Tiafoe Forehand

[arturohernandez]

I have no doubt coaches have showed Tiafoe videos of himself hitting forehands and serves, but maybe he just feels comfortable with his game and, more importantly, believes in it. We don't know the answer to that because no one on the forum has an inside seat regarding his coaching set up...unless John or Klacr know something.

don_budge makes an excellent point below. Making good judgement calls is often what separates coaches. If someone had changed Borg's forehand and backhand he probably wouldn't have been as good as he turned out to be.

Glad to see conversation here! I agree that sometimes what is success for a person is not success for someone else. To even be ranked in the top 50 is a huge success. As an athlete and a player he does what others would dream of doing. The funny thing is that he has made it so high. And yet to make it that much higher requires more than he can do. Maybe even ever possibly do given his limitations.

The forehand is great against Grigor who is a very good player but not the best. And yet against Nadal or any of the top 10 he would have a very difficult time. Tennis is so tough. It's a miracle anyone makes it that high given all the little things that have to fall in just the right place and at the right time.

[don_budge]

db, great post on Tiafoe. He is good to go as you say. His play vs Dimitrov was something. His forehand was the biggest shot on the court even though his form is certainly not nearly as pretty as Grigor's. And somewhere, you nailed it when you called Fed the "epitome of class".

He is all of that. I wouldn't burden him with the title of "Idol" but he is a man who is deserving of an enormous amount of respect in my estimation. I watch him closely, as you know, and he keeps his cards so close to his chest the entire time he is on the tennis court. During interviews he has a very charming way of sort of cutting loose and I think that is sort of a release for him...after keeping it all inside for the duration of the match.

But the handshake just said it all. He fought tremendously hard...as did his opponent. At the end it was just over and he came to the net with all of the dignity in the world and did what such a man would do. By looking at him you would never know if he had lost or won.

I had never heard of the "Hawaiian Forehand" and I like it. Some 37 degrees west of western. Great comment. I watched that match with Dimitrov, at least a good part of the end. Dimitrov was impressive in his own right which makes Tiafoe's win real legitimate. Dimitrov was digging deep to stay in the match and nearly pulled it off. At least to evening the match. But Tiafoe kept applying the pressure. He kept on maintaining the pressure. They were really see-sawing back and forth. But it was the fitness and tenacity of Tiafoe in the end. So what wins tennis matches? Tenacity and fitness or elegant strokes? It sort of depends upon a lot of things...you might call them intangibles. I think you have actually called them that. I know I have.

My preference is for elegance matched with cerebral tactics forming an unbeatable combination of brains and brawn. But I can appreciate the physical fitness aspect of the sport. It is the one dimensional aspect of it that I find so annoying. The lack of thoughtfulness. The lack of genius. That is why Roger Federer has always been "The Living Proof" of my teaching paradigm. But you already knew that.

The acid test is the ability to exhibit different forms of power...power being control. Control being the combination of the elements of control which are speed, spin and placement. Federer has the ability to go from with any combination which makes him the most versatile. Whereas a Frances Tiafoe is going to go mostly with speed. Although, surprisingly, Tiafoe does show some ability to play the net and more importantly to get there. Here is where a good coach might work with this young man...instead of dismantling his strokes to work on his tactical ACUMEN.

The funny thing about that "Hawaiian Grip" is that I think one of the most things a coach is faced with these days is that strong gripped forehand. That grip really limits some of the options in the midcourt and you rarely see a natural volleyer that has to change the grip so radically in order to volley. But I have witnessed forehands...perfectly good forehands...ruined by trying to weaken that grip. My best friend, my best doubles partner had this happen to him. He loved Björn Borg when he took up the game and used what was then a very strong grip and he liked to hit open stance. My very own coach tried to change him and the result was my buddy never regained the confidence in his forehand he once had. On the other hand he became a very good volleyer and managed to blend his forehand with the rest of the concept. But Frances is another story. That is one radical grip. Changing it might just make a mess of the whole thing.

At the end there was the young man defeating one of the greatest champions in sports that we have witnessed in a long, long time. He is riveting solely based on his merit as a tennis player. Solely on how he depicts what a tennis player should be. For me he has been a source of inspiration. Something to write about as I learned to write about the beautiful sport of tennis. I have to admit that without him I would be hard pressed for anything to say. But with him in the game and when he is present and accounted for in ANY given tournament there is always something of interest. Something to compare between eras...between players. Between great champions. He didn't let me down in this tournament either. Once again he carried it...even after he lost. One thing that I must point out is what he did after he lost. He came to the net, shook the hand of his young opponent and congratulated him and wished him luck. At least that is what I am assuming he did. He is what you call the epitome of class. You will find his picture in the dictionary under the word...class. Grace under pressure. He is a beautiful performer. A gift from above. I know you are thankful as I am.

But at the end of the day I don't feel you can go wrong with Roger Federer as the modern model for teaching tennis. The argument can certainly be made for the two-handed backhand but the interesting thing about that choice is how dreadfully boring it is likely to become in the end.

[gzhpcu]

You can say the same for Nadal’s forehand. It seems to work for Tiafoe so whychange it. Also being different makes it more difficult to play against. We do not want clones playing against. Each other.

[stroke]

db, great post on Tiafoe. He is good to go as you say. His play vs Dimitrov was something. His forehand was the biggest shot on the court even though his form is certainly not nearly as pretty as Grigor's. And somewhere, you nailed it when you called Fed the "epitome of class".

[stotty]

I get that. But I am sure someone could convince him with video that he is not in the realm of normal.

Borg grew up when there was a lot less information than today. His game was unorthodox but he still attacked the net and volleyed.

Then again he dropped out of tennis as McEnroe showed up.

He might have known something others did not.

In any case, there is A LOT of information out there today. It would be pretty easy to show Tiafoe what is wrong with his stroke and give him examples of other top pros who made their strokes better.

Of course the easiest explanation is that he is no very malleable and that is why he is stuck with the game he has.

I have no doubt coaches have showed Tiafoe videos of himself hitting forehands and serves, but maybe he just feels comfortable with his game and, more importantly, believes in it. We don't know the answer to that because no one on the forum has an inside seat regarding his coaching set up...unless John or Klacr know something.

don_budge makes an excellent point below. Making good judgement calls is often what separates coaches. If someone had changed Borg's forehand and backhand he probably wouldn't have been as good as he turned out to be.

As a coach you have to know when and why to attempt a change and you must also know when to leave well enough alone. Against all conventional wisdom even.

[don_budge]

I would say his grip is way more extreme than Nadal, who to me is a semi, not western grip. Tiafoe looks to me to have an extreme almost Berasategui like Hawaiian grip on his forehand. even more extreme than Sock.

I would be interested in your definition of “coachable”. I think I would agree with your definition, but we all have witnessed some gifted players who succeeded in spite of themselves. I would like to hear perspectives on the differences between the coach/player relationship of world class juniors versus the coach/age 20+ pros relationship.

I'm watching Tiafoe against Grigor Dimitrov. Grigor manage to win the third set tie-break. Tiafoe is very unorthodox and a very difficult player to play against. He defies convention, the definition of unorthodox, and as a player it is very difficult to comprehend how the ball can come back with what he is putting on it. When looking across the net the forehand and serve are just plain unique so the opponent is frozen for a split second wondering just what was it that they just saw and the ball has so much pace on it...they are caught looking. Even the backhand is a little strange when you put it in the same bag with the odd forehand and serve.

He is unbelievably quick and again the opponent might be a little deceived how he trudges around the court in between points then he runs everything down when the ball is in play. He's a tough opponent to play and getting more difficult. On top of it all he seems to be using some theatrics to get into the heads of his opponents which further distracts them from the business at hand. Gamesmanship.

With the courts doctored and engineered to play like velcro it is really tough to get that ball to lay down and if it sits up a bit...good night. But that is an accurate assessment tactically to try and exploit the unorthodox nature of his stroke. Speed up the courts and downsize the racquets to bring the game back in line as it was originally intended to be played...or rather how it evolved until the engineering took over. Tennis metaphoring the world.

The question of coachable with regards to Frances Tiafoe. The Hawaiian forehand grip. That is a new one on me. That means western some 2,500 miles west of California. Now that is one extreme western forehand grip. Too extreme? Maybe not the way the game is played on gritty surfaces that grab the ball that way that they do. What to do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Tiafoe

Let's try to see this from Frances' eyes. His parents on immigrants from some God forsaken place that was in the midst of a civil war. Dad moves to the States and he gets a job at a tennis centre where he is provided living quarters for his twin infant sons and himself. Rather humble beginnings. Young Frances takes up the game at his Dad's work site and lo and behold by the time he is twenty-one years old he has made it to the quarters of a Grand Slam at the Australian Open. Is he coachable?

If you read my comments and if you have followed the Tiafoe alert that John gave us with his serve being the stroke of the month you come to realize this tennis player defies conventional wisdom. Yet at the very same time he has enjoyed an inordinate amount of success. Is he coachable?

I'm thinking that the success outweighs any "improvements" that are going to dramatically alter any of his swings. Here is a guy for all intents and purposes has had his life interrupted or intervened to the tune of some millions of dollars when it may have looked initially to be another sad, hard-luck story. Frances has eaten his way up the food chain with a tenacity that most of us only dream about. Apparently he was a legend at a very young age for his work ethic and my guess is that hunger is unabated. He will try to devour anything in his path and he has the advantage that he has nothing to lose. Ever. He has exceeded all expectations and not only survived...he has made himself a global name in the tennis world. He is one of the most successful young up and coming tennis players in the world...not to mention the United States.

The game is unorthodox and somehow it is hard to imagine somebody actually coaching him in his technique or style of play. He looks to be a self made player but on the other hand he actually has had all kinds of coaching throughout his development. The point is he is actually making a big payday with his technique so why change? Just at the Australian Open he defeated Kevin Anderson, Andreas Seppi and Grigor Dimitrov. Soemthing tells me he is on a correct path if not the correct path. Why change? Why be "coachable"?

His body language is unbelievably stiff and wooden. He walks as if he literally has a pole up his behind. His gait is sort of a trudge as he goes about his business on the court but once that ball is in play he is explosively quick and the effort is on the far end of the scale.

As I wrote in my post.."Tiafoe is very unorthodox and a very difficult player to play against. He defies convention, the definition of unorthodox, and as a player it is very difficult to comprehend how the ball can come back with what he is putting on it. When looking across the net the forehand and serve are just plain unique so the opponent is frozen for a split second wondering just what was it that they just saw and the ball has so much pace on it...they are caught looking. Even the backhand is a little strange when you put it in the same bag with the odd forehand and serve."

The point is it works for him. Why let some coach who may or may not know what they are doing or messing around with get involved to get him in the correct technique when any monkeying around might go in the wrong direction. It has been known to happen. You might just as well leave it all alone until he gets to the point that he really wants to change. But that may be a day then never comes to fruition. This kid likes the way that he plays. He thrives in being unique and different. He would just as soon stick it to the whole world and do it his way than change anything about his technique or style. On the other hand if you are his coach and you tell him to X number of minutes interval training at the very end of a tough session he will doing it with a smile on his face. This is his bread and butter. He will out work you any day of the week and once he gets his teeth into you in any given match...good luck. He isn't going to let go.

Even in his match he got three more games from Rafael Nadal than Stefanos Tsitsipas did in the next round. He got one more game from Rafael Nadal than Rafael Nadal got from Novak Djokovic in the final of the Australian Open. Taking all things into consideration what exactly what would you change at this point in this young man's career. I think that it is a bit late considering him from a distance. He seems to be a bit rigid in not only his body language but in the difficult background where he has learned one of life's really tough lessons...don't let the other guy outwork you. He has found great success to this point in doing just that. I would be very careful in what I monkeyed around with here. You don't want to do too much with this player that runs the risk of ruining the natural and almost primal approach to the game. He's a handful with his style. It throws off the opponent as it is.

As a coach you have to know when and why to attempt a change and you must also know when to leave well enough alone. Against all conventional wisdom even.

[doctorhl]

Thanks guys. Both are valid points.

[arturohernandez]

Some players are aren't easy to coach because they find it hard to change parts of their strokes that become established. Some players are far more malleable than others when it come to moulding strokes, others are just wired a certain way and are incredibly resistant to change.

Some players have done remarkably well off their own back. Borg was apparently very stubborn and resistant to change, reportedly refusing to change his strong eastern grip on his forehand, which was considered unorthodox back then. The rest is history of course as he went on to have the best forehand the game had seen up until that point in time. Sometimes the player knows best!

I get that. But I am sure someone could convince him with video that he is not in the realm of normal.

Borg grew up when there was a lot less information than today. His game was unorthodox but he still attacked the net and volleyed.

Then again he dropped out of tennis as McEnroe showed up.

He might have known something others did not.

In any case, there is A LOT of information out there today. It would be pretty easy to show Tiafoe what is wrong with his stroke and give him examples of other top pros who made their strokes better.

Of course the easiest explanation is that he is no very malleable and that is why he is stuck with the game he has.

