The ATP Two Handed Backhand: The Forward Swing

[stotty]

It's a superb article. I am going to read it a few times over to fully grasp it. I am really looking forward to any upcoming tips in the next article that will enable me to teach it to students.

When did all this stuff start happening? Is flipping primarily a product (helped along by) of the modern technology?

And another question (to anyone out there). I was looking in the archive to see where Borg stands in all this. When did Borg start hitting a full two-hander and stop releasing the left arm just after contact? In 1981 he had a one-and-half-handed backhand (as don_budge affectionately calls it) yet the archive shows him with a two-hander from start to finish. Take a look...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/bjornborg/bb_backhand/bborg_backhand.html?BBBHWideSide.mov

Strange what you can stumble across when you were primarily looking for something else.

[BrianGordon]

Sorry to obsess about same question. I thought it might come from lateral flexion but felt I was negatively impacting posture when I saw result from students. I feel uncomfortable telling them to raise trapezius to achieve position. So I have know idea myself so asking you. Again thanks Brian.

Yeah - I don't know either - especially since I can't hit a 2 hander. As I play with the positions though I do notice that a certain amount of scapular elevation is needed because the top arm is on top. Also, I can feel some potentially beneficial stretching in the scapular region and probably the ability to recruit and or place shoulder complex/trunk muscles in better mechanical position.

To be honest though, the marker placement in my measurement system precludes me from isolating scapular rotation from torso rotation (at least in the field) so I'm going to have to play the dah card... for now - it is an interesting idea for future study though as is the motion of shoulder complex (as opposed to shoulder joint) in all strokes in general.

In the meantime I'll have some of my "lab rats" play with positions and see what they say and do, and... for now I'll allow slight elevation but I won't be explaining it as leaning in like I was taught back in the day

Great observations!!!

[bobbyswift]

Sorry to obsess about same question. I thought it might come from lateral flexion but felt I was negatively impacting posture when I saw result from students. I feel uncomfortable telling them to raise trapezius to achieve position. So I have know idea myself so asking you. Again thanks Brian.

[bobbyswift]

Thank you so much for your response Brian. Your answer about follow thru is making me like Murrays as a teaching model. Same question about left shoulder in right hander. Novak Andy most everyone I have looked at has a elevated shoulder both in the backswing and at contact. Looking at the stroke archive from side views. Also the contact from front or rear view again the shoulder appears elevated. It gives the appearance of old school concept of player leaning into the ball. Wondering if I am wrong. Thanks

[BrianGordon]

Thanks to all that took the time to respond and for the words of encouragement.

To Roartt: Agassi is definitely type 3 - just the straight-straight version.

On the use by others of "flip" and other concepts - it is what it is

The three articles have been incredible. Two questions that I have is why the rear left shoulder is lifted in the backswing and at contact. I also see a huge difference in Murray in that his follow thru his hands are never higher than his shoulders. Novak has a much higher finish and am wondering what the significance is in the difference.

Thanks Bobby - the elevated shoulder is typical of some with the hands very low in the pull back - can't think of a real mechanical rationale - I prefer more level shoulders for several reasons.

The height of the hands in the finish indicates events leading up to impact for me. The angle of the hand path in the forward swing in one determinant of shot trajectory. The vertical racquet head motion from shoulder internal rotation is also a trajectory factor. I didn't get into all of that for simplicity. But... for a given trajectory, more internal rotation is generally coupled with a flatter hand path (and lower subsequent finish). All of this is quite variable of course shot to shot and player to player. Very interesting question!

[roartt]

Please explain "flipping"? :-)

[stotty]

Stotty,

Interesting! Was Brian referenced in that discussion of the flip? All LTA coaches obviously have access to Tennisplayer--just curious if the origins are being acknowledged.

It was fairly informal stuff...but yes interesting. Not all coaches are aware of the original source by any means. Brian Gordon does get mentioned and more and more coaches are becoming aware of the flip. It just takes time to spread. The problem is there are Youtube clips out there giving no reference to yourself or Brian...as if to say it was their invention.

Go into lots of clubs here and you will still hear "Get your racket back early". Old habits die hard. Some coaches just want to make a living and nothing else.

