion yes. Regardless of the type of serve, you need to. Just the timing varies and the angle at impact varies, but after impact the pronation should continue as a natural non-stress motion...

just because murray does not get full pronation in his serves would you say thats bad???
against the compettioin he plays ie world class, he can serve into the 130's and can serve very effectively and can hit the targets and has a slice , flat and topspin serve. so even tho he doesnt have the look or "finish " of sampras or pancho it just goes to show what can be done without that look or finish (implying less pronation)
on the other hand
one could say "think how much better his serve would be if he did pronate more."