Question for the tennis, basketball, golf and baseball guru don_budge!

[klacr]

Consistency, Tempo, Rhythm, Flow.
The best ability is availability.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

It's always one more thing..."one point in time and space".


The concept of "It". The one place in time and space where everything is perfect.

One more thing..."it"

So there is always one more thing. After the student has mastered his "figure eights" and developed a gravity based and frictionless swing and the wrist is behaving itself...the whole thing is dependent on one more thing. Putting the ball in the path of the traveling racquet head. This can be very disruptive to the whole process.

There is basically one point in time and space where it all collides simultaneously, and perfectly...where the grip, the motion and all of the generated energy meet the ball. Any deviation from this one point in time and space will produce less than "perfect" shots as energy and potential energy will be wasted or erratic.

I call this point "it". Musicians get it...the whole craft depends upon it. Golfers get it. Tennis players get it. Great oraters get it. Anybody who successfully and repeatedly is accomplished in anything in any walk of life gets it. It's too bad more people don't get it...have you ever known anybody who just doesn't get it. But...it is not so easy as that when you are trying to deliver the ball to that one point in time and space in order to put the ball right where the ball should be, and when the ball should be there. When and where...time and space.

As tennis players, this in the end, is the object of our craft also...we seek to find that one point in time and space where everything is perfect. This relates to our serves, our groundstrokes, to those of us hitting the ball in the air still it relates to our volleys. It relates to every single type of shot under the sun. The quest as it were, is to get the grip right, get the feet, body and racquet into position, and then move all the responsible parts to get the racquet head to meet the ball the way we intend it to when we attempt any particular shot. The ultimate challenge for a human being is to have that kind of control over ones self to master such an endeavor. This is why golf and tennis are God's gift to humanity in terms of at recreation...possibly even more significant than that. There are physics, in a "perfect" world and there are the metaphysics in the real world as we know it. Rod Cross is great but he has left a huge variable out of the equation while focusing on some others. But don't get me wrong, he is fine in a certain sphere of influence, I think.

Perhaps a new thread...and a couple of more videos from Coach Don on the toss...in order to assist the student to find "it". Excellent job, Coach...btw.

[don_budge]

The Three Rules for Injury Free Serving...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion

don_budge - You're expertise in a wide variety of sports would help here - especially the fact you know baseball well.

“Serve Smart Guidelines” and “Hitting Reps.”

NOTHING IN TENNIS.

I am basically right now listening to what Major League (MLB) baseball coaches are telling me, as no one in tennis has spent the millions of dollars to research this area out like baseball.

Thoughts?

I'd love to hear ideas from 10splayer, klacr, John, Geoff, Bottle, Don, tennis_chiro and others on this important topic.

I think that your concern for preventative thinking regarding injuries is a multi faceted philosophy. While thinking of reducing the risk of injury, at the same time you can eliminate faulty movement from the swing. The perfect service motion is attainable by all with the proper foundation. It's a process and it isn't one that occurs miraculously. What normally occurs is that the student is left to his own devices and comes up with something "homemade". Such was the case with gzhpcu. The thoughtful fellow residing in luxury in Switzerland.

I offered the following "fix" to Phil's maladies in his motion. Some food for thought. There is some interesting comparisons to be made between the service motion and the golf swing. One of the huge factors in both swings is the idea of tempo. Your discussion revolving around Kyle's serve is an interesting one and the revelation that your daughter is using something of a "Roscoe Tanner" motion is interesting as well. I wouldn't recommend it myself...although in the end most anything can work nowadays. Nobody seems to be motoring to the net. Nobody seems to be in any hurry to hit the ball in the air...but if they were I would think carefully about how I would design a motion engineered to go forwards. Instead of retreating. But anyways...it's all just food for thought. Phil-osophizing...if you will.

All we need to do is change the frustrating...to fascinating...Part 2

And this was the follow up...I think I am still talking about physics here.

