Your Strokes: Kyle LaCroix Forehand

[don_budge]

Thanks don_budge.
Glad my forehand and John's hard work gained your interest. Like all living things, it is a work in progress. I love it more so than I did but I know its not the end of the journey.
I'm sure if and when John gets a chance and if he can remember he may add some basic details from his end. Ultimately, it works much better than it did and John was the sole reason for that. All those things he told me I tell to my students constantly. Good thing they do what I say and not as I do. Glad to say that has changed. Walk the walk and talk the talk.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Thanks Kyle and I wish you the best of luck with your forehand in the future, with Tomas tomorrow night and anything else I can wish for you. My Man! God Bless you.

"Walk the walk...talk the talk."

[bottle]

But the Lord in this case just thinks you ought to play tennis and golf and doesn't want you to Thank Him for every sunk putt. How do I know? I asked Him. "I love religion," He said, "but I hate religiosity and I'm not sure about The Moody Blues either, especially their video depiction of sentimentalized kids and Bebby Jesus peering in from the wings with both looking down on the sentimentalized earth. I see this all as retreat from the worthy provocation of Stewart Brand and Andrea Herbert and the pale blue dot on the cover of The Whole Earth Catalog which-- man!-- I really dug. It doesn't matter what the sport. I hate to see a dude crossing himself in the end zone. He already scored a touchdown. So he wants my blessing and five red hotels on the Monopoly board too? What is he? If you ask me, he's a spoiled, grasping brat."

[klacr]

Thanks don_budge.
Glad my forehand and John's hard work gained your interest. Like all living things, it is a work in progress. I love it more so than I did but I know its not the end of the journey.
I'm sure if and when John gets a chance and if he can remember he may add some basic details from his end. Ultimately, it works much better than it did and John was the sole reason for that. All those things he told me I tell to my students constantly. Good thing they do what I say and not as I do. Glad to say that has changed. Walk the walk and talk the talk.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

don_budge

If a picture is worth a thousand words, video of my swing to me was worth ten million words. It was an eye-opener would be an understatement.

The start of my forward swing put a limit on my ability to accelerate the racket upward towards the ball.

I hit with a straight arm at contact but the beginning of my swing was with an extreme bent elbow. I was having trouble straightening it out earlier to better maximize my potential in speed and spin. It gave me a very small margin for error which I knew but could never increase that margin until I recognized the issue. I simplified my backswing, having it more on edge and less backwards facing. A very compact backswing is what we went with and that showed some promise. I did not lose any spin, speed, control with this new swing.

John also worked on my posture. I had a tendency to tilt which was a bad habit I fell into from teaching for hours on court. I felt immediately comfortable doing that. I noticed Caroline Wozniacki had the same issues with her groundstrokes, but for very different reasons.

The single biggest factor and one that made me have the "a-ha" moment was the outride backswing. I thought I was doing it before but it was not as exaggerated as what John had me do. I really needed to exaggerate it for John to hammer home his point.

Working with John was a pleasure. He was patient, observant, a true expert. His demeanor as a coach made me want to make the change and do well for him. Which I think I did. John brought up the point that it was an incremental change and that forehand would continue to evolve and it has. My understandings of the key technical checkpoints are memorized...for all my students. But as my students were getting better my own game started to suffer and I lost a lot of those checkpoints. I got them back and became more conscious of my swing. I still tinker with it here and there but more so on the aesthetics and not on the key elements.

As for the "feeling", I don't know how to describe it as it is not something I think about, I just can do it to a high rate of performance. Set up, swing, repeat. That's how it is for all my strokes. I just swing my racquet around and the ball goes fast. I can break it down for my students but for me, it just happens and the ball does exactly what I want.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Excellent Kyle. I became very curious about the process of your thinking and the details of what exactly John saw and how he remedied it. I reread the article in "Your Strokes" a couple of times and found myself wanting to know more. But from what I gleaned from the article and what you are saying is that you more or less tweaked the backswing.

I am amused at the conversation between you and Stotty about teaching and playing. It just doesn't work. Not serious playing. This is the point of my inquiry too...now that I am free of any teaching commitments I am having a lot of fun working out on the tennis court and thinking about my own technique. I have been working with the idea of tipping the racquet head forwards in the backswing and now I am contemplating the "dog pat" motion.

As you know I spend a lot of time thinking about golf swings and I am in the middle of a project to resurrect my golf game. Now I am in the position to help myself with my golf by relating some parts of the motion to the tennis swing and this "dog pat" motion is something that I must do to get my right hand more engaged in my golf swing. It's a very interesting experience with me as I go back and forth between the two games and fiddle with the ideas as they relate to my right and left hands. I play tennis left handed but swing the golf club right handed so there is some stuff that gets lost in the translation. It is fascinating how I am forced to switch gears between my left and right sides and try to interpret the meanings back and forth.

