My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand...

[don_budge]

Connecting the dots...My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_backhand/mac_backhand.html?MacBHCenterCourtLevelFront2.mov

My thoughts on driving the backhand with the continental grip. So far...I have been unable to get myself in position with the proper timing to get the thing going forwards in the correct manner in the competitive situation. Too worried about missing...to worried about winning. But in practice I have seen the light...and it is bright.

My problem is that I am so used to coming over the top for the slice, I believe. But in this clip John McEnroe is demonstrating the resolve and patience that Hogan emphasizes and allows the hips to make the first move so that the butt of the racquet is brought and pulled to nearly a foot from the ball before the supinated wrist unfurls and works it's magic in the hitting zone. I have felt this wrist action in my hitting practice and it is a rather unique sensation so far as I am concerned. Another interesting note is the angle of the racquet at impact with the racquet head below the hand.

I never knew that the wrist could behave like that...giving the ball a "slap" as the racquet head propels through the hitting zone. The unique sensation is a result of experimenting with a new grip...the new grip changes the properties of the racquet head in the hitting zone. The action of the wrist is rather "short and crisp" compared to the action of the wrist in the longer and stronger gripped backhands that are being compared to that of McEnroe's and his continental gripped backhand.

McEnroe's left hand is nearly in line with his front hip before the wrist is activated and sends the racquet face rocketing through the shot. Truly...he is holding onto the lag in his swing...like a good golfer does. You must stay behind the ball as well and no sliding forward...this will offset the speed of the racquet going through the ball. One must feel as if the racquet head is shooting by you. See how the racquet face stays on its edge throughout the whole swing. Evidence that the wrist is behaving only as a product of the movement of the body that has transferred the energy all along the length of his arm and finally into the wrist which is only a passive hinge in the hands of this maestro.

On the plus side the relatively simple movement of turning the shoulders and setting the racquet into position from the abbreviated backhand ready position saves a fraction of a moment which is an eon when getting into position for an incoming bullet. Now it is a matter of setting the feet properly so that the hips are set to do their job. Everything winds up like a rubber band that is ready to unwind at the precise and proper moment. I think that because the action of the wrist is short and sweet everything is much more crucial in the setup as well. Any deviations make it incrementally more uncomfortable getting the racquet going forward in the proper manner. Practice, practice, practice. What's the surprise? Repetitive motions.

Today I have two hours of hitting lessons with some decent sticks and this is my objective for the day. Besides picking up dog and horse poop and stacking wood. My objective is to get the racquet butt to this position and hold off on the temptation to activate the wrist before it is time. Patience...don_budge. Patience. Patience is a virtue. "Hold on!"

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

More to follow...I think that I am on to something here but it is going to take some work. Oh well...I guess that all this crazy world understands in the end is hard work. That's the good news and the bad news. Figures doesn't it?

[stotty]

McEnroe does a brilliant job of keeping his "chest on the ball" which is arguably one of the best golf tips I was ever given. Give a little thought to that. What does it mean to keep your chest on the ball? Don Budge used to have the same sort of move.

The structure of the wrist prevents the Federesque like flourish...which is wasted motion anyways. Conservation of energy and conservation of movement is the McEnroe mantra. For good reason. The most important point of movement is in the impact zone which is immediately before striking and immediately after striking. The rest is essentially window dressing in some respects...although the modern tennis enthusiasts have bought into this hook, line and sinker.

Many seem to be questioning Federer's ability to hit it on the screws lately. It is just possible that with all of this flourish and extra stuff going on in the hitting zone is causing the great tennis player to miss the center of the strings...and even finding the frame more frequently. Virtually 100% of the McEnroe flinging is going on through the impact zone. His follow through on his drive is virtually in the very same position every single time. That speaks of control...built in control. Built into the technique and structure of the wrist.

There are two sides of the coin...not to say that the Fed method is wrong. But McEnroe hits very few balls out of the stadium...unless he is doing it to make a point and on purpose.