All we need to do is change the frustrating...to fascinating

I believe that the keys to your service issues can be found in frame #1, frame #2 and frame #3. This setup position in frame #1 will certainly get you off to a poor start in your swing and if you start the swing poorly what are the chances of you finishing it well? In frame #2 you can see how quickly you have jerked your racquet back into position and since you were so quick you have prematurely quit swinging backwards...you have not completed your backswing. The problem is now in full view in frame #3 as here you are waiting in this position instead of arriving at the point where the roller coaster car (your racquet's head) has reached the top of the mountain and is ready to fall behind your back at free fall speed...to initiate the loop in your swing behind you. It’s impossible to arrive at the “pro drop” properly unless you allow your racquet to fall, without hurrying things. It looks like you have tied yourself up and are preparing a rather wild and hurried swing, which is more like a hit than a swing at this point, at the ball...btw, where is the ball?

In frames #4 and beyond...you demonstrate that you have practiced a lot or have been playing a long time because you are making quite a nice swing at the ball and appear to be in pretty good control and in balance. The key word here is “appear” because the problem will magnify itself when you are nervous, when it is windy, when the sun is in your eyes or any other little thing that distracts you. You probably do not have a great deal of versatility in your serve because all of your concentration is focused on getting the service in play. Even some pretty Swiss lady who happens to be watching you play may get you just a little too excited to hold your rhythm. If I know that some pretty woman is watching me serve, I slow my backswing even more...give her the full show, you see. My serve tends to get even better under pressure...because of the slower backswing.

But if you turn over the controls of your service to gravity in terms of the speed and the track of your backswing...you can hold the rhythm under any conditions...even when the nerves are in play, like for instance, when you are serving out the set. Ever notice how difficult that tends to become? Trying to get the horse in the barn...you have got to take your time and have an enormous amount of patience and control. You cannot trust your emotions, your wrist or anything for that matter, the only thing that you can truly trust is the knowledge and the confidence that nothing can go wrong...because you have a perfect swing and beautiful rhythm, because your mechanics are based solely on the law of gravity. If you miss the first serve you can swing even harder with more spin at the second because you know...what are the chances of missing two in a row? Practically zero. Some days second serves can turn into a real adventure can't they? And why? It's because of the doubts...that faulty rhythm and mechanics can produce.

I watched The Masters golf tournament this weekend...I think I enjoy watching golf more on TV than tennis, I don’t know why I tend to find tennis boring to watch...maybe it is the lack of style nowadays. Perhaps it's the beautiful rhythm of the swings that holds my attention...they mesmerize me. But one thing about the golfers...every single one of them is virtually identical in their backswings. Why is that? That is because the ball is teed up or lying still and they have the time to make the perfect backswing. You can see that none of them are in any particular hurry to finish their backswing because they are gathering all of the resources of power and control that they possess to use the force of gravity together with the motion of their arms and body to control the club head. They get themselves into perfect position at the top of their swing and without hurrying things they allow gravity to initiate their downwards motion to deliver such a sweet and crisp contact at the bottom of their swing on the ball.

Since we are serving...it is the only time in tennis that we have total control of the ball, we can tee it up with our toss, maybe we should learn a bit from the golfers and take our time in the backswing so that we can get ourselves (mind, body and soul) under control to make the most powerful, efficient, controlled yet effortless swing that we can. Sort of like Richard Gonzales...but within our limitations, Phil. Just like the golfer we are trying to gather everything in our power to make the ultimate contact with the racquet head on and through the ball...but instead of the swing climaxing at the bottom of the swing as a golfer does, the serve is climaxing at the top of our swing. Isn't that rather interesting?

I can see that you have plenty of ability and that you are in really good condition...in three or four hours I believe I could get all of your resources together, in harmony with the universe, to make a gravity based swing at the ball. Depending upon your flexibility...to change.

And to make a long story short...incorporate Don's figure 8´s. I remember doing those exercises religiously before practicing my serve back in the old days.

A description of the Pancho Gonzales serve…

The Gonzales service is a natural action that epitomizes grace, power, control and placement. The top players sigh when they see the smooth, easy action. There is no trace of a hitch and no unnecessary movements. I have never seen a serve so beautifully executed. The toss is no higher than it has to be and it is timed so that he is fully stretched when he hits it. The backswing is continuous and the motion of the backswing blends into the hit and continues into the follow-through without a pause..