[stotty]

I would be interested in your definition of “coachable”. I think I would agree with your definition, but we all have witnessed some gifted players who succeeded in spite of themselves. I would like to hear perspectives on the differences between the coach/player relationship of world class juniors versus the coach/age 20+ pros relationship.

Some players are aren't easy to coach because they find it hard to change parts of their strokes that become established. Some players are far more malleable than others when it come to moulding strokes, others are just wired a certain way and are incredibly resistant to change.

Some players have done remarkably well off their own back. Borg was apparently very stubborn and resistant to change, reportedly refusing to change his strong eastern grip on his forehand, which was considered unorthodox back then. The rest is history of course as he went on to have the best forehand the game had seen up until that point in time. Sometimes the player knows best!

[doctorhl]

I would be interested in your definition of “coachable”. I think I would agree with your definition, but we all have witnessed some gifted players who succeeded in spite of themselves. I would like to hear perspectives on the differences between the coach/player relationship of world class juniors versus the coach/age 20+ pros relationship.

[stotty]

I just wonder how coachable Tiafoe is? I get the impression he's difficult to teach for some reason. I think he might remain quite raw.

Quite a lot of players have grips that far round. Sock and Gulbis were two I saw a few years ago at Wimbledon, plus handful off Eastern Europeans whose names are unspellable and unpronounceable. I really don't how they do it. When I try hitting with that grip the ball goes straight into the ground.

I saw Tiafoe when he played junior Wimbledon. He was a joke technically but hit the ball like a train. He had a really odd serve, too, at the time. I never thought he would make it or be any good yet here he is, and playing pretty well too.

[arturohernandez]

I do not think Stephanos will end up playing Novak in this tournament. I do not think he can beat Nadal at this time, but we will see. You are correct, Nadal and Novak have made subtle changes in their game, but I think a major overhall for the Tiafoe fh is not realistic.

Again, the importance of having someone create fluid strokes at an early age. Without a major overhaul to his FH, Tiafoe is stuck. Maybe he is that gifted athletically but I think he will continue to struggle against players that attack his forehand.

[stroke]

Tsitispas has his work cut out for him. It will be very interesting to see him play Novak, assuming that things turn out as we expect.

Back to Tiafoe, I am being too optimistic. Or I never played tennis for millions of dollars and won tournaments. But it seems that Nadal and Djokovic spent major time shoring up their weaknesses. They did not just sit around and accept being unable to do something.

They both can volley and slice. They worked a lot on their serves. Fed changed his racket.

Could Tiafoe change his forehand?

I know Tatjana Maria changed to a full one handed backhand but she is not at the very top so maybe not the same pressure.

Has any top pro retooled a stroke successfully?

I do not think Stephanos will end up playing Novak in this tournament. I do not think he can beat Nadal at this time, but we will see. You are correct, Nadal and Novak have made subtle changes in their game, but I think a major overhall for the Tiafoe fh is not realistic.

[arturohernandez]

Tiafoe is what he is. He could make a run at Major sometime. Obviously, he is not going to picking up the baton from someone. Tsitsipas does appear to be the heir. We are all on board there. He had a great match vs Fed. Nadal and Novak both bring other problems. Tsitsipas obviously has a Fed type game of the 3. It will be very interesting to see how he deals with Nadal and Novak. Medevev looked great until he faded bad vs Novak. He has a Novak type game. Tsitsipas does not have a Raonic serve, so he is going to have to beat them the hard way, grinding out a lot of service games.

Tsitispas has his work cut out for him. It will be very interesting to see him play Novak, assuming that things turn out as we expect.

Back to Tiafoe, I am being too optimistic. Or I never played tennis for millions of dollars and won tournaments. But it seems that Nadal and Djokovic spent major time shoring up their weaknesses. They did not just sit around and accept being unable to do something.

They both can volley and slice. They worked a lot on their serves. Fed changed his racket.

Could Tiafoe change his forehand?

I know Tatjana Maria changed to a full one handed backhand but she is not at the very top so maybe not the same pressure.

Has any top pro retooled a stroke successfully?

[stroke]

Tiafoe is what he is. He could make a run at Major sometime. Obviously, he is not going to picking up the baton from someone. Tsitsipas does appear to be the heir. We are all on board there. He had a great match vs Fed. Nadal and Novak both bring other problems. Tsitsipas obviously has a Fed type game of the 3. It will be very interesting to see how he deals with Nadal and Novak. Medevev looked great until he faded bad vs Novak. He has a Novak type game. Tsitsipas does not have a Raonic serve, so he is going to have to beat them the hard way, grinding out a lot of service games.