Internal Shoulder Rotation: Key to Serving Power

[gzhpcu]

Reread the article. Well written and easily understandable. I understand now the importance of the internal shoulder rotation in winding up the arm\\\'s swing, ending up in forearm pronation. Vic Braden used to say you should not think of scratching your back on the racket takeback, but of scratching a friend\\\'s back. Now I understand why.

What I also meant to say is that the role of the external shoulder rotation on the takeback setting up a stretch/shorten cycle to have a better internal shoulder rotation/pronation also made a click in my head. This leads to the drop of the racket to the side of the body and not behind the back. I have tried it out, and get more zip on my serve.

[johnyandell]

Testing \'\'\'

[stotty]

Reread the article. Well written and easily understandable. I understand now the importance of the internal shoulder rotation in winding up the arm\\\\\\\'s swing, ending up in forearm pronation. Vic Braden used to say you should not think of scratching your back on the racket takeback, but of scratching a friend\\\\\\\'s back. Now I understand why.

Oddly enough I reread the article recently also. Posts by 10splayer and tennis_chiro made me curious about internal rotation. And yes its a great article. Dead easy to understand and a must for all coaches to read.

[gzhpcu]

Reread the article. Well written and easily understandable. I understand now the importance of the internal shoulder rotation in winding up the arm\'s swing, ending up in forearm pronation. Vic Braden used to say you should not think of scratching your back on the racket takeback, but of scratching a friend\'s back. Now I understand why.

[tennis_chiro]

I realise this, Phil, but my point was that an overwhelming percentage of power seems to come from internal shoulder rotation and, the way I understand it, the upper arm.

No question a lot of power comes from the legs, but not through flexion/extension of the knees. The legs rotate the pelvis and the torque is what gets transferred to the shoulder and then the arm. The great example is 2002 US Open semifinalist Sheng Schalken, almost no knee bend whatsoever. Could he have served bigger with a little knee flexion/extension? Certainly, but he was able to serve consistently in the mid-teens without it. Flexion/extension of his knees was not going to get him more than 5 or 10% (which certainly would have been substantial for him). But he had to be already getting significant power from his legs to be able to serve as well as he did.

All this emphasis on getting more leg drive is missing the point that you have to be able to get the ball in and to a target. It becomes more difficult the more you move the base around with extreme knee bend.

Then we have the whole question of driving off the ground vs jumping like a volleyball server.

These extreme efforts to get players a couple of more mph on their first serves is destroying their ability to execute correct snap of the kinetic chain in a repeatable manner that gets them a high first serve percentage and eliminates double faults.

I want to see a kid perfect his kinetic chain action standing on the ground with no steps whatsoever before he starts even swinging the back leg into the court (yes, that means the front foot never leaves the ground in the service action).

Then I want him to start driving off the ground so the followthrough of his hit has his front foot actually leave the ground and land inside the baseline (first , just on it).

If we get all that perfected (haven't seen it yet), then I want to see him start to drive up and toss the ball so it takes him into a landing as much as a foot inside the baseline like a Krajicek. But that might actually be a negative if he is not going to the net because his momentum is going to take him fully into no man's land by the time the return is being struck.

If you can hit alternate corners consistently at 120mph with good disguise, you can hit aces against anyone. Some of Sampras's best serves were at about 100 mph slicing out wide.

When you start trying to extract every ounce of power from every joint in the body, as Phil accurately points out just above here, you are going to sacrifice the actual result. Consistency and accuracy are not measured in lbs/sq. in., but they definitely are measured on the scoreboard.

don

[gzhpcu]

I realise this, Phil, but my point was that an overwhelming percentage of power seems to come from internal shoulder rotation and, the way I understand it, the upper arm.

Ah yes, I misread your post. The internal shoulder rotation is a commonality of all the good servers from Budge/Gonzales forwards...

[stotty]

Isn't the serve a complex kinetic chain of multiple factors? Some pros accentuate certain aspects more than others. I think it is impossible to incorporate all aspects optimally. Another factor is the physical attributes of the player: height, weight, arm flexibility, leg muscles, shoulder flexibility, etc. One will tend to attempt to achieve an optimal mix based on these.

I realise this, Phil, but my point was that an overwhelming percentage of power seems to come from internal shoulder rotation and, the way I understand it, the upper arm.

[gzhpcu]

Isn't the serve a complex kinetic chain of multiple factors? Some pros accentuate certain aspects more than others. I think it is impossible to incorporate all aspects optimally. Another factor is the physical attributes of the player: height, weight, arm flexibility, leg muscles, shoulder flexibility, etc. One will tend to attempt to achieve an optimal mix based on these.

[stotty]

Power...