Like you...I am a huge admirer of the Gonzales serve...and he obviously knew his "metaphysics".

Perhaps the singular most impressive aspect of the Richard Gonzalez service motion is the aspect of tempo. From the description the author attributes "grace, power, control and placement" to the motion. You no doubt have read my axiom about power and control many times. The question being..."What is Power?". The answer is..."a combination of speed, spin and placement". A slow methodical tempo offers the method from which each of the elements of control can be maximized. A quicker tempo like klacr's or Roscoe Tanners may somehow cast the illusion of power...as in speed...the fact is that serving is more than power. It is "pitching" to a receiver and this is much more sublime than merely trying to overpower your opponent. You must take into consideration things like which delivery or motion offers the most in terms of variety of spin and even deception.

Thoughts? I thought you would never ask.

[hockeyscout]

The Three Rules for Injury Free Serving...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion

This is honestly one of my favorite posts of all time. I had a lot of fun trying to express this idea. The Gravitational Pull on the Racquet Head. It's a car on a RollerCoaster ride that stays on track.

Love Rollercoaster...The Ohio Players 1975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBkVV9xxCHE

Ironically...I wrote this for gzhcpu. I am on his "ignore" list. Pity. Life goes on.

Excellent post - thanks for sharing - I like Pancho's serve a lot.

[hockeyscout]

Thanks for the kind words hockeyscout. I appreciate it. You wrote about my rotator cuff in a thread about the serve when I posted my strokes. Although my physical gifts are admirable, my greatest and most fortunate one is my lack of getting injured. I've been very lucky in that regard.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

The fighter George St. Pierre's main trainer called me about sending an athlete I trained to Canada. The guy was blown away with my guys foot work, and put him into the projectable category and practicly guaranteed me that my guy would be signed by UFC in six months. The foot work was developed through a lot of good training (just as George's trainer developed his athletes training with a lot of great work on the gymnastic front - George is not a big man, so that works well at his size).

The footwork, balance - its all possible to make an athlete a 10-10 in this area even if they do not have a propensity for speed if you can get them relaxed. But, without a great shoulder, forget it. For my MMA fighter, we took him a long way, but, but, he does not have that magic rotator cuff, proportions and wrist grip strength. That will result in a lot of joint issues, buckling, you name it as he is generating a lot of force from other areas of his body which the shoulders, wrists and elbows cannot handle. To get to where he got to is a major accomplishment in itself, and if he stays out of trouble he will be a good earner as a career coach.

It takes durability for day in, month in and year out competition against the best of the best.

In tennis - maybe you could possibly develop a top tier athlete without klacr's shoulder - but, I am not sure. The Russian's learned a properly developed shoulder would generate speed over short distances, so, you could take a tennis player without much speed and teach them how to not cancel themselves out after they hit and you'd be on the path to something good in the serve and volley department.

Durability is a real important asset - you can't be improving if your not a relaxed athlete or on the injury reserve.

The reason for your durability klacr is simple - you have that magical rotator cuff, you come in and serve and volley which takes pressure off that shoulder and you were a swimmer (which means you fully understand how to relax properly, not buckle your nuerology, elongate properly and fire the small muscles and underlying nueroligical stimulus properly).

I never want my MMA, tennis or hockey players to be taught how to swim, as it creates a few land issues that are hard to fix. But, what I do, is take my athletes into the pool, put them in all types of MMA folds and force them to battle it out for six seconds using there small muscle groups. Its taxing on the body, and hard to get injured.

The big heavyweight fighter I had was so unrelaxed in water, and he'd panick all the time. Heavy man, who always would muscle out of everything which is crazy - its not what great athletes do. I had to teach him to snake his way out of things and uses muscles he did not want to use that would make him a better athlete. Never quit able to get to where I needed to go in that area with him because he was a typical big man who spent a career powering through everything using the wrong activations. But, we got enough done to get to where we needed to go. He'd get out of the pool and be dead, and not even be able to raise his hands or walk on two feet he'd be so tired. His footwork that looked nice, wasn't as projectable or durable as I would have liked. My ten year old, she gets it. A big girl, but, she is learning to generate power and send the proper messages to the brain very quickly. I like teaching young athletes to fight, wrestle and play around in that water because it teaches you relaxed power.

