Have a Question for Me?

[johnyandell]

Leis,

One thing that is important to know in addressing this question is that all groundstroke swings are inside out in tennis. You'll see a remarkable demonstration of this in Jeff Counts' new article in May.

I believe that on both sides the hand and racket start relatively in the same place from ball to ball, at least as far as distance from the body goes.

Obviously there have to be differences in the arc of the swing to account for different shots.

I wouldn't be surprised if Brian Gordon has already accumulated data on it, but so far as I know it's never been measured and analyzed.

In the absence of that data I think the best we can do is visualize the swing paths and the flight paths of the shots, and let the images control what happens. Definitely on the short or dipping angles this can include more rotation of the hand and arm.

Regarding your shots specifically. First, as is probably well known, I don't like analogies to other sports. But beyond that we would need some video to determine whether the factors you mention are happening or not happening for sure in the way you describe.

That may not matter though if you have found an effective way to key the shot. Keys don't always have to correspond with reality exactly, they just have to work!

[leis]

Inside_Out Swing For Extreme Cross-Court

If this has been discussed earlier, my apologies. When using a step-down footwork pattern to hit a down-the-line forehand, my swing thought is to swing parallel with my shoulders prior to contact. A golf swing thought came to mind. I closed my shoulders a little(probably contacted the ball later) and tried to swing parallel with the now closed shoulders which made the swing inside-out. This made it very easy to hit an extreme crosscourt. With a little dip of the racket head and the inside-out swing, I could hit the extreme crosscourt dip. The same principle applied to hitting a normal crosscourt shot, but with a little less shoulder closure and a less extreme inside-out swing.

I recall watching a pro manuever a closed shoulder at the last second to hit what seemed to be a down-the-line backhand shot. However, he swung inside-out and hit the extreme crosscourt dipper (which is so effective in clay doubles when the opponents are both at net and you can hit at their feet).

I don't know how this might translate with an open stance. This swing thought helps me to remember how to hit this shot. Am I way off base on describing this??

[johnyandell]

To me Nadal (remember small grip handle) is definitely centered on 1 as is Agassi.

Djokoivic is slightly weaker, and looks like Murray is also.

[jayfro]

Thanks for the answer. I've looked up some images but it's been tough to find decent images taken at a good angle. This appears to be a strong 1 position with the heel pad, but it also could be between 1 and 8. I've also seen some images of Nadal where he's strongly on 1 or between 1 and 8. I think 1 is the safe bet.

I don't think I've seen a two-hander with the index knuckle purely on 1--maybe on the edge between 1 and 2 at the strongest. But mostly on 2.

I general I think that when the knuckle is on 2 the heel pad is squarely on top, ie, mostly on 1. It might overlap toward 8, but I wouldn't purposefully rotate it that way.

Some of the guys may even be shifted slightly toward 2 with the heel pad. And I agree, it's hard to be totally precise not only image wise but grip size and hand size wise as well.

[johnyandell]

I don't think I've seen a two-hander with the index knuckle purely on 1--maybe on the edge between 1 and 2 at the strongest. But mostly on 2.

I general I think that when the knuckle is on 2 the heel pad is squarely on top, ie, mostly on 1. It might overlap toward 8, but I wouldn't purposefully rotate it that way.

Some of the guys may even be shifted slightly toward 2 with the heel pad. And I agree, it's hard to be totally precise not only image wise but grip size and hand size wise as well.

[jayfro]

John,

I've enjoyed the two hand backhand breakdown and analysis you did previously, but I have a question with grip placement. It seems as though many or most pro players (men) tend to put the index knuckle on 1 or 2, but where does the heel pad line up exactly? Would that put the heel pad between 1/8 if you have the base knuckle on 2? How about if you have the index knuckle on 1? I've been trying to figure out the heel pad location to better help my students with the backhand grip, and I haven't been able to find good pictures to show heel pad placement.

Jay

[ochi]

Wow -- Triple A! That is intense. Having been a newsman/editor for decades, meeting deadlines, wanting every issue to be as good or better than the last, I understand it. Having a patient wife, or being single, helps a lot.

Last night, I asked a 31-year-old former touring pro/instructor what he thought. (He dropped out early because of asthma, and his wife told me a while ago that he beat Safin and Roddick before they broke through). He said he had not heard of the term "the cobra," but that cocking the wrist at that point eliminates needless motion before the strike. He also agreed completely with the thrust of your latest "Your Strokes," and then he casually served one pistol shot ball to demonstrate -- if I had been receiving, and it had come right at me, I either would have blocked it somehow, or been tatooed for a week.

[johnyandell]

Actually I think that's triple A.

Good question and I am not really sure how it could have an impact on much--the racket travels so much further to get to the drop before it even goes up to contact and the hand changes positions several times.

I could be missing something but it's probably just a feel thing almost a ritual.

[ochi]

The "cobra"

John, you and your site are astounding -- way too much for me to absorb, but I love to dive into it. Someone who's met you told me that you are "a double-A type." I believe it.

Thanks to your serve analysis in the April issue, I am about to start taking my tossing hand down lower and raising it a little slower. Here is my question: I noted -- not for the first time -- that Sampras always cocked his serving hand wrist as he took his racquet down next to his leg. I've noticed that some other top servers do this, too. An excellent instructor/server told me long ago, after a USPTA meeting, that this was referred to as "the cobra."

What is the value of this? Is it a wind-unwind thing that increases snap?

Richard

[johnyandell]

It's an interesting question. Definitely the backhand and the two-handers are being hit flatter in general. But if you saw the last one-handed backhand article you can see that is changing with more hand and arm rotation.

The two-hander could be next. If you look at Clijsters she tends to turn the hand and arm over. Robin Soderling does it although we don't have him in the archive. I've seen Ferrero do it and even Agassi in our high speed filming--not necessarily on the site at this minute.

If you look around I bet you'll find a few good examples. I don't hit the shot and am not familiar with the feel or risks, but apparently it is going to be part of the future.

[tiff3872]

Two handed backhand finish

I was wondering why players do not close the face down on the wrap finish on the backhand side. Watching stroke archives and reading all your articles I see a lot of forehand finishes that close down the racquet face after impact to create more topspin yet all backhands seem too square up the racquet and just finish out front and high while maintaning that angle. I have been working with my daughter having her finish in the waiter position creating much more topspin equal to her forehand. So my question is are the tour players just using the backhand as a rally shot working to set up a big forehand?

Warm Regards,
Andrew

[popsnz]

Middle aged backhand

Many thanks John. I have seen the Don Budge sliced backhand which was a revelation. I have not yet read the Trey Watke article but will do so tonight.

Regards

Myer

[johnyandell]

PS: Your Strokes will be back. I've had quite a lot of requests for it--just taking a break and changing it up.

[johnyandell]

I actually agree to a great extent. You probably should be hitting most of those backhands with slice.

The right ball hit with the right spin is a question of level of play, but also time and court position.

A hard, relatively flat slice drive can be just as effective as a topspin drive, and sometimes more. So I wouldn't stress trying to arbitrarily hit topspin for it's own sake.

Have you read Trey Waltke's article in Classic Lessons on the Slice Drive?
With many adults I actually use the Don Budge slice backhands from the Stroke Archive as the model. Look at the Your Strokes on Carl's slice backhand as well.

It's something I eventually plan to write about on the site in more detail.

[popsnz]

Middle aged strokes

Hi John

I find the "your strokes" section the most informative part of your web site. It is only through seeing the mistakes of other less than professional players such as me that one can appreciate the technical inadequacies that are often common to all us hackers.

I wonder if you could give me some advice. I often feel that much of the ideal stroke preparation is designed for younger, faster and more flexible tennis players and not middle aged guys like me. To illustrate my point I often feel that to hit a single handed backhand topspin regularly with the correct grip and adequate shoulder rotation requires one to be much faster and more flexible than most 45 year olds are capable of because the pace of shots in today’s game. As a result I am often hitting balls out of position which leads to inconsistent results. As a consequence I tend to slice my one handed backhand and hit maybe 10% with topspin reserved only for those slower balls.

If I had a middle aged backhand that had as its basis a less radical grip and required less shoulder rotation I would be in a better position to hit more topspin backhands. True they would not have as much topspin and would not be "ballistic" in nature but would be able to be used more often.