In some ways doesn't this article explain why many players can serve pretty much flat out just from just their stance...or even from the trophy position? This passage from external to internal rotation seems to be responsible for much of the power a server gets.

I am sure knee bending and driving upwards are power contributors also, but maybe less so than many coaches think?

I have been on courses where knee has been cited as delivering 30% of a server's power. Perhaps this was an exaggeration?

When I look at many servers today, the main thing that seems to be less prevalent than in previous generations (or given less attention to) seems to be weight transfer. In some cases it's hardly present at all; in others it's done in an odd way. Makes you wonder whether it is no longer considered a valid source of power...or even rhythm.

[bottle]

To me, one of the first ideas to learn should be that, although one rolls the arm, one tries not to sacrifice arm stability.

True instability likely would come from starting with the strings way open behind you and then closing them severely in the wild hope that they would get square or slightly beveled at contact and then continue to roll over.

Nice idea and you might hit a great shot once in a while, i.e., the pitch at contact be what you desired through sheer luck or because you are such a beautiful animal.

This unstable roll as well would likely direct energy to the side rather than the-forward-and-up that produces good "dwell."

A better percentage shot for most people comes from closing the racket behind you whether from choice of grip or other factors.

Now as racket starts to pass you and go out front it naturally can open to square or near square.

Combining this with arm roll means that you must re-balance all factors in relation to each other but at least you are within the realm of consistent possibility.

Ideally the natural opening combines with the various rolls to produce more verticality (racket wipes up rather than across).

Is speed of natural opening the same as speed of racket closing so that the two speeds cancel each other out producing verticality (again, racket going up rather than across)? I don't know. I only know I don't want to cross the ball.

Another factor is how much I as a right-hander placed the strings on right edge of the ball.

A huge factor lies in what proportion of arm roll is from upper arm compared to lower arm.

Lower arm produces more stability but less power. How much do Roger or Guga keep elbow pointed down until after contact? Could be different.

Balancing all the elements to combine desired pitch and dwell with shoulder twist power may be the big trick.

[stotty]

It certainly does. A good place to start is right here: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._rotation.html

[waga]

Does shoulder rotation apply to forehand as well?

If so is there any content on tennisplayer.net that you can refer me to that demonstrates this please?

[bottle]

Thanks for the Reminder

For those with "retarded shoulders"… a three week program with Ester. You have to admit that she is easy on the eyes. Improve your shoulder rotation…internal and external by doing these exercises religiously for three weeks. Warning…do not stretch beyond your comfort zone.

My thoughts on the article to follow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppToA1N0CgE

Thanks for the reminder (and don't be late!) of my three-week date with Esther. If we marry, she can be Esther Escher.

[bottle]

Back at Home in Michigan: Sorry I didn't Reply Sooner

If you are interested in the structure and how ISR functions, I suggest that you buy a reference on Kinesiology, such as, The Manual of Structural Kinesiology, Thompson .... an older edition such as the 15th is fine. It discusses the details and has crystal clear illustrations. With a $10 used copy and about an hour you will understand all there is about internal shoulder rotation.

The tricky feature is that the tendon of the lat muscle - on your back - attaches on the front of the upper arm. The lat tendon attaches right next to the pec's tendon on the front of the relaxed humerus. When you externally rotate and raise the arm and then shorten both the lat and pec muscles you pull on both tendons and produce internal shoulder rotation. Surprisingly, muscles located on the chest and back produce the same joint motion.

Here is a working demo for ISR - Take a soda straw designed with a line on it. Cut a wide rubber band in two equal pieces. Tape one end of each piece to the same spot on the straw (tape runs around the straw) about an inch from one end. Put the end of the straw on a nail to serve as a pivot, a small piece of wood helps hold the nail and attach the rubber bands. One rubber band represents the pec and the other the lat. Try to position the rubber bands as the lat and pec are held on your body, on the front and back. That set up makes for a working demo of internal shoulder rotation on the serve. Rotate the straw backward to simulate external shoulder rotation and let it go for ISR.

I applaud your open contribution to this great discussion, your ability and inclination to follow up, as it were. You didn't have to do that but you did.

Clearly, I thought there was only one stringy band attached to a bump on the humerus when in fact there are two bands and two bumps (I guess). I'll learn whether two bumps or one bump later.

This misconception (one band instead of two) made me think that God or whatever created this skittles-like spinning top must have been drunk. The two strings still seem a bit improbable but now one can conceive of stabilization though a pulling in the same direction from opposite direction.

You say to order this and try that-- very sensible-- but while I'm waiting for THE MANUAL OF STRUCTURAL KINESIOLOGY to arrive, I can place the smooth shaft of the Mexican cane I just bought in my palms and spin it in both directions.