I also have a big seven foot foam pit in the basement, and I throw the kids and they move round and round. Makes them very tired, its fun, doesn't break down the body and its teaching them the right type of power.

[don_budge]

The Three Rules for Injury Free Serving...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion...Perfect Motion

This is honestly one of my favorite posts of all time. I had a lot of fun trying to express this idea. The Gravitational Pull on the Racquet Head. It's a car on a RollerCoaster ride that stays on track.

Love Rollercoaster...The Ohio Players 1975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBkVV9xxCHE

The Roller Coaster of Love...Part 1

Then I wrote this in April for Phil's "frustrating" thread...I deleted this one as well. Stupid me, I didn't realize that this was somehow related to Rod Cross's physics lesson on...what is it he is talking about anyways? I remember talking to my college roommate and doubles partner and backcourt mate on the basketball court, many years ago, 1076 I believe it was...he was a Chemical Engineering major, I said to him..."you know Jim, a tennis match is really one big physics problem and equation, I wonder if you could take an entire tennis match and express it as an equation in terms of force, vectors, with specific quantification." He looked up at me from his studies and said, "That's an interesting thought." I never did follow up on my thought. He went on studying and I went out to practice.


Roller Coaster of Love...remember that tune?


Phil...I have been studying your video over the last couple of weeks and gleaned everything I can from it. The one view has its limitations and the still sequence of your serve adds some insight as well. The only sure way to do this thing is in person...care to fly over to Sweden for a couple of lessons. Just kidding.


The service motion is a bit complex and it involves quite a bit of motion from all of the different parts of the body...so we try to simplify things by creating a model we can relate it to in simple terms. The model that I use is the “berg och dallbana” which translates literally into English from Swedish as the “mountain and valley course”...but it means “roller coaster”. A roller coaster is an amusement park ride that is perfectly designed using the law of gravity. The design is so perfect that the ride feels that it is wildly out of control and traveling at incredible speed...but is so amazingly in control that the owners of such rides are betting everything they have that the ride will not spin out of control and kill a bunch of innocent people on a Saturday afternoon. This is the safe and secure principle we shall attempt to modify your backswing to in order to get you going forward into the “hit” with perfect and effortless energy. We are going to be using gravity as our main source of energy...to create a perfect, yet simple motion...a roller coaster of a serve.


Here’s the thing, Phil...about the set up and backswing. This is a real challenge without having you in front of me to study for a while. To set you up to begin your motion I would like you to create a line directly at your target with the toes of your two feet which are approximately shoulder width apart. Imagine this line going forwards towards your target and all the way back of you to the fence. This line will serve as our “track” for the backswing. I would like to see you bent slightly at the waist so that your arm can “swing” from your shoulder without your body getting in the way. Finally, I would like you to line your racquet up to your target as well, on the same line as the line that your feet created. Point your racquet at the target and hold it about waist high supported by your left hand. Weight distributed from between 60/40 to 70/30 from the front foot to the back. Great...now we have you lined up, and taking aim.

Here we go...hold on to your hat! One thing that we must clarify before we go into any kind of explanation about the motion is the pressure of your grip. Sam Snead referred to the grip on his golf club as holding it with only so much pressure as you would hold a live bird. We only hold on with our hand tight enough to not let go of the racquet. We maintain only enough pressure in the entire arm, forearm and wrist to swing the arm and racquet back into position in one piece without disturbing the exact position that it is in at the setup position. We must eliminate all sources of tension and resistance when we are attempting to use pure gravity to dictate our motion. From this relaxed and confident position at setup we need only to release the racquet with our left hand that is supporting it, and allow the weight of the racquet head to merely fall upon the line of the track all the way back to the fence until it reaches a position at the top of the hill. From the starting position, the roller coaster car begins its decent down the first hill until it reaches the bottom where it will begin its assent slowly up the second hill all the way to the top. Remember the track is along the line that we created with our feet towards our target and it extends all the way back. Keep the racquet on this track. By allowing gravity to dictate the direction and speed of our backswing we will create the position back in our swing where the laws of gravity make the most sense and the least number of things can go wrong. In fact nothing can go wrong...just like the roller coaster. By dropping the racquet head and allowing the weight of it to travel smoothly in front of you and only using the energy of your weight transferring to the back foot by slowly turning your shoulders and allowing your arm to freely swing back into position, we create a position where the racquet will naturally drop behind us at free fall speed into what you are referring to the “pro drop” position.

