Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

[don_budge]

I guess everyone's seen this already, but you never know...It's my favourite.

Great video...I have seen it many times and I will watch it at least this once more. Arthur sort of comes across as a grumpy old man.

[don_budge]

The Bad One was my all time favourite as well. I grew up with him is that is not an oxymoron. I saw him the first time he tried to qualify for the U. S. Open playing an infamous match against a guy named Zan Guerry. McEnroe actually wrote about the match in his book..."You cannot be Serious". He lost it and he was walking out in the parking lot bitching and kicking gravel. My buddies and I were standing by our car and I said to him..."you got robbed Kid". He looked at me and sort of mumbled..."thanks".

I wrote a couple of threads as I was experimenting with his strokes. Johnny...Johnny. The flesh is weak...only the soul is immortal.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/2297-my-thoughts-on-the-mcenroe-forehand

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/2311-my-thoughts-on-the-mcenroe-backhand

[glacierguy]

I guess everyone's seen this already, but you never know...It's my favourite.

[don_budge]

Beautiful video, thanks Stotty. Never get tired of watching my boyhood hero. Great shots from above showing how far into the court he tossed the ball.

He is also maximising his height on the ball as well. So you are effectively maximising two variables...height and distance in the court. He's at full stretch. The optimal strike will vary with spin somewhat. But tossing that ball in the right spot is half the battle and also will induce a better motion. Keep at it!

[glacierguy]

Beautiful video, thanks Stotty. Never get tired of watching my boyhood hero. Great shots from above showing how far into the court he tossed the ball.

[stotty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_odRZD-edU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYs0LJgcvOM

[don_budge]

What grip is McEnroe using in this clip and do slightly different grips affect anything in the backswing rhythm?

The racquet head is an extension of the hand. To this everything will be effected in the duration of the stroke. John McEnroe most likely has a somewhat continental grip that somewhat may explain his open racquet face compared to Federer's in the backswing. Interesting question? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I've watched that video carefully and can see very clearly the "dip", which is wholly absent from my motion. I'm going to try what you suggest and will be interested to see if it helps to increase my range of motion and importantly slow down my tossing arm. I have been aware that the ball is dropping too far from peak to contact, which makes timing tricky. Tossing further into the court is also agreed - I need to challenge myself to explode properly into the ball, which is mandatory if the toss is well in front.

I'll video again next week, and hope for improvement. Might also try and take some speed readings with the Pocket Radar. Thanks for taking the time to analyse and advise.

Thanks for putting your stuff up on video. You take a chance. But the good news is the swing is coming along nicely. It just needs a little ironing to get the little wrinkles out. Probably imperceptible to most. My eyes are fastidious...they see friction in swings. Swings don't have to be perfect to be effective either. McEnroe has a very noticeable hitch in his backswing but he makes the proper counter moves to correct it in the delivery. johnyandell has some excellent insight into the McEnroe motion...I wish he would weigh in. I might just pose a question to him. He may not be following this thread.

Looking at your motion I would sort of lean towards some sort of hybrid between the Federer/McEnroe motion. There looks to be a lot of improvement since the last time you posted which reflects a lot of work no doubt. The work is never done it seems with serves and golf swings. There is always a little more efficiency to eek out. Go to work glacierguy...then post an update for us!

[doctorhl]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...stSAdSide1.mov

Frame #26 illustrates how far he is throwing the ball in the court at 50 some years of age. I imagine in his younger days when he was really moving the serve around he was even farther in the court at impact. More food for thought.

What grip is McEnroe using in this clip and do slightly different grips affect anything in the backswing rhythm?

[glacierguy]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...euceFront1.mov

But look at frame #22 and look how low he has dipped into his motion with his racquet and his toss hand. This is something I would like to see in your backswing. A bit more "dipping" of the shoulders as to give you a bit more range of motion. Loosen you up a bit. This might just slow your tossing hand a bit as it gets just a little quick which causes you to toss the ball quite high. I like to see no more than a decimetre of the ball coming downwards before the strike. This is better timing.

I've watched that video carefully and can see very clearly the "dip", which is wholly absent from my motion. I'm going to try what you suggest and will be interested to see if it helps to increase my range of motion and importantly slow down my tossing arm. I have been aware that the ball is dropping too far from peak to contact, which makes timing tricky. Tossing further into the court is also agreed - I need to challenge myself to explode properly into the ball, which is mandatory if the toss is well in front.

I'll video again next week, and hope for improvement. Might also try and take some speed readings with the Pocket Radar. Thanks for taking the time to analyse and advise.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_serve/mac_1st_serve/mac_1st_serve.html?Mac1stSAdSide1.mov

Frame #26 illustrates how far he is throwing the ball in the court at 50 some years of age. I imagine in his younger days when he was really moving the serve around he was even farther in the court at impact. More food for thought.

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...euceFront1.mov

So let's take John McEnroe for instance. First of all there is the obvious rather unconventional position of the feet. This is all McEnroe all the time. I haven't really seen another player use this position from which to serve from. Certainly another "great server" doesn't come to mind. This is totally unorthodox but is a great example how the unorthodox can work...in the hands of a genius.

But look at frame #22 and look how low he has dipped into his motion with his racquet and his toss hand. This is something I would like to see in your backswing. A bit more "dipping" of the shoulders as to give you a bit more range of motion. Loosen you up a bit. This might just slow your tossing hand a bit as it gets just a little quick which causes you to toss the ball quite high. I like to see no more than a decimetre of the ball coming downwards before the strike. This is better timing.