The puffed out chest may be a characteristic as opposed to a bi-product of anything significant going on in the shot. I don't feel qualified enough to make a secure judgement on the issue. I do know more conservative grips on the backhand make it easier to stand up on a ball…much less likely to fall back off the shot than with extreme grips.

McEnroe himself described his backhand grip as something of a anomaly, calling it a "modified continental" grip. I tried a continental backhand this morning but with the grip a couple of millimetres more toward a forehand grip. The result was a follow through more like Mac's. I disagree about your verdict of the wrist structure to a degree. The grip forces that wrist structure. He's having to physically turn the wrist a little (clearly visible in the Youtube clip) to get his racket perfectly on edge for impact. This must have ramifications later down the line as the follow through terminates. The end of the stroke (with any player) is very much a product of what went on before it, in my view.

The Federer flourish to me is a result of what went on in the impact zone…far more racket head speed than Mac…not easy to come to such an early halt after swinging with such velocity. I wouldn't call it wasted motion...more an unavoidable one.

That's the trouble with tennis player analysis is we all see different things and see our own opinion as more valid/accurate/profound than the next guy. Quote: "The trouble with coaching is that each coach is convinced HE'S got the best way of doing it" - Dennis Lloyd. That's where it's handy to have a Brian Gordon around to explain the science of things. It keeps us all grounded. Makes us focus on what's really important. Helps us to disregard elements that mean very little from those that mean a lot.

On the issue of flip/lag on the forehand: The greater the lag, the greater the risk....timing is a little more complex even for top pro's. Mac's minimal lag gives more control because it's less complex compared to Federer's full blown flip…but the trade off is far greater racket head speed and a far bigger shot. Is the control versus power trade off worth it? Definitely. Federer may spray more forehands than Mac ever did (but not all that many) but it's also twice the shot going twice as quick. Can we put this down to racket technology? Probably, at least in part…who knows…we'll never see Federer play with wood.

The McEnroe threads have been wonderful. The best threads to date. Can we move on to that famous one in a million serve of his next…?

[bottle]

Great stuff. Yes-- challenge EVERY proposition in ALL subjects, even or especially the assertions of one's relatives and best friends.

Their judgment is probably clouded by the fact that they like you.

So said to me the late Nancy Hale, first woman reporter for the New York Times, one of agent Maxwell Perkins' stable of writers along with Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, Thomas Wolfe, F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway.

I'm feeling good right now since I finally succeeded-- apparently-- in getting Amazon to accept my book.

A computer form/grid held me up. I confused "categories" with the self-provided buzzwords designed to draw people on the internet to the 400-page book.

There's a fair amount of new writing in the MS beyond what's appeared in this forum. But I've included a lot of the conversations with my forum friends if I thought they shed light on some tennis stroke design.

One person suggested that I contact each forum friend and ask for permission to use their words, but, my attitude is that anything uncopyrighted on the web is up for grabs.

A copyright lawyer might not agree. If not he can send out detectives to explore my deep pockets.

Oldest living Camry in the United States, anybody?

If the book goes paper, the publisher's staff can telephone and cajole each contributor.

You're in the book! So is tennis_chiro, Stotty, 10splayer and countless others.

The book should be on the market within 48 hours.

As I said before, the last one sold ten copies.

This one is entitled INNER SLINGSHOT: THE KEY TO MODERN TENNIS.

[don_budge]

Range of movement...less movement equals less deviation.

We get the characteristic lifting up off the upper body (puffed out chest) around the contact point (pinned back look) as a compensative manœuvre to be able hit over the ball effectively.

The tail end of the follow through often looks cut short...the hand...wrist...is seldom flung over as the shot completes as it does...

Look how Federer completes...flinging the hand and wrist as he rips through the tail end of the shot...

You cannot do this with Mac's grip...the ball will end up in the stadium.

I guarantee you the only person who could ever get away with this ever so slightly unorthodox grip is Mac...for the rest of us...it's a flaw.