Now this is where things get a bit interesting...and exciting. Thinking about this point of the motion where the racquet makes a loop starting at free fall speed, behind our backs and how it relates to a roller coaster, we can imagine where the cars of the ride go into a loop and the riders are actually upside down on the track with only gravity to keep them glued to the track. This is where the riders of the roller coaster are screaming at the top of their lungs and their faces are contorted with the g-force that is plastering the tissue of their faces to their skulls. It’s in the loop, baby! This is where the drive of the legs, the turning back of the shoulders and the thrusting or throwing motion of the racquet combine to exponentially create an incredible amount of speed with very little effort. You can imagine that the line a piece of pencil would draw if it was attached to the tip of the racquet...this is your track for the roller coaster of your serve.

The backswing is where I observe the source of your issues. It looks to me that if we can get you into position you can make the move forward if you can maintain a loose grip on the racquet and the relaxation in your arm to create a whip like sensation. (insert post #32 at this point for the action of the wrist)


Just one more thing...it looks to me in frame #3 you have tossed the ball right out of the picture and in frame #4 it is returning to earth. I think your toss is a bit high...which would lead us to the next lesson, how and where to toss the ball.


A description of the Pancho Gonzales serve…

The Gonzales service is a natural action that epitomizes grace, power, control and placement. The top players sigh when they see the smooth, easy action. There is no trace of a hitch and no unnecessary movements. I have never seen a serve so beautifully executed. The toss is no higher than it has to be and it is timed so that he is fully stretched when he hits it. The backswing is continuous and the motion of the backswing blends into the hit and continues into the follow-through without a pause..

Like you...I am a huge admirer of the Gonzales serve...and he obviously knew his "metaphysics".

Ironically...I wrote this for gzhcpu. I am on his "ignore" list. Pity. Life goes on.

[klacr]

Thanks for the kind words hockeyscout. I appreciate it. You wrote about my rotator cuff in a thread about the serve when I posted my strokes. Although my physical gifts are admirable, my greatest and most fortunate one is my lack of getting injured. I've been very lucky in that regard.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

The wrist for golf, hockey, MMA, tennis ... its huge. Agreed. Roger, tremendous wrist, smart hands.

Movement and speed can be taught.

A magical rotator cuff and a grip of steel wrist ... it can't be taught.

Some people like klacr, my daughter, from what you have said on the site - you, and me have this inherant trait. Grip and wrist strength

The MMA fighter I had reached a peak. He got to MMA champion of Russia (its watered down now), but, I do not see him having success on the North American side of the site game as he does not have natural grip strength, or a durable rotator cuff (in my opinion).

I did everything I could maximize this guys hand strength, grip and make him more mobile in the shoulder area - for instance you put towels on weights to make the grip bigger, you practice a lot of hanging from ropes, take a wet stick and fight over it with one hand, hand speed excercises in water, my isokonetic training machine, tetherball, bouncing balls and I even invented new machines (I will show these in the armageddon thread). He just didn't have Boris Becker's powerful wrist, or Sampras' double joints or Roger's combination of all the above. No matter what tricks of the trade I did I just could not get it to the level I needed to because he did not have a smart wrist, solid rotator cuff or a real propensity for developing power.

But, the rest, it can all be developed.

I will say this - there are very few tennis players with klacr's rotator cuff. His feet are huge, but, he'd be exactly the type of project I would have loved to work with because you can't teach hand strength and a gifted rotator cuff. I remember writing that once in a thread here.

