A New Teaching System: The Serve: Role of the Legs

[giancarlo]

Why do most women have a pinpoint stance?

Women and the pinpoint stance. Check the site and it's hard to find a single player with a platform stance. Kutznetsova has a mild, Roddick-like platform (Henin had one, then changed back). So, interesting discussions arise when a teenager asked why she should use the platform then. I can tell you why, but am right now more interested in finding out who is teaching The pinpoint--and for what reason. Is it a coincidence? Do all of their coaches have a pinpoint themselves? If anyone has a hypothesis please share.

Thank You,
GC.

[bottle]

Behold the Modern Shot-Putter

When a bad front leg FORCES you to drive off of your back leg, you may come just a tad closer to the Beckerian motion.

Not that this makes you an expert on Boris Becker's serve or even on whether he drives primarily off of front leg or back leg or both.

I just know, that, despite being fairly decrepit (which also is good for conning people), I'm serving some aces by putting all the emphasis of back leg drive on turning the hips with violence like a shot-putter who then kicks violently backward with what just was his "front foot."

I certainly wouldn't do that on a second serve, where I want to keep front leg connected to the court, but I seem to be generating more first serve pace with topspin than in a couple of decades.

And then, like Geoff's guy who finds the candy bar cached under the ice near the north pole (assuming the ice hasn't melted yet), I'm simply happy enough to become opinionated and snobby about other kinds of motion that suddenly seem mannered, overly complex and affected.

One example of affectation could be the clacking of feet together before the rear leg kicks back of Ryan Harrison.

I always struggled, from platform stance, with even getting the airborne tennis shoes close to one another, and when I did it, it did nothing for me.

So I welcome the simplicity of a one burst first serve propulsion system that uses rear leg for nine tenths contribution to speeding hips rotation and the other tenth for clearing front foot off of the court.

[klacr]

Geoff, I agree for the simple point you make about getting to the net faster. It makes sense. I'd just like to actually see it and curious to measure it. Do players knowingly shorten it when they go to the net? Do players exaggerate it knowing they have time because they are staying back? Maybe I'm thinking too much about it but that's better than not thinking at all.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

Sampras had very little kick back, and Becker, due to the need to get to the net faster. No one talks about how quickly circular Sampras' motion was, or how the circle related to his relaxed speed of pronated forearm, which snapped straight forward and down. He was the most dependable server under pressure the game has ever known, taught by the child molester: Fischer. Wonder if he ever went after Pete? Probably not. Pete had the best volley for a kid I've ever seen. Very fast, very aggressive, able to withstand 19 straight losses and still believe in changing to a one hander! Who could do that today>? Also notice how his chest stays facing the back fence, even at trophy, and how his frame is still lagging when leg drive begins up. Then the frame really speeds up to get down to lowest point extremely quickly! Way higher elbow than Fed, way faster snap off of forearm. Way higher rpms. sampras motion
sampras serve oh

For all you guys who don't beieve in gut: Federer: vs (made at their factory and slapped with a Wilson label, same price, same string) Sampras, Joker, Murray, Edberg, Becker, Mac, Connors, Laver, all played with it. Serena just switched to a gut/alu hybrid, from all gut. If you want max power/touch/feel/control gut is the way to go, with a hybrid. Black code, alu, 4s, etc. Gut in the mains. For those who want their games to improve, who don't care about money. Nadal is the one hold out with the junior set up: 4 1/4 grip, used the same bad poly duralast for 12 years and still uses the same apd original with a lying paint job. apd
nadal frame

[klacr]

Stotty,

you bring up some interesting questions. I love it.

The kick-back is a unique feature in the servers. In my experience using the pinpoint stand and platform stance, I feel I have a more pronounced kick back with a platform stance as almost a "regain balance and break step". With the pinpoint I do it naturally but kinesthetically I feel its not as exaggerated nor hold it nearly as long as with the platform. I've never taped myself so I can't say with fact, but thats just how it feels.

It's taken me awhile to write this post because I went scavenging like a hungry bear through the stroke archives to see if I could discover a difference in the length of the kickback of a player with a platform (Federer) that stayed back on some points and that was serving and volleying on others. I also looked at a player with a pinpoint (Krajicek) that stayed back on some points and served and volleyed on others. Sadly, It looks like nearly all the videos that had a good angle of the kick back of Krajicek serving only had him coming in. His opponent (Costa) was returning floaters so it wasn't ideal.

To make a long story short, I'd love to say I can tell a difference in the length of the kickback and exaggeration between the different styles but it would only be a placebo or pollyanna effect thus rendering my research null and void.