McEnroe does a brilliant job of keeping his "chest on the ball" which is arguably one of the best golf tips I was ever given. Give a little thought to that. What does it mean to keep your chest on the ball? Don Budge used to have the same sort of move.

The structure of the wrist prevents the Federesque like flourish...which is wasted motion anyways. Conservation of energy and conservation of movement is the McEnroe mantra. For good reason. The most important point of movement is in the impact zone which is immediately before striking and immediately after striking. The rest is essentially window dressing in some respects...although the modern tennis enthusiasts have bought into this hook, line and sinker.

Many seem to be questioning Federer's ability to hit it on the screws lately. It is just possible that with all of this flourish and extra stuff going on in the hitting zone is causing the great tennis player to miss the center of the strings...and even finding the frame more frequently. Virtually 100% of the McEnroe flinging is going on through the impact zone. His follow through on his drive is virtually in the very same position every single time. That speaks of control...built in control. Built into the technique and structure of the wrist.

There are two sides of the coin...not to say that the Fed method is wrong. But McEnroe hits very few balls out of the stadium...unless he is doing it to make a point and on purpose.

[don_budge]

The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test...Ken Kesey

...or "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

Wonderful and thoughtful input guys! bottle, licensedcoach, stroke, tennis_chiro and 10splayer (alphabetical order)...keep it coming! Thank you! Very stimulating thoughts. Very challenging subject I admit. Did it ever occur to anyone else...the paradigm itself may be wrong? It is too narrow and exclusionary. The fact that it is universally bought into is a scary thought as well. It's only a dream mind you...a hallucination if you will. I was just thinking...just dreaming. Out loud. Can we just stop altogether with this business of having to agree on something? Agreeing to disagree? What does it matter? I am here...you are there. This is a freedom zone. Free to dream...out loud.

If I have learned one thing here...on the forum...from bottle more specifically...it is that tennis coaches, tennis teachers, tennis professionals and tennis_students should be more curious intellectually speaking. For instance instead of arguing why the continental grip may or not be applicable or relevant to the modern game of tennis, they might well take some time to intimately get to know all of the intimate aspects of the structure and the effect that it may have on ball striking and on swinging the racquet. Perhaps some of the good scientists out there might explore the energy and how it is released by the various grips into the ball. What if there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat?

What if? Ask yourself the question...then just for the sake of didactic argument answer yes...the paradigm is wrong. What is the true state of American tennis? What is the true state of tennis in general? Perhaps we should rethink, reboot, retool...and then go to work. What if we took this to another level? Asking tough questions about the current state of things in general. We may not like the answers...they may just make us angry. Is it worth it or should we just continue down the road passively excepting what may come? Do we risk upsetting the apple cart? The status quo? The proverbial conventional wisdom? What have we got to lose?

By the way...I am no tennis professional. No, not really. I am just a voice...in the wilderness. Literally.

Not only that but to live it as well. I am starting to line up the big guns in town. Today, tomorrow and Saturday. The acid test. After only three weeks of thinking...of studying...of writing...of practicing...of looking in the mirror. Rehearsing. I am putting this stuff where my keyboard is...my money where my mouth is. I have my doubts too...but I tell myself "what the hell?"

Old aging don_quixote wannabe 3...Young Bucks 0.

Total age difference between the old guy and the young bucks...86 years. My opponent yesterday commented before the match that he was just turning 35 and was looking forwards to playing the veterans tounaments. After we played he was complaining about the court surface. IF*...that's a big if. If I start to drive the backhand it's a whole new ballgame.

The biggest fish to fry is Saturday...my old golf partner who happens to be a very good tennis player and in tremendous physical shape as well. I really hope to give him a big surprise. I have my doubts...but what the hell?

Why wait until you are old and over the hill? I wonder if Roger would have an open mind to the continental grip with a new racquet if it might prolong his career some years?