The snake jaws on the curved end then spin wildly. The cane is a west coast Mexican rattlesnake with full markings tinged green.

I totally agree with Stotty that "as you get older you are screwed," but on the other hand, Chas, suddenly to learn that the interior of the shoulder is very different from what you imagined refers back again to your learning theme and conceivably could make a new difference in a genuine tennis student's serve if not that of the natural who serves 40 aces per match.

At the very least the person would become more aware of simultaneous twitch from pec and lat-- how could that hurt?

Where concentration goes, the energy flows, and that's what grows.

Or, as a tall Swede in Mexico said, "We don't see things unless we're looking for them, and then they show up. The human mind is a powerful thing."

So is this Swede's human body.

Apparently, she was sunbathing by the side of an infinity pool at the top of an old volcano above Puerto Vallarte (which is built on the Sierra Madre). I didn't see this, only heard about it, but did swim three times in that pool.

Not much was going on at the top of Puerto Vallarte, up past Gringo Gulch where the actors making NIGHT OF THE IGUANA stayed. An infinity pool is the kind where water goes to the very edge and appears to spill down into the jungle but collects in a gutter instead.

Anyone swimming in that particular development gets a lot of attention from 37 housing units towering above. Contrariwise, one can float on one's back and watch or imagine what is going on in all 37 units like Jimmy Stewart in Alfred Hitchcock's REAR WINDOW.

When the Swede lying on her stomach-- Camilla-- undid the back of her bikini-- the 37 housing units were knocked out or scandalized, depending.

I heard about this first, then found myself at the beach of Banderas Bay at Swell's just past Daiquiri Dick's.

Right in front of me was Camilla, sunbathing and eating something avidly with a big knife. Mussels? Who eats on the beach with such a big knife?

My friend (Hope, the friend, Jules Dassin and I all grew up in Middletown, Connecticut, I guess you could say) told me that Camilla owns her own house and always dresses to the nines and has a terrific job selling time shares for the best hotel.

She was talking to my friend but saying how she enjoyed talking to nobody (the Garbo thing). One thinks also of the Liv Ullman thing: "Sex never hurt nobody."

Right after Camilla made the statement about the human mind, my friend arranged an introduction for me.

"Hello Camilla," I said.

We went in the water then.

When we returned to our place, she was gone.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVr2_9tlUdzYAHbkPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=skittles+the+game&tnr=21&vid=F91FB4D9E2F4C816A258F91FB4D9E2F4C816A258&l=92&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608053282360330109%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11r71sitp&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFNcyLUXMvsg&sigr=11b3nelp1&tt=b&tit=Skittles+The+Game&sigt=10ht3ftbj&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dvideo%2Bof%2Bskittles%252C%2Bthe%2Bgame%26type%3Dch.40.xp._.18-01.us.dis_ts._._%26param1%3DrVLLjtQwEPwVLvHNUfs9Ofgwj4200gqtYNBydWwnE9g81s4E-Hs6QcCVA4qV6mp3l7pL9n2whWk01IejYRfKaiGprI-GHjmraQ3qLGplxPGkCxNIsExUnAtgTAEACdkuGVhFXt3Y2TiSAfW84OACd9pUQZrAXBN5YNJ5H2WsoqZCKyVU0BJAtmyrg4rjJ0QTglHqYMAr0Qgyo1p2bezuLgUyJyRktexQshJKKQU531OK4_Lsuvjpw5O9LctcCFfwFs_wI0eX_K10a1f6acDUjHUZ8fdFnr8Xoo15XgsReMG17wNGBVfm9E-WYOEF24a97b_tjYqbnygZR4xDxmi3GcmckGS3pbeZgUkKnDIcXiEB3F4o_DGFFdtWf83amvc5_ziKmdzt--o3hLUPcdp1pnaH_LVfltfNMb_z5RZ37NwQyceY1pgeL_Z64vT6_kpf6gdgpJ-tPpSSlYaXDF_IlO1LP4bpW373-Zk09nxLE3Y3q5VQAvHRXtM9ki_5V_AT0%26param2%3Dunknown%26param3%3Dch.40.xp._.18-01.us.dis_ts._._%26hsimp%3Dyhs-fh_lsonsw%26hspart%3Davg%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=1mdt0c1co&hspart=avg&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw

[don_budge]

The Key to Power in the Service Motion...

The key to power in the service motion is the servers ability to make that loop behind them and to make it as deeply as they can…while coming out of that loop building up as much speed as they possibly can. Apparently that means applying external and internal rotation in that order. Interesting…and the article does a fantastic job in explaining just that.