Also, Krajicek and Federer have different serving rhythms and tosses so that may play a part. Sadly, we cannot clone Krajicek or Fed and teach them each other's motions as well. But perhaps we can view players of same service rhythms staying back as well as S&V and compare the degree of kick back.

Despite difference in styles, both these players mentioned have ridiculously good, smooth serves. I tried to emulate one of them in my career

It's a great discussion that I could wax poetic about but sadly, due to selfish reasons and hunger

(For the epicureans amongst us: I have an amazing whole Sun-dried tomato and tuscan olive encrusted Branzino with a Cremini mushroom risotto I'm preparing tonight.)

Thanks for listening.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johnyandell]

All,

Thanks for the great words! And on the kick back I don't have a definitive answer. I think though that it goes beyond rebalancing although it is also key to that. I think it helps keep the posture upright and the player from bending too much at the waist. My feeling is that without it the impact of the uncoiling of the legs is reduced.

What if Stitch had had a deep knee bend? Becker? Not even sure what I think about his leg action...As Kyle points out there are certainly different ways to the same goal. Lots and lots of great pinpoint servers. So I would never try to say my view is right or absolute--just my view based on my experience.

[stotty]

Kick back

Is kick back a by-product of driving up with the legs...or of rectifying one's balance after rotation...or both? What purpose does it serve? Is it merely a rebalancing feature or is surplus energy dissipating...or both?

To me it looks like a rebalancing feature and not much else. Interesting that Michael Stich served so well without any kick back. Would a serve volleyer have less kick back than a baseliner, being as a baseliner would be looking to brake and retreat back behind the baseline?

The science behind kick back puzzles me.

Players that landed on the "wrong" foot such a Becker and Stich and others...how do they figure in kick back? Stich had none. Becker's so called kick back is merely part of his run to the net, isn't it? Wrong foot landers have mostly been serve volleyers...crossing over their feet to run to the net.

I notice Pancho Gonzales is devoid of kick back, maybe because of having to keep his left foot on the ground (the rule back in the day).

What's the big deal about kick back? Why is it considered so essential? I think it is desirable in a baseliner. But is it nearly so critical in a serve volleyer?

[GeoffWilliams]

The whole reason of the leg drive, is to lower the rear hitting shoulder so it has more kinetic momentum available.

[klacr]

Of all the segments on the serve in this new teaching system collection, i feel that "the role of the legs" is the best.

Before I started teaching, I never gave much thought about it. I just stepped up to the line, visualized Richard Krajicek's motion and hit my serve. Once I began teaching I noticed the difference and began to discover all the differences. With the help of tennisplayer.net of course. Very cool Stuff John.

Personally, I've always used the pinpoint stance when playing. For me, it's just my thing. But, within the last 2 years I have been able to use the platform when I'm teaching and I can definitely feel the difference and I've hit some pretty solid serves with it.

Very great to see all these components of the serve coming together in this Teaching System. Learning and Seeing so much each time. Can't wait for next month.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

The Package is coming together nicely...

Would love to hear what you thought of my latest - "A New Teaching System: The Serve: Role of the Legs"

john...

your series on the serve is really coming together nicely. i remember when you first rolled it out and someone was quasi complaining about your use of an introduction. it is interesting looking back on those comments...and i understood at the time their relevance to the writer without necessarily agreeing. in hindsight we can appreciate that the package deserved a layout...a peek at the synopsis behind your organization.

the sum of the parts is what is developing into the strength of this package. this package is developing synergy. the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. by delivering the lesson piece meal we are getting a sequential shot of a very complicated motion and thus a very difficult thing to describe in it's entirety...particularly in one sitting. like mlogarzo points out in his work with the australian princess...he is taking it step by step. starting at the beginning and working towards the end. and then you work your way backwards until the thing is fluid going forwards and backwards. the tennis serve...it's a beautiful thing when performed as it should be. with perfection in mind.

this installment of your discussion is particularly enlightening and i don't know if i have ever heard the role of the legs and feet so eloquently and yet simply expressed. i think that this series has been a very successful venture on your part. by allowing further contribution from the forum your program is actually lifted off of the video screen...lifted out of the pages of script...into a sort of a reality all of it's own. it has life.

it's been a very interesting experience. the contributions of mlogarzo and licensedcoach by submitting students of theirs enable us...the reader and coaches to decipher from our own experience problems in teaching the serve to students and with the help of comparing with your well chosen model as well as other examples of great serving to further our understanding of one of the greatest and most beautiful motions in all of sports...the service motion.