[don_budge]

Injury Free Serving...the efficient transfer of energy through the conduit of the wrists

It will be interesting to read your attachments.

With all of the attention than you are paying to laying the foundation in training of the hips, the gait, the feet etc. ...the ultimate goal is the transfer of energy of the sum of the forces through the wrist into the "throwing stick" to make contact with the ball. It's a swing...which has similarities to a throwing motion but not entirely. Here is how I interpret the role of the wrist in tennis or wrists when it comes to golf. Absence of tension through the throwing arm or swinging arm is absolutely a key. Any tension inhibits full transfer of potential energy that the body parts are producing. The wrist is a hinge.

I wrote the post below in March of 2011...

Pronation and Use of the Wrist When Serving...

I wrote this in March in response to "erbr" and deleted it after posting it for some time...not nearly as sophisticated as Rod Cross, but I understand the math. Normally I operate on the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle with my students and myself as well.

The Wrist is a Hinge

Am I the only person who considers pronation as a natural biomechanical occurrence?-erbr

Knowledgable tennis players and golfers all over the world agree with you. When teaching the serve I sometimes make a bit of an oblique reference to the serve being similar to an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it up on the ground, we attempt to tee it up in the air. To begin with some of the similarities are the take away, the backswing, the transition between backswing to forward motion and the "release" of the wrist(s) which deliver the racquet or club to the ball...it even helps to "waggle" the racquet a bit in the preserve routine. The action of the wrist(s) is perhaps the most fundamentally important aspect of swinging a tennis racquet or a golf club (Ben Hogan certainly agrees with you)...or to swing anything else for that matter. This goes for all shots...long or short, fast or slow...not just the serve. It is also perhaps the most difficult aspect of swinging to convince a tennis or golf student of...it is a matter of swinging, not hitting. Getting too "wristy" even with short putts is the kiss of death, but that being said...you still must swing the putter.

I describe the function of the wrist as that of the hinge on a door. One never has to consciously think about applying the wrist in the swing of the racquet or the club, but you must let it do what it most naturally wants to do...and that is to swing smoothly with all of the centrifugal energy that the mind/head (the idea behind the shot intended to play), the feet and legs, the hips and body, the shoulders and finally the arm have created. The action of the wrist is a product of all of this and it's job is to transfer all of that action into the face of the racquet. It's really such a simple thing...ha ha. But it's best not to talk too much about it...or to think too much about it either, for that matter. Better to concentrate on footwork and getting into position and just letting "the thing" happen.

Once the wrist(s) take over...delivering the payload feels a bit like "slamming the door".

Everyone always talks about the thumb being such an important digit for homo sapiens. But the wrist for tennis players...and for golfers, is the joint that makes it all possible.

[hockeyscout]

I did - it was interesting.

[klacr]

I wish your daughter luck. Look forward to seeing her serve one of these days.
Interesting you mention serving styles. Take a look at the American Serving Style Thread and article I posted.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

klacr, my 10 years olds motion is close to your's and Roscoe's - except the grip is a Boris Becker eastern. Totally opposite of what is taught in the USA. I think she will be an okay player in 10-15 years with her motion, and I can't see it changing much.

I dont care for these high ball tosses, dramatic knee bend, jumping thirty feet in the air, exagerated trophy positions, attention to grips and all of this American style stuff.

The motions of Gonzalez, Budge, Tanner and Becker - perfect (in my opinion). No need for all these bells and whistles.

Everyone talks about the great service motions of todays players - and, I don't see it.

20 to 30 years ago pro's were hitting the ball much, much, much better (and cleaner) on the serve with some very bad equipment I might add.

We forget maybe the best server of all-time, Federer turned pro 18 years ago!

Guys could rock the ball back when Roger turned pro like Sampras, Goran, Medvedev, Roddick, Becker - ect, but no one could place the ball like Roger on a line, or do it effortlessly at 70%.

Roger's 70% is everyone else's 90%, and I am not kidding, thats how good I think he is.

