Interactive Forum November 2018: Stefano Tsitsispas Forehand

[don_budge]

Here is a perfect shot of the Tsitsipas backhand. Can you copy? Over.

https://www.facebook.com/gustafelias/?eid=ARBWkWQ3ZODUAyCndz_mgdWLhU_5W9pbAa2bDJNxxyoHR7lyHzs1NLqmrbeMYgAjqNjm7fEU3PnrzHsC&timeline_context_item_type=intro_card_work&timeline_context_item_source=100001869106568&fref=tag

[don_budge]

If the racquet head is applied to the ball fundamentally correctly.

.

If the racquet head is applied to the path of the ball...fundamentally correctly.

[don_budge]

Isn't closure at the bottom of the flip simply a function of grip?

Look here...Roger Federer in "Forehand Not Gone":

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...one/index.html

It's in the footwork stupid.

Speaking of stupid. I was in the stable cleaning the four boxes of Chaquira, Lekiliza, Shaklana and Lorelei and I was fretting about the post above that I had written. Did I neglect to mention the grip? The grip seems to be much milder than the modern mandate...ala Djokovic, Kyrgios, Sock et al. Want to know what grip I use on the "rake shovel" device I use to move the horse poop? I didn't think so.

My best student here in Sweden is Gustav. I diverge just a little here to sort of give myself a left handed pat on the back. What a fine young man this kid has grown to be. He didn't choose to pursue the road of the professional tennis player yet his game is beautiful. Beautiful save for the minor glitch in the backswing of his service motion...or is it the forward swing? Or is it in between? But anyways at some point in his development as a tennis player I gave him the book "The Razor's Edge" by Somerset Maugham to read and if you didn't know any better you might think Gustav is a modern day "Larry".

Somehow he managed to get himself appointed the official photographer of the "Stockholm Open" and he found himself rubbing elbows and taking pictures of all of the old Swedish legends including his eminence himself...Bjorn Borg. I cannot possibly express how proud I am of this kid...this "Larry". Taking the path less chosen and shining in it's wake. But he managed a shot of the Stefanos Tsitsipas backhand from just the angle that I requested before he embarked on his mission. He caught a backhand shot where Stefanos is absolutely driving a backhand with mucho gusto about shoulder high. Given the nature of the power of the iPhone...I could zoom in on the grip that more or less explains everything. Where the tire meets the road so to speak. I wish that I could share this photo with you guys...hockeyscout is absolutely correct in the power of the still shot.

But I should like to talk to Gustav soon and see if among his thousands of shots he caught a beauty of the Tsitsipas forehand. But it is the grip of course...in combination with the footwork and the use of the lower body as Ben Hogan used to preach. Stefanos reminds me of one of those artistic clay courters from yesteryear. With their open stances and milder grips...sometimes "shovelling" the ball back in play to challenge the opponent to finish them off.

There is much to talk about in the Stefanos Tsitsipas forehand...but it must be done in conjunction with the backhand. So I restate my last sentence...it is in the grip, the footwork and the use of the lower body stupid.

[don_budge]

All this talk about racquet face...the rest of it. Not one mention about the footwork. Perhaps a couple of nods regarding movement. Stefanos Tsitsipas is a bit of an anomaly in the modern game of tennis...starting with that beautiful one handed backhand. This is another case in point where it would help to bring the backhand into play in order to discuss the forehand. Tactical objectives.

Look here...Roger Federer in "Forehand Not Gone":

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

Stefanos Tsitsipas could almost be set to music too. He is just a bit more gangly than the Swiss Maestro and rightfully so as he is so much taller. But still the kid is like a gazelle out there. There is fluidity. So much fluid motion. Even in the backswings...it is as if the racquet head is somehow attached to his sternum. When he turns the racquet is turning. Poetry in motion. Except for the service motion which lacks the fluidity of the rest of his game. Hopefully he is a work of art in process.