"why the platform stance", you rhetorically ask. i find it particularly satisfying that you believe in the platform stance for the reasons that you point out. at the risk of saying it...i agree with you. ha ha ha. looking forward to the rest of the installments...having thoroughly enjoyed the articles and the ensuing discussions so far.

i feel that the acid test of educational tools is the amount and the quality of the discussion that they generate after the fur stops flying. just beautiful!

[don_budge]

The Transcript...for those of us with short term memory problems

The transcript..."A New Teaching System: The Serve: Role of the Legs"-John Yandell

This is John Yandell and in this new series on the serve, we’ve looked in detail at the factors in achieving technical excellence for the windup, the toss, the racquet drop, the swing path and the contact point.

Now in the next two articles, let’s turn our attention to the lower body and the rotation of the torso. Starting in this article with the legs. The interaction of the feet with the court surface is critical in all the strokes in tennis and this is especially true with the serve. The coiling and uncoiling of the legs is a major source of racquet speed that contributes to ball velocity and levels of spin.

There are bewildering options in the way that top players use the legs, including differences in the starting stances, in the movement of the feet during the motion, in the timing and the amount of the knee bend, as well in the landing and the kick back motion of the rear leg. So let’s sort all that out and create some clear, technical keys in developing the maximum leg drive in your motion.

Of particular importance let’s examine what new research shows about the critical relationship about the timing of the uncoiling of the legs and the timing of the upwards swing. A factor that is virtually unknown to most players and coaches but that can have a huge impact on your ability to find your real potential and consistently maximize power and spin.

The role of the legs in pro tennis varies widely with the player just as do so many technical elements. Players start the motion in narrower stances or wider stances. Some keep the feet in place...others move the back foot upward, forward and even around the front foot in a wide number of variations. Most players push off with the rear foot first but for some the timing of the feet leaving the court is virtually the same. Obviously it is possible to serve well with all of these variations.

But for the vast majority of players, the simplest and most effective way to incorporate the leg drive in your serve is through a platform stance. In a platform, the feet basically stay in position until the player leaves the court. This is in contrast to the numerous variations of the pinpoint stance in which the back foot is moving sideways or forward or around before the launch.

Why the platform stance? First...it has less movement with fewer variables to master. Second...it typically incorporates more push from the back leg. Third...it is more conducive to the left ball position inside the hitting hand at contact that we saw as the key to developing a top spin component. Fourth...it lays the groundwork for experimenting with additional body rotation as we will see in the next article. And finally...the way the platform looks and the way it feels. Elegant, simple, easy to replicate and very powerful. In this article we will use the basic elements from Roger Federer’s leg action as well as the option of a simpler starting stance depending upon your level.

In all stances one key is to align the front foot so it’s parallel, or close to that with the baseline. The leg action is actually simple. As your arms drop, let your weight drop until both feet are basically flat on the court. Now continue and let your knees bend so that you naturally come up on the balls of both feet. To determine your maximum bend go down as far as you can without squatting or leaning forward at the waist. A good test is to do this standing on the front foot.

You should reach this position with your tossing arm extended and if you have classic timing on your windup with your racquet arm in the trophy position. Now let the motion naturally explode into the ball. Don’t try to jump. Your legs will naturally uncoil into the motion. The key that you should focus on is the kick back with the rear leg. Visualize your shoe pointing directly back at the back fence. Your lower leg should be roughly parallel to the court. If you already have an offset stance with the feet parallel to the baseline this leg action should work automatically. But if you are currently pointing the front toe at an angle the simplest option is to align the feet so they are about shoulder width with the tips of the toes in line or something close.

The landing on the front foot should be with the heel just inside the baseline or a foot or even two feet further depending on your toss, contact point and explosiveness. Wherever the exact landing, it should be on balance with the torso basically straight up and down. Brian Gordon’s research has discovered that the timing of the launch in relation to the timing of the swing is critical. To maximize the effect, the push with the legs should end at about the time as the racquet tip reaches the lowest point in the swing. This is typically with the front leg fully straightened and the racquet angled across the back. A few split seconds before it reaches the pro drop position described in the previous article.

Evaluating the timing of the push is only possible through the use of on court high speed video analysis. It’s also critical for understanding the timing of the coiling of the legs and the position of the rear foot in the kick back.

So that’s it for the role of the legs and I hope the information in this article has been as eye opening for you as it has been for us at TennisPlayer. Stay tuned for another controversial subject...the amount and timing of the body rotation.

Transcript provided verbatim by yours truly...don_budge.

[johnyandell]

Would love to hear what you thought of my latest - "A New Teaching System: The Serve: Role of the Legs"