The game is losing Roger's impeccable timing and rhythm, and we're seeing players putting a hell of a lot of effort into getting secondary type results that don't reflect real quality.

I once trained an Olympic soocer player back in Canada for three months in the winter, and he came to camp with his pro team bigger, stronger, faster and killing everyone in the drills. The two of us played on the same semi-pro senior mens indoor team, and we would practice every night from 10 pm to 2 am. I thought he looked great, and I believed a world class job was done in preparing him for a big season.

But, one big issue - he had all these tools now in his bag and guess what, he was a worse player when he returned to the big fields, and the real pro game. In fact, he was awful. He told me, "Fuck, I am so fast I arrive a quarter of a second to early, and my timing is shit, and I am the worst player on the field."

That sure taught me a valuable lesson about how to train athletes!

[klacr]

hockeyscout,

yes, I've been told my serve is Tanner-esque but I never consciously copied a motion per se, I just tossed the ball up and hit it.

As for my speeds, I've never sought out a speed gun or tried to measure it. Last year I was in Switzerland and met with Phil (gzhpcu), he attached a sensor to my racquet and it gave me this read out Kyle serve Sui 2015 PDF.pdf (sorry for configuration) . Make of this what you will.

I've always been told my serve was good and I knew it had some heat on it as well as some spin but was always more concerned with hitting my spots and a high first serve percentage, although I'm just as comfortable winning with my 2nd serve. To each their own.

I would not recommend anyone copying my serve or style. Its just something that happened. For others that try it, not sure how effective and comfortable it will be for them.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

Sorry, I just saw it was USPTA.

Kyle, what is your serve timed at in KM and MPH just out of curiousity.

You serve like Roscoe Tanner, yes?

[klacr]

Kyle, you work for the USTA.

What ball counts limits (example, serves) are allowed in tournament play, academies and national training sessions?

In the USA now when a baseball pitcher attends a tournament, he's under set control limits or the coaches are in big time trouble (lose sanctioning, insurance, coaching licenses, ect).

I see a lot of tennis tournament schedules, and for me I worry about kids playing two or three matches a day.

I got a 10 year old girl who is 5'11, so, probably my circumstances are are real unique as we need to back off quite a bit due to the fact you have a young body trying to move in woman's frame.

But, if she was 5'4 tall and a midget, I would still be concerned with the ball count especially at this stage of the game.

What are your ball count specs? What are you trying to hold you athlete down to?

don_budge would be real helpful here as he understands baseball pitching - and how a numbers count system could relate well over to tennis.

We have a program we are using now, but, the extra input would be real interesting to see if we are on the right track.

hockeyscout,

I do not work for the USTA. But for future's sake, never say never as there are some unique opportunities and collaborations that may come to fruition down the road, but thats for another thread, post or article.

You bring up an interesting question about limits and how much is too much. There is no specific number or amount, but when it comes to tournaments and matches, below is a chart.

RECOVERY RULE

After all singles matches in Junior, Adult, Senior, NTRP and Wheelchair Divisions in which the match format is two out of three standard tiebreak sets or more, the Referee shall offer a rest of two hours before the player’s next singles match. This rule does not apply to short set matches, matches that play a tiebreak in lieu of a final third set, nor to any match played indoors where the duration of the match is less than 120 minutes.

For any other format (including matches played with a 10-Point Match Tiebreak in lieu of a third set), the rest is at least 30 minutes. Scheduling:

• All players should be given at least 12 hours of rest between the completion of their last match of any day and the start of play of their first match of the following day;
• In the 12s and 14s divisions, no match should start nor should a suspended match resume after 8 p.m.; and
• In the 16s and 18s divisions no match should start nor should a suspended match resume after 10 p.m. NOTE: The USTA Southern Section has adopted the following: Singles matches consisting of at least two full sets (short scoring) count for Southern ranking and standing. In lieu of a third set, a match tie-break may be played to determine the winner of the match. In doubles, regular scoring, short scoring and 8 game pro sets will also count for ranking and standing purposes.

I hope this helps.
don_budge makes a great post above as well.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton