Serve Footwork-Bruce Elliott, John Yandell

thereallovebone · #1 03-27-2005, 12:46 AM

Bruce, I noticed in your serving article you commented that Taylor Dent lands on his left foot when serving. I watched him a couple of weeks ago and it looks like he is swinging that right leg up and over. I know you and John are dead set against this technique but what are the keys to making this technique work properly. I know Boris Becker was able to pull this off and you have a video on this site of Yannick Noah hitting this way.

johnyandell · #2 03-27-2005, 04:21 PM

RLB,

This is John, and I'll attempt to answer for both of us. Interesting you mention Taylor because we are working on adding him to the Stroke Archive, probably for June. You won't see him step first with the right foot though. You're correct he is doing something different with that foot--pulling his knee up towards his chest. But he always lands on the left front foot. That right foot move may make his NEXT step quicker and he may get in a bit further in--maybe-- but he is in the mainstream or overhwelming majority on the basic leg pattern--deep bend, explode upward, and on front foot. Becker on the otherhand (or Noah) was not. Sure he had a great serve, but when 95% of the players use one pattern, I think it's hard to argue that the 5% is the way to go. In actually I saw him land both ways--many times he actually landed left foot first! And he'd go back and forth in a single game... Just go check out the first serve he hits in the Stroke Archive. Check out the Sampras serve article on the use of the legs--you won't go wrong.

mrhalley · #3 04-18-2005, 06:40 AM

Why does the back leg kick up in the serve? The back leg is countering some force, but I cannot tell which. Do you know? For instance, in baseball pitch, the hip rotation brings the back leg around. On many pro forehands these days, the back leg comes around (see Agassi and James Blake).

What what is going on in the serve? Please see Maria Sharapova for an extreme example of back leg kicking up.

johnyandell · #4 04-18-2005, 09:03 AM

All the top players do this--Sharapova is no more extreme than Roddick. Pete did it the least probably. Federer does it. It allows the player to land on balance on the front foot with the torso relatively erect. Anything else that happens with the back foot happens after this landing. Disagree that Agassi is swinging the back foot around--at least in a crossing step. What he is typically doing after the kick back is bringing the back leg up to prepare for a split step--unless he is going in.

mrhalley · #5 04-19-2005, 04:59 AM

John,

After I posted this, I found your article on serving and pitching a baseball.
Very good and I now understand what is going on. There is a very early transfer of weight to the front leg and then a push up. Rather than a rearing back on the back foot and then a lateral transfer forward in the pitch.

Thanks for your work.

davehagler · #6 04-25-2005, 11:13 AM

If you read Dr. Elliot's article on serving and look at the video you will get another piece of this. If you exaggerate the upward extension of your tossing arm and keep it up long enough then you can "explode" up to the ball. If you have any "push" from your legs at all then you will find you land on your front foot and your back leg kicks back - it just happens (probably because you do not want to fall on your face). My guess is that if you measure you will find that these serves have greater velocity and an increased spin component because of the path and angle of the racquet when it strikes the ball. There may be ways to serve with more spin but you would give up a lot velocity wise to do so. It's like a lot of other things in tennis - more work initially and less effort and better results in the shot itself. Play around with this - it's fun!!

thereallovebone · #7 04-30-2005, 10:26 PM

What did you guys think of this guy's serve?

johnyandell · #8 05-01-2005, 12:09 AM

Is it Stitch?? Good enough to win Wimby--the doubles with Mac--oh yeah and a singles title too... Ultra smooth swing, limited leg coil and hop, then the step with the opposite foot. Wish we had some video for the Archive. May have to go to London for a seniors event!

vmiller · #9 05-06-2005, 11:20 AM

If you guys are familiar with Bollettieri's Sonic Serve, I think it leads to a another possible explanation.

I think the key is how far you upper body ends up in front of your hips.

Following the Sonic Serve, the hip stretch leads to the hip snap which is equated to the action of a pole vaulters pole. If your torso snaps upward from the leg drive and hip stretch, the momentum of this is going to eventually carry your torso forward and your shoulders will end up out in front of your hips. The kick back of the back leg is necessary to counteract this so that you don't fall on your face when you land.

A more simple explanation could be executing the leg drive at enough of a forward angle. If you watch a clip of Pete's serve, it almost looks like he's falling into the court before he launches. At this point, the body is pretty much in a straight line, but angled forward resulting in the upper body being further into the court than the rest of the body.

Both explanations result in the shoulders being ahead of the feet and hips which is going to require the kick back as a counter balance.

johnyandell · #10 05-06-2005, 09:17 PM

You know I'm going to look into that. We're doing some articles with Nick B. based on the sonic serve principles. Superficially, I found the idea of pushing that hip out was a bad idea--it goes out a little on it's own and I'm not sure Max is the model, great as his serve is.. .but to be honest I haven't really absorbed it all yet and the guy who really masterminded the video, Pat Dougherty is really smart--he's gonna do some more articles for us.