Forget about all the fancy stuff...keep the results squarely in your sights. It doesn't matter about the edge of the racquet...the angle in the backswing. It's different...get over it. You see tennis is a game of artistic interpretation. At least it used to be. All roads lead to Rome. If the racquet head is applied to the ball fundamentally correctly.

But the points that are brought up are interesting when you consider the footwork compared to that of our Swiss Maestro. You see...Roger is going to line it all up with three lines and when he isn't able to create last line (footwork) he is going to fake it. Create it with the "illusion" of the third line. Stefanos hits everything on the forehand with an open stance. Normally open stance is an indication of pronounced overspin but the beautiful thing about the Tsitsipas forehand is the flat and penetrating nature of the shot. In order to compensate for the open stance and falling into the trap of exaggerated overspin this young man hits his forehand with a whollop or any number of ways. He can generate tremendous spin. He can produce beautiful defensive shots on the full run. His lob off of the forehand side is second to none as far as I can tell. So many times he claws back into points with the correct shot at the correct time. Much like Roger Federer...another similarity.

But you must consider the backhand too when looking at the forehand side. Tsitsipas is not limited to penetration off the forehand side, he can also hurt you with the backhand. It's a balancing act. The modern game paradigm mandates the tremendous blow off of the forehand and settles for less on the backhand. Milos Raonic comes to mind. But in the case of this young man he has broadened his horizons with the option he creates with a flatter and more penetrating stroke. He plays beautiful defence as well.

It's in the footwork stupid.

[arturohernandez]

I like the comparisons between Federer and Delpo on ST's forehand. But at the contact area, which is really the only important as far as results go, he is a duplicate of Delpo with the huge extension and reach, and the body rotation to speed the rackethead thru the contact zone down the ball path.

There appears to be tension instead of relaxation and release of the racket head through the zone. And THAT is what will cause wrist injuries, similar to what has happened to Delpo so often. Tsitsispas will get away with it for a long time since he is so young, but it will catch up with him in time. I predict a wrist injury in him within five years. You can see that Delpo has changed up his backhand to go for more slices to avoid this injury on the two hander. And he is releasing his forehand WAY better at this stage to keep from getting injured. Federer has never had a ground stroke injury just because of this relaxation and release of the racket on contact off of both sides. AND he just doesn't apply that much force on the stroke. Quickness is different than force. Both result in ball speed. But force = mass x acceleration while kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared. So quickness = ballspeed and less effort.

I agree that it looks a bit stiff to me. Tomaz Mencinger does advocate maintaining the contact zone longer like Halep and less like other players.

Tsitsispas does this but he seems stiff rather than loose.

It is almost like a lesson in beginner forehand and how to keep from shanking and miss hitting by staying in the contact zone and angle as long as possible.

Not sure about the wrist injuries as these might have been caused by the two handed backhand.

I have yet to hear of a one hander that has wrist problems regardless of the forehand.

[jimbok]

Full disclosure, I generally observe all the " Good Stuff" first, then try to constructively critique other aspects of his forehand. Conclusion: I simply echo John Yandell's comment, Wow! Wow! Wow!

[bman]

Isn't closure at the bottom of the flip simply a function of grip?

[jschaff]

I like the comparisons between Federer and Delpo on ST's forehand. But at the contact area, which is really the only important as far as results go, he is a duplicate of Delpo with the huge extension and reach, and the body rotation to speed the rackethead thru the contact zone down the ball path.

There appears to be tension instead of relaxation and release of the racket head through the zone. And THAT is what will cause wrist injuries, similar to what has happened to Delpo so often. Tsitsispas will get away with it for a long time since he is so young, but it will catch up with him in time. I predict a wrist injury in him within five years. You can see that Delpo has changed up his backhand to go for more slices to avoid this injury on the two hander. And he is releasing his forehand WAY better at this stage to keep from getting injured. Federer has never had a ground stroke injury just because of this relaxation and release of the racket on contact off of both sides. AND he just doesn't apply that much force on the stroke. Quickness is different than force. Both result in ball speed. But force = mass x acceleration while kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared. So quickness = ballspeed and less effort.