Yes it is truly a joy to go to the tennis court now and think of nothing but playing. Working out for myself. Working on my own game. Being selfish. But at the same time helping my hitting partners out with some good advice. My only real problem is that I contracted tendinitis in my left shoulder which made it impossible to do anything over the shoulder. But I have been to the rehabilitation therapist and I am working with a rubber band to strengthen the injury.

Don't worry everybody...I won't bore you with never ending posts of my trials and tribulations. I find that I know exactly where I want to go with my strokes and it is just a matter of work...contemplation...and more work. Tennis and golf are truly God's gift to Mankind in terms of recreation. Tennis is an exercise in the finite while golf is an exercise in the infinite. All tennis courts look pretty much the same from the airplane view while no two golf courses in the world are exactly alike. Even if they were...you would never play the same golf course the same way even if you played it a million times.

I would really like to hear from John more about the process of deciphering and diagnosing the Kyle LaCroix forehand but I am thankful for the article. I spent a lot of time analysing the KL forehand too. I remember it clearly. I am now applying those thoughts to my own swing. It's a fascinating thing and I thank the Lord now for the time I have to play around with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3iVmOIBtlw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3iVmOIBtlw

[bottle]

Perceptive. And if I can offer thanks for something simple, I will. It is your re-focusing of attention, Kyle, on the important articles by Doug Eng here on abbreviated, classic and staggered rhythms on serve. The differences he Eng sees are fabulously specific and useful. It is the sort of stuff which usually goes not thought about.

I've read or heard discussions about abbreviated vs. classic but not with staggered worked into the equation. The three articles certainly give a player who likes to experiment more options to play with. I can imagine somebody trying these options without fully knowing the traditionally associated advantages and drawbacks of each-- until he read or re-read the articles.

(There are three articles and three basic rhythms with the three rhythms discussed evenly throughout.)

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/jackkramer/jackkramer_sa.html?JKServeFront.mov

[klacr]

I know what you mean. Coaching for many years erodes your own game if you're not careful. Years of cradling 4 or 5 balls in my hand close to my body ruined the taught left arm stretch on my forehand. I can get it back but I have to consciously think about it for a while.

Coaching isn't actually any good for ones own game.

Exactly!
Good for the soul, but not for your game.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

My understandings of the key technical checkpoints are memorized...for all my students. But as my students were getting better my own game started to suffer and I lost a lot of those checkpoints. I got them back and became more conscious of my swing. I still tinker with it here and there but more so on the aesthetics and not on the key elements.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

I know what you mean. Coaching for many years erodes your own game if you're not careful. Years of cradling 4 or 5 balls in my hand close to my body ruined the taught left arm stretch on my forehand. I can get it back but I have to consciously think about it for a while.

Coaching isn't actually any good for ones own game.

[klacr]

don_budge

If a picture is worth a thousand words, video of my swing to me was worth ten million words. It was an eye-opener would be an understatement.

The start of my forward swing put a limit on my ability to accelerate the racket upward towards the ball.

I hit with a straight arm at contact but the beginning of my swing was with an extreme bent elbow. I was having trouble straightening it out earlier to better maximize my potential in speed and spin. It gave me a very small margin for error which I knew but could never increase that margin until I recognized the issue. I simplified my backswing, having it more on edge and less backwards facing. A very compact backswing is what we went with and that showed some promise. I did not lose any spin, speed, control with this new swing.

John also worked on my posture. I had a tendency to tilt which was a bad habit I fell into from teaching for hours on court. I felt immediately comfortable doing that. I noticed Caroline Wozniacki had the same issues with her groundstrokes, but for very different reasons.

The single biggest factor and one that made me have the "a-ha" moment was the outride backswing. I thought I was doing it before but it was not as exaggerated as what John had me do. I really needed to exaggerate it for John to hammer home his point.

Working with John was a pleasure. He was patient, observant, a true expert. His demeanor as a coach made me want to make the change and do well for him. Which I think I did. John brought up the point that it was an incremental change and that forehand would continue to evolve and it has. My understandings of the key technical checkpoints are memorized...for all my students. But as my students were getting better my own game started to suffer and I lost a lot of those checkpoints. I got them back and became more conscious of my swing. I still tinker with it here and there but more so on the aesthetics and not on the key elements.