I did go on a course last year with around twenty coaches attending. All of them knew about Tennisplayer and their standard of knowledge was high, impressively high. This is not the case on every course I go on but certainly a step in the right direction.

Needless to say I fly the TP flag wherever I go...

[johnyandell]

Stotty,

Interesting! Was Brian referenced in that discussion of the flip? All LTA coaches obviously have access to Tennisplayer--just curious if the origins are being acknowledged.

[johnyandell]

Stotty,

Interesting! Was Brian referenced in that discussion of the flip? All LTA coaches obviously have access to Tennisplayer--just curious if the origins are being acknowledged.

[stotty]

So Agassi is not a type 3 backhand or did i misunderstand?

This is where it can get tricky. A coach educator where I live recently asked a group of coaches to identify out of twenty clips which players were flipping and which weren't, kind of like a quiz. Many coaches wrongly identified elements of the ATP 3 backhand and forehand and made wrong judgements.

[roartt]

So Agassi is not a type 3 backhand or did i misunderstand?

[bobbyswift]

The three articles have been incredible. Two questions that I have is why the rear left shoulder is lifted in the backswing and at contact. I also see a huge difference in Murray in that his follow thru his hands are never higher than his shoulders. Novak has a much higher finish and am wondering what the significance is in the difference.

[bottle]

Who is "Stud?" Certainly not I! But I went back and looked at Post # 3 just to make sure that nobody thought I was being sarcastic. I am absolutely on the level when I call the paragraph I quoted "brilliant." But maybe I should have taken the cue from Studenti, I mean Studini, and stuck with the word I first had down here, "inspiring."

I don't think an impartial but engaged reader can peruse this material and not then try some of these Type 3 two-hand backhands even if he only has one-handers.

The Type 3 2-hander as described here is just too interesting and different from Serena's and even from Rafa's.

I've got an old racket in this house and have been walking around in the living room trying not to hit the ornaments. (Haven't taken down the tree yet, you see.) After I do the dishes.

Maybe the test of any great athletic move is whether you can slow it way down and still keep the different parts intact and in flow. If I'm going to make my new two-hander work on an actual tennis court I think I'll have to swing it slower than I want, at least at first.

Interesting question, this challenge of finding a few sentences that approximate some tennis stroke (one sentence only would be perfect). And I wouldn't care at all who wrote it, BG, JY or RM. Because the sentence doesn't really exist until the reader swings his racket. Some crusty old grammarian might object to prose with too many hands in it to keep them straight from one another but who cares about her?

Only community college students who never had the good luck to meet her.

I have yet to see the evidence that cardio sessions lead to great tennis strokes. Tennis strokes are intricate, it seems to me, and the words used to describe them frequently require deciphering with a racket in one's mitts.

I'm sorry for this but can't do anything about it. The best chess players are not lazy. They go to the trouble of learning chess notation for which they become glad afterwards, and tennis is half chess according to the USPTA coach, Jim Kacian, who worked with me.

I'm sure that Studini and I both thank you, John, for your response.

Note: The word "coupling" as applied to Type 3 2-hander also begs for new thought. Tell me, reader, were you familiar with this word "coupling" (in this context) before? Maybe so but I sure wasn't. All I've ever heard from the commentatoes is "2-hander is a left handed forehand in disguise" and "Wow, she has a strong opposite hand driving the 2-hander through." Okay, but reciprocal higher arm straightening and lower arm bending here (coupling) figures in Djokovic's magic too.

Note 2: Studini: the Houdini among all tennis students.

[johnyandell]

Stud,

Yes, my head has finally stopped throbbing from doing the edit... But this is the real deal from actual data and it is what it is... Brian is going to do a simple coaching summary next...that will help.

[bottle]

I read this article for its insights into forehand since I am near the end of my tennis career and not about to abandon my one hand backhands.

Still, a paragraph such as the following is so brilliant that I almost want to give a trial to my two-hander again (I had one once for a year or so):

At the same time the bottom arm elbow needs to bend from its previous straight pulling position. Otherwise it can interfere with the rotation of the top arm. This bending in the bottom arm increases the available range for top arm shoulder internal rotation. It may also allow shoulder external rotation in the bottom arm to assist the top arm in creating vertical racquet head speed.