[bottle]

A beautiful ATP forehand with wonderful extension. A few observations:
1) Traditional ATP forehand with elbow going back level in backswing, not the modern which elevates the elbow in the backswing.
2) Keeps the racquet face more on edge in the "flip" as opposed to Federer who has the strings facing the ground. Looks more like Del Potro's.
3) Brings the racquet head more behind his body in the "flip" than Federer, who keeps the racquet head more on the hitting side of the body.

Tomaz Mencinger teaches more edge on as described here simply because he believes it easier for somebody who doesn't hit tennis balls all day than the more virtuoso full closing of Federer.

But I especially like the JY idea that top players are likely not even to know what a flip is.

My amusement however often has to be separated from what I wish to try on a tennis court.

Stillness of elbow throughout the backswing if backswing as here is going to start with racket going up will be less comfortable for me than maintaining that stillness (stationary but twisting) only through the part where racket tip goes up. Elbow then can fall with everything else. The racket after flip will end up slightly more closed.

Will have to try that. On the other hand, at a certain age, amusement no doubt should predominate. I find it in the three videos of Don Budge forehands contained in the stroke archive. In two of them racket rises first to the outside, but in one of them racket rises second as it draws to the inside as in his famous backhand. "Completely different!"

(I think I can steal-- hopefully-- a verbal pattern from the odious president if I want.) Wow, a sentence fragment. Completely different backswing!

[johnyandell]

Good questions. But I think it's the opposite on the few Tisitsipas forehands we have. Roger in general is more closed if you look at a lot of examples in the stroke archives. It's just as you say more situational, relatively speaking. I will try to count some Stefano spins later. But one thing I doubt is that any of these guys are thinking flip more or less--or that they even know what a flip is or that the face closes down more or less.

[stotty]

Guys the amount of closure on the racket face is often a function of contact height.

Compare Roger here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nt1_500fps.mp4

To Here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortNeutralStanceSide7_250fps.mp4

I think we get the situational aspect of how much that racket closes, it's just that Tsitsispas seems way more closed on the mid to lower height balls than Roger. Now how does that affect matters in terms of the amount of flipping that's going on and access to spin?

[abc0045]

During the take-back the racquet face is more open for Tsitsispas than Roger even on low-mid range balls, but elbow remains at level instead of lifting up like Kyrgios, allows for quicker acceleration into the pull essentially giving a similar result. Delpo has bigger lever (with straight arm) as he's much taller allowing for more power

[stroke]

Tough questions to answer unless a person truly understands the complexity of biomechanics. I suspect Tsitsispas and Del Potro have less access to topspin than Roger has, but am not qualified to answer that with any certainty. Tsitsispas does hit fairly flat, and hard and Del Potro hit's with jaw-dropping power at times. Del Potro is stronger than Roger and Tsitsispas put together, however, which goes some way to explaining the power he gets.

I am always interested in the speed/spin elements of these world class forehands also. It is hard to get access to those quantitative measurements. Occasionally, a network such as the TennisChannel of TennisTV will supply the rpm's on the forehands, the mph's info is way more common. I still remember last year at the conclusion of a Sock Dimitrov match, the network did supply such info on their forehands at the end of match, and I was very surprised. Of course, I suspected the Sock fh and more rpm's than Dimitrov's, but final numbers were surprising to me. The average Sock fh had 1000 more rpm's and 10 mph's more over the average Dimitrov fh. I suspect that Tsitsipas' numbers are very close to Dimitrov as their form looks very similar.

[johnyandell]

Guys the amount of closure on the racket face is often a function of contact height.

Compare Roger here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nt1_500fps.mp4

To Here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortNeutralStanceSide7_250fps.mp4

[abc0045]

orientation of handle of the racquet or the racquet face doesn't matter in the flip; its the shoulder forearm/elbow positioning which determines quality of the stroke and that is compact and excellent. Anyways, after flip (during forward pull) orientation of racquet face is almost identical to that of Federer's or Delpo's