As for the "feeling", I don't know how to describe it as it is not something I think about, I just can do it to a high rate of performance. Set up, swing, repeat. That's how it is for all my strokes. I just swing my racquet around and the ball goes fast. I can break it down for my students but for me, it just happens and the ball does exactly what I want.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

don_budge,

Thanks for asking. My forehand was fixed by John Yandell. It feels better than ever. To be honest, there was not much time of a process in between. I showed John my old forehand. He took video. He suggested one or two key points. I tried them. Liked the result. I'm sure my forehand has morphed again through the time that the article was published but if it did, it was only for the better. I am now much more aware of what I'm doing, but not in a handicapping, overly conscious sort of way. Seeing my old forehand on video scared me to death. I had no idea how it got that way and John's analysis and the discussion that followed on this thread was like my intervention before rehab.

John will likely be visiting South Florida again next month and perhaps can take a look at it again for an update. He has a lot of amazing stuff ahead for you guys so stay tuned. Tennisplayer.net keeps getting better.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Thanks Kyle. I am interested in specific details. More of what the article expressed. What were the fixes exactly Kyle? What did it feel like? If you have a moment I would like to hear as detailed analysis from you as possible. I would also like to hear more from John if he could add any more to the article. I read the article...and it is intriguing. But I want to hear more...if that is possible. What was the thing in the backswing? Please be very, very specific.

My reasons are selfish. Now I have time before golf season to think a bit about my own swing. We discussed your forehand at length which was a most healthy endeavour to explore our own thoughts about the breakdown of the shot. But everyone sees the same thing but from a different point of view. This is what made THAT process so unique.

Furthermore this article contains some real gems and nuggets but somehow I think there is still something left on the table. Humour me. Think. Thanks big time...Big Guy.

[klacr]

don_budge,

Thanks for asking. My forehand was fixed by John Yandell. It feels better than ever. To be honest, there was not much time of a process in between. I showed John my old forehand. He took video. He suggested one or two key points. I tried them. Liked the result. I'm sure my forehand has morphed again through the time that the article was published but if it did, it was only for the better. I am now much more aware of what I'm doing, but not in a handicapping, overly conscious sort of way. Seeing my old forehand on video scared me to death. I had no idea how it got that way and John's analysis and the discussion that followed on this thread was like my intervention before rehab.

John will likely be visiting South Florida again next month and perhaps can take a look at it again for an update. He has a lot of amazing stuff ahead for you guys so stay tuned. Tennisplayer.net keeps getting better.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

I am interesting in reopening this discussion. Kyle...can you give us a nice synopsis about the before and after. The process in between. I am really curious about a number of things. This was a great project on the forum and then having John follow up with his analysis makes it even more interesting. Looking forwards to hearing from you with some video support hopefully.

[klacr]

Thanks for the kind words Alex. Glad you like my forehand. I'm getting more and more comfortable with it each day. The video John and I took and me reviewing it on this site and on a video file on my computer helps a lot for the visual of what needs to be accomplished. I then create those motions and movements in person. In fact, I started doing it in the middle of the supermarket on Saturday. I got a few strange looks but I didn't care because I'm sure I had a better forehand then my fellow shoppers.

I highly suggest you practice the key position points that John highlights on this site and repeat, repeat, repeat. Nothing wrong with the Berdych forehand if you want it absolutely identical, but only if your Berdych. watch his key positions as they match up with all the other top players. That's what you replicate. I've learned the hard way that trying to copy the pros motion detail by intricate detail can be dangerous and takes you way off the path that you belong on. You have to let your own natural style and strengths come through. All my strokes are more than competent and have some great key elements but they are mine and mine alone.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johnyandell]

The front page is an animation so no. Maybe we'll make a frame by frame version--good idea.

Here is Kei:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2779

I wouldn't say his grip is a key to power--in fact the more underneath the harder to flatten the ball out.

One more thing that I think is important. It's good to have a compact , right side backswing. But there is room for variation there. But players I see who get obsessed with that sometimes ignore critical more fundamental elements like the full shoulder turn and the extension of the forward swing. That's stressed in those two article links from my series.

[alexbourne]

Agassi

Thank you Kyle and John for elucidating. So trying to get away from what Gordon describes as type 2 fh, I went over board trying to emulate Berdich.
John the computarized fh you have when we open the site,is there a way to stop it as to watch it frame by frame? Funny enough I checked your Agassi videos last night and thought he must be my model for serve and fh and probably bh(havent watched yet).
What a great fh you have Kyle! and also the passion to improve is awesome!
John, what about Nishikori? Have you studied his fh? He seems to get as much power as the big guys. Is it great timing and great kinetic change use? I wonder if his racquet points to the back as Djokovic? Isnt this also a product of grip?
Thank you both!

[johnyandell]

Alex,

In a word yes. You don't need that excess motion. Kyle didn't and his forehand is tour level fast... And Federer for example doesn't have it. He is the model--most of my guys in the video are close to that. Agassi was very similar.

Here is one more awesome Tplayer article from Rick Macci that lays it out:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_performance/rick_macci/develop_atp_forehand_2/