My thoughts on the backhand...the slice was exquisite. Very few errors and both technically and tactically sound. All slice though. Unable to feel comfortable with the grip to drive as of yet. More practice...today. The drop shot was superb...landing so short and soft. Overall tactics? Pinned my opponents down on the backhand side of the court with my forehand (even though arguably the best player was left handed) and then play short, or angled, or deep to the corner of the forehand side and then return to the backhand side...ad nauseum. McEnroeesque. Just some food for thought. Keep in mind I am left handed...like the other Bad Boy. John McEnroe.

stroke...make that 58 going on 39.

*IF...Rudyard Kipling

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[stotty]

Mac's passing shot...

You have to love the second point in the 1977 McEnroe clip posted by gsheiner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job17sJuJtc

An open stance return by Mac...a standard backhand from Connors....a mid court reply from Mac...in comes Connors on a trademark approach forehand where he cuts across the face of the ball to create inside out spin...what does Mac do?...everyone is covering the down-the-line pass...Connors is...the audience is...Mac thinks differently... he pulls off a tantalising crosscourt pass threaded through the eye of a needle.

Only Mac and Nastase could have done that...no one else.

Did you know Nastase beat Connors 6-0 6-1 once...carved him to shreds...touch-played him to death...embarrassing to watch for Connors' fans...it's true...it did happen.

[bottle]

Reading

The way I did this (the "Part 2" slice post) was to read the descriptions in sequence first, then play the videos in reverse order, switching back and forth to connect video with corresponding description until I was satisfied that I'd paid good attention and could maybe go out on the court for similar performance (ahem!).

Someone else of course would read this post an entirely different way and that's fine.

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe backhand as viewed playing SLICE...Part 2

SLICE

BHSlice Wide CourtLevel Front3- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront3.mov

there isn’t any funny business going on with the technique in this part of the mcenroe repertoire is there? it is a simple motion...turn the shoulders and place the racquet shoulder high with the free hand. made most economical with the racquet already halfway into position from the ready position to the backhand side. genius to cheat in this manner...at least he will never be late and he will give himself every chance to neutralize stronger shots than his returns...if he is weak up and in. which i don’t really believe he is. everyone wants to find a chink in the armor. it’s human nature i suppose. once again the feet are spread a bit but the shoulder also turns wider enabling him to get a bit more oomph on the ball...a bit more spin too. all part of his calculations. all of the complicated stuff in the mcenroe slice backhand are the tactical considerations...the technique is so wonderfully simple. it’s a shot he rarely misses or miscalculates. he’s a scientist too! a mathematician! with linear algebra! permutations and combinations! a physicist! a metaphysical engineer! poetry in motion! ooh...the madness of genius. wider turn towards the ball equals a wider follow through. balancing equations...do to the other side what you do to the first side.

BHSlice Wide CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov

I think it is safe to say at this point that whenever the feet are in less than optimal position it is going to be a slice. slice and dice. as in this case. chased wide he sends a laser beam down the line with just a bit of skidding action to throw off the rhythm and balance of his opponent. even from a seemingly awkward and defensive position he has pretty much neutralized his opponents high and spinning ball from behind the baseline. parry...thrust. like a fencer with some fancy sword play. feigning...then attacking. retreat...then suddenly a reversal of order. all retreats are tactical in nature...only to buy a little time. he is playing to win...not to draw. it is all calculated to arrive at the finish line or match point poised to plunge the sword between the shoulder blades. along the way you tire your opponent...you anger him when possible to emotionally impair his judgement and to distract him of his impending doom. then all of a sudden its the coup de gras...nice guys finish last if mcenroe has a say so.

BHSlice Wide CourtLevel Rear1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear1.mov

on a very low ball and very wide to his backhand mcenroe does the easiest thing...he sends it back on a identical trajectory and a identical angle. challenging his opponent...”let’s see you do it again”. a little psychological warfare. all of the time. it’s a bit of a mind you know what when playing johnny bad boy.

BHSlice Wide CourtLevel Rear2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear2.mov

i love this shot. hit right into the teeth of his opponents strength. a low skidding ball crosscourt to the opponents forehand. daring him to change the direction of the rally...go ahead, make my day and try something up the line from this awkward position he is challenging his opponent. if the opponent goes for the challenge he best make good on it because now he goes into the teeth of the lefty mcenroes game. up the line into the forehand and you will be chasing the next one to the backhand or he is going to hit it behind you. all designed to make you feel awful.

BHSliceWideRear1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...eWideRear1.mov

a beautiful angle to view a seemingly innocuous shot from mcenroe. chased to the backhand sideline and feet too far apart to play aggressively he does the smart thing...once again. he doesn’t make many unforced errors does he? he isn’t giving it away. a nice slice to the opponents backhand designed to stay low and under the radar. the options? back into the forehand of mcenroe? back to the backhand? i can see mcenroe calculating both possibilities...always one step ahead. he won’t necessarily beat you with speed all of the time...he is going to outthink you. he wins on the basis of his decisions which are made possible with the variation of his options.

BHSliceWideRear2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...eWideRear2.mov

same thing. it is getting boring isn’t it? he never out and out messes up. this time from almost the same position as the preceding shot he sends this one higher and deeper into his opponents backhand. after hitting his reply mcenroe asks himself the same question every single time...what are the possibilities and what are the percentage that he will try each and every one of them. then he positions himself accordingly. the beauty of the slice is the variations in it and the way that he can tactically deliver the goods while at the same time he is able to rule out certain possibilities giving him the opportunity to cover the court that he most likely needs to...the the n’th percentage of the time. the technique is simple...but the tactics are very, very sophisticated.

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe backhand as viewed playing SLICE...Part 1

SLICE

BHSlice Center Front- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterFront.mov

johnny...johnny. the flesh is weak only the soul is immortal. had to throw that in there. a line from a movie...johnny angel. robert deniro talking to mickey rourke. tsk...tsk, just a couple of guys. but anyways...here he is in the flesh. the slice backhand. this a medium paced slice drive, maybe a meter to a meter and a half over the net, deep into the backhand corner. successfully pulled off judging by the lack of concern as mcenroe calmly anticipates the reply.

a turn of the shoulders and the right hand sets the racquet open faced into position shoulder high. once again the perfect 3 lines to set up in the feet, the shoulders and the racquet. a slight turn of the hips and then the shoulders take over in a deliberate attempt to come “over the top” of the ball. from a point approximately at shoulder high the shoulders cast and drive the racquet down on the ball with the racquet head reaching a low point at the knees, a bit more follow through as the momentum of the racquet and the shoulders carries just a bit to the left of mcenroe. at impact the legs give a little drive into the swing possibly to carry the ball towards or on the baseline. note the lack of exaggeration in any part of the swing and steady descent of the racquet face down through the path of the ball. perfect balance...equals laser like precision and placement.

BHSlice Center Side1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterSide1.mov

here is an interesting variation of the slice. it appears that mcenroe may have just a tad less time to prepare as his feet are rather uncharacteristically set in less than perfect position. the ball is being played just above knee high with a driving motion of the shoulders heavily leaning down on the ball as he slices with a vengeance in order impart more spin and to keep the ball down as well. this is in all probability a low and skidding ball to the backhand side. low and skidding despite the fact this appears to be a clay like surface. a little more carry on the follow through and the driving of the legs at impact perhaps for more depth...more carry.

BHSlice Center Side2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterSide2.mov

mcenroes opponent has managed to get one up on him...up in the strike zone that is where the perceived weakness is. he does the smart thing and plays an almost volley like stroke with very little follow through and is playing a ball with a higher trajectory back into his opponents court. purely a neutralizing shot...played to a point where mcenroe has calculated that his opponent will have the smallest possible percentage of chance to hurt him with the next shot. he may even be calculating into the equation more damage on the next shot but you can bet he is already making his best guess as to what is coming next and perhaps he may have to gamble a bit on the next shot. the racquet face is set open as a pizza plate at the top of his backswing but is practically square at impact although slightly open. even though a defensive shot the racquet face is exposed to the ball as long as possible. much of mcenroes objectives with his slice backhand can be chalked up to placement and depth. along with the off speed characteristic it is often enough to throw the opponent off balance just enough so that they won’t be able to maul him with the next ball.

BHSlice Center CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear2.mov

moving from the forehand side of the court to nearly the backhand sideline, early racquet preparation enables mcenroe to play a nice solid neutralizing ball into his opponents backhand side. again the feet are in less than perfect position but the balance is there at impact. something that mcenroe and federer seem to excel at. he sort of cuts the follow through short leaving the racquet down into the ball that is perhaps an indication that he is trying to make the ball “lay down”. a subtle tactic...techniquely speaking. the slice of mcenroe is not so complicated technically speaking but the technique is tailored to suit the tactic...so to speak. he seems to play this slice from a less than perfect “3 line” setup more than he does his continental drive which makes all of the sense in the world. in order to drive with this grip you need perfect preparation in order to get all of your ducks in a row. part of the mcenroe paradigm on the backhand is when off balance play tactically with the slice to maneuver, manipulate or just to stall your opponent. keep him off balance...make him guess in the meantime. mcenroe is like the future...one never knows what’s coming.

BHSlice CourtLevel Front1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront1.mov

here is mcenroe with pretty decent balance taking a nice swipe at a slice and laying it down perhaps nearer to the middle of the court. perhaps to make his opponent play a low spinning ball from the middle in order to cut off the possibility of the angles. notice how far to the backhand side he is, but he makes very little attempt or hurry to get back and cover the forehand...maybe he is baiting his opponent to go to his forehand. with him it’s a constant chess game. you are very rarely going to get two balls in the same identical manner in the same spot. modern players typically will play the same ball for the duration of the match. just think...if you can find a way to neutralize the big gun, what are they going to fall back on? think tactically...like mcenroe.

BHSlice Wide CourtLevel Front2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront2.mov

here’s another story within the story with only a tiny bit of information to go on. the rest is imagination. a very high and very wide ball to the mcenroe backhand. what does he do? one thing he doesn’t do is panic. instead he uses his head and does the intelligent thing...he hits a slice drive down the middle and scampers back into recovery position to anticipate or guess at his opponents reply. interesting at the end as you see the opponents racquet back in his backswing high over his head. much of the mcenroe strategic game and tactics are to hit the ball lower in the strike zone against this type of player. so the perceived battle plan may be thought of as one of trying to get the other to play their game. this type of player will perceive that the weakness in the mcenroe game is the high ball while mcenroe recognizes that high backswings make one more vulnerable to low skidding shots. unfortunately for mcenroe opponents and critics...many times when these players attempt to go high, they end up going short as well which for mcenroe is an invitation to attack and hit the ball on the rise. it is so fun to hallucinate...don’t you think? a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[stotty]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront2.mov

It's the exaggerated lifting up of the body off any ball remotely high that troubles me.

Here is a clip I found on Youtube...in slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI-QiXbIw_I

Now, I'm not even sure we can truly call his grip continental. It may even be a teeny, weeny bit edging toward a forehand grip. We get the characteristic lifting up off the upper body (puffed out chest) around the contact point (pinned back look) as a compensative manœuvre to be able hit over the ball effectively. The tail end of the follow through often looks cut short...the hand...wrist...is seldom flung over as the shot completes as it does in say....hmm...anyone else. Look how Federer completes...flinging the hand and wrist as he rips through the tail end of the shot at the final completion of the follow through. You cannot do this with Mac's grip...the ball will end up in the stadium.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE

I guarantee you the only person who could ever get away with this ever so slightly unorthodox grip is Mac...for the rest of us...it's a flaw.

[bottle]

Spread Out Backswings

Six or seven or eight steps all while the racket is going gradually up.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_backhand/mac_backhand.html?MacBHSliceWideCourtLevelFront3.mov

Compare this to tennis instruction which says you should get the racket back as fast as possible.

[stotty]

Low start or grip

I think it's Mac's preference for starting with the racket head below the ball that hampers him when trying to hit over the higher ball. I think this may hamper him more than the continental grip. I had put it down to the grip but I'm now leaning towards Mac's low start being more the problem...or maybe both.

The plot thickens....love the simplicity of Mac's game...the footwork...and prep skills. The more don_budge analyses and breaks down the clips, the more I realize the secret lies in the preparation...he has so much time.

[don_budge]

Hogan says..."It's the lower body...!"

It could be that the only independent arm work at the beginning of this backswing, the down part, comes from curling the wrist.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_backhand/mac_backhand.html?MacBHCenterCourtLevelFront2.mov

this is what i said...

the truly beautiful thing about the mcenroe backhand is the perfectly repetitive nature of it and it all begins with his meticulous preparation. every swing is prepared with the 3 line setup...the feet first, the shoulders and then the racquet. from this position it is only a matter of turning the hips and shoulders back to the ball and allowing the arm to swing and the wrist to do its magic as the last part of the series of movements. mcenroe likes to start the racquet head below the ball and swing the racquet face through without much tilting or maneuvering. it is natural tennis. everything fits...metaphysically speaking. this is a ball that is being played down the line and probably deeper into the opponents backhand corner. a couple of small steps and mcenroe has positioned himself for the nest shot...always thinking ahead and anticipating.



bottle...let's think about this now. Remember the Hogan video. What did he say was the most important part of the swing? I believe that he demonstrated that the most important thing was to initiate things with the lower body. Remember how he emphasized that the hands dropping were a result of the lower body turn and not the shoulders turning. That "down part" is due to the hips beginning to turn which in turn starts the shoulders rotating so that the downward motion that you are referring to is a product of the shoulders actually leveling as a result of the hips turning.

The independent arm swinging happens right before impact all the way through the follow through. This grip has some rather amazing properties to it. Some of the sensations of the racquet head going through the ball have been quite surprising to me. This grip packs plenty of wallop if performed to the McEnroe specifications which are a bit difficult to understand without actually becoming intimate with all of the properties involved. I hope to be able to shed some light on the subject a little further down the line.

But one thing is for dead certain...you will never begin to understand them if you spend any amount of time beating your racquet into a wet towel or rug. The magic occurs just before and after impact. Besides...there is much more to be gleaned if for example you spend an hour hitting against the wall. I was right about one thing at least...and that is that this supinated wrist behaves a lot like the wrist does in the "other hand" of the golf swing. When the supination of the wrist unravels there is an unbelievable amount of energy released with very little effort.

Look at the position of his left thumb throughout the swing in the hitting zone and see the similarities to the other hand in the golf swing. These continental grips are the closest thing to the golf grip as related to tennis racquet grips...it seems to me. That being the case one can begin to use their knowledge about the golf swing to begin to understand what is actually happening with the continental grip. "Weaker grip" may be a bit of a misnomer.

[bottle]

Bird Balls

It is amazing how unhurried JM's backswing is in this sequence.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_backhand/mac_backhand.html?MacBHCenterCourtLevelFront2.mov

I think, don_budge, you are right when you say, in your description of it: "...the feet first, the shoulders and then the racquet."

It could be that the only independent arm work at the beginning of this backswing, the down part, comes from curling the wrist.

Like you and all participants, apparently, I am excited by this whole discussion which for me is a return to earlier concern. How these things go in cycles.

The year of the continental. So long as not the year of the edsel. Yes.

I was thinking this morning about starting a new thread called "The Birdball Backhand" but changed my mind when I saw this thread.

Also, I know I've got too much on the mind for an exhaustive study of birdball structure right now.

On the other hand I know that a birdbrain is exactly what I need to play best tennis.

By "birdball" structure, I mean the little ball at the top of the humerus (but one must keep good humerus) in a human being-- from which I project that there must be something similar at the top of an avian wing.

The thought has arrived that long stringy muscles attached to offset points on this human ball to turn it in various directions, though vastly improbable, apparently is the actual case.

A small ball! An offset connection! Where's the leverage in that?

Besides, there isn't much force in a flapping wing. When a bird is in a fight, it uses its beak and its feet, surely realizing that its wings are useless once it failed to fly away.

I guess I'm talking here about a thick mat of bloodstained white feathers all the way down our long mountain drive halfway down High Knob in Virginia.

My ex and I stayed at the tennis club for five minutes too long. We therefore didn't get our pet featherfoot into its outdoors night cage in time.

The possum which took it down the driveway, across the road and into a hole in boulders couldn't have cared less about the wings thumping on its back.

It's a pretty horrible story, but what I'm trying to say here is that there isn't much force available to roll one's arm in a one-hand backhand.

So what you, don_budge, say about the JM backhand being almost all body must be true.

Please keep going with this. Already I'm receiving some clarification, I think, about the role of wrist.

Wrist as often has been established is unconscious and complicated.

Does wrist go forward? Backward? Does McEnroe always straighten wrist at contact? Does he ever leave it curled?

If one left it curled along with bent arm, wouldn't one create a longer (if weaker) lever for rolling topspin?

All I know for sure is that my 1,8.5 eastern backhand with concave wrist when viewed from the top could not feel any more different.

[stotty]

Continental

Tennis Chiro refers to the "beating the rug" drill for getting a feel for the inherant weakness of the McEnroe continental grip. This is certainly true. If one goes out with the ball machine, one can certainly strike the ball harder with stronger grips off both sides. The genius of the McEnroe continental style is the econony of stroke production. One way to get a feel for this style is to simply hit against a wall. Using only the continental, it is much easier to not feel rushed and to move naturally into and between forehands and backhands. I feel very strongly that McEnroe is the best over 50 player ever. It is even more evident of the genius of his game now, watching him on the Champions Tour, than it was in his prime.

I really like Don Budge's experiment into the Mac style. He is a perfect candidate. He has advised he is 58 years old, a teaching pro(certainly an advanced player, probably 4.5 or 5.0 USTA rated), and is able to get measurable feedback through competition. So far, he is very encouraged.

To me, Federer is the natural progression of the McEnroe, taking the ball early, economy of motion style. Fed uses what appears to be a similar grip structure to Mac on the backhand style, even when he hits topspin. His grip looks to me to more continental and less eastern that most one handers like Gasquet and Wawrinka. I think this enables him to take the ball earlier, as he does, than other one handers. And then there is the Fed forehand, the prototype type 3, a mild semiwestern, taking the ball early with that ecomomy of motion. Certainly nothing like Mac's, except the economy of motion. But that forehand is certainly harder to duplicate that Mac's. No one yet looks like Fed's. Most of us certainly don't feel anywhere close to effortless when we get is a topspin forehand rally, particulary with a younger player.

I was just trying to think of a better over 50 player than Mac...maybe Gonzales would have been....Gonzales when 43 yrs old beat Connors 6-1 6-1. I believe Gonzales stopped playing competitively in his mid-forties. But, no, you have to give it to Mac...at 50...unbelievably good. I'm not sure it's down to playing style more than sheer talent, though.

I think you are right about continental and economy. Extreme grips just demand a more physical game...hitting heavy topspin is a physical business. I use a continental grip for all my shots which works well in my own age group and 10 years below. Where I get in big trouble is on hard courts against much younger players who can really work the ball with topspin. It just doesn't work.

Mac against Djokovic or Nadal probably wouldn't work either. On a hardcourt he'd get eaten for breakfast. Genius or no genius. That backhand of his would be a weakness. On grass...proper, fast grass...hmmm...be interesting.

Federer's backhand grip does seem conservative, and much of the time he's not hitting with that much topspin. I have seen Fed many times at Wimbledon so I can say this from live experience. I don't know what his average backhand RPM rate is on grass or whether it differs to his RPM rate on hard or clay. He does hit high backhands better than Mac did...even Mac at his zenith. I suspect Fed's grip is slightly further round.

So interesting these Mac threads..."death by a thousand cuts"...that's a good way to describe a carving up by Mac.