Observe at frame #43 John has made contact with the ball and the ball never disappeared out of the top of the view. The descent was approximately a decimetre as near as I can tell.

Now one more very interesting detail. Take a look at the initiation of the backswing. This a actually a fascinating part of the ritual that is the John McEnroe serve. The first 11 frames of this video are actually a "false start" in his backswing. The backswing does not actually initiate until frame #12. So what is he doing? He is calibrating his initiation so that his weight is perfectly balanced and able to flow. The most impressive part of the McEnroe swing is its frictionless action. Smooth as silk from a seemingly unconventional position fo the feet. Thus the aspect of genius.

But what he is doing, is synching his whole body to begin from a less than static position. It is like a "waggle" in golf. The first six frames are the false backswing and then he "bobs" the racquet head...but in reality he is not only bobbing the racquet head he is bobbing his whole body. HIs whole being. This is by definition a waggle as the term is used in golf. It is the movement that initially synchs the racquet head (or club) with the entire machine of the body to create this synergistic effect...the sum of the parts being greater than the whole.

Once John makes this false start and the racquet head once again comes to a position from where it will descend...he allows gravity to dictate the rate of speed for the backswing. The tossing hand also takes on this rate of speed as well. The whole body morphs into this tempo. Then in the upwards motion he is almost slowing down the racquet head imperceptibly as gravity is still dictating. So once his racquet head gets to the top of the hill it is ready for a most explosive action as all the part of his body are in perfect alignment to do their respective jobs.

So in this way you are spot on in emulating the John McEnroe serve. The tempo. I suggest that you slowly "bob" your racquet head just a bit a couple of times and use your entire body and being to do this. Even your mind. Most importantly your mind. Then when it is time to initiate the backswing do it with total relaxation (including the racquet hand so it will not "deliberately supinate") based on a gravitational pull downwards.

I am not certain if the deliberate supination actually will deplete power but if I were an acupuncturist and looking for a kink in your chi this little glitch would be glaring. A source of friction.

Food for thought regarding the John McEnroe serve vs. the glacierguy serve. You can incorporate McEnroe and Federer to come up with your motion. Just use the right aspects of each.

[don_budge]

Thank very much for your quick response. After I posted, I suddenly became quite nervous that I would get trashed! I totally see what you are pointing out, and confess that I am deliberately turning the racquet face. In a way, I am showing my age, because I was thinking of John McEnroe when I first started doing it - the reason being that it helps me get the feeling of opening the chest out and rotating the shoulders. Without that deliberate supination (?) of the forearm move I was struggling to rotate my shoulders. I didn't realise that it would cause a loss of power.

I agree I need to go after the ball more. My better serves are where I consciously try to hit the ball higher than I think I can hit it (if you see what I mean). And yes, I could do with more shoulder rotation, so I will work on that. I'm on court again tomorrow, and will try to incorporate your suggestions. Thanks again!

Funny...I thought of McEnroe when I saw that. When I look at a Federer or a Sampras I see that the arm, hand and racquet swing back in the same position as it is in the set up. No manipulation.

I loved McEnroe's serve before he over did it but don't see it as a good teaching model. It would be interesting to hear what johnyandell would say about my advise. He worked with McEnroe trying to get his original motion back after it went wayward over the years. Maybe a good reason not to emulate the McEnroe motion. It had a lot of moving parts in a sense. It was his...he owned it. But it got away from his too.

[glacierguy]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lRear.mp4&new=

Look at the difference between you at 2.98 in the rear view and Roger Federer at 18 clicks with the right arrow key. Roger's racquet head is still in front of him and the "W" is still visible from the rear view. In order for you to be in the position that you are you will have had to manipulated the racquet head with your hand by turning it. Roger's hand and wrist have not changed their position from his setup to this point. This is a rather serious loss of power move.

Otherwise the setup is excellent. The backswing is coming. The body is turning with the speed of the racquet drop. It appears that you are more or less letting gravity dictate the speed of the backswing which is excellent. Continue to turn the shoulders a bit more until your front shoulder is at the opposite net post or so. Throw that ball into the court just a bit more and go after it...up and over it as if it were a large beach ball.

At 2.73 in your rear view the "W" should still be visible to the camera eye but as you can see the racquet has been manipulated on to its edge.

Thanks very much for your quick response. After I posted, I suddenly became quite nervous that I would get trashed! I totally see what you are pointing out, and confess that I am deliberately turning the racquet face. In a way, I am showing my age, because I was thinking of John McEnroe when I first started doing it - the reason being that it helps me get the feeling of opening the chest out and rotating the shoulders. Without that deliberate supination (?) of the forearm move I was struggling to rotate my shoulders. I didn't realise that it would cause a loss of power.

I agree I need to go after the ball more. My better serves are where I consciously try to hit the ball higher than I think I can hit it (if you see what I mean). And yes, I could do with more shoulder rotation, so I will work on that. I'm on court again tomorrow, and will try to incorporate your suggestions. Thanks again!

[don_budge]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lRear.mp4&new=

Look at the difference between you at 2.98 in the rear view and Roger Federer at 18 clicks with the right arrow key. Roger's racquet head is still in front of him and the "W" is still visible from the rear view. In order for you to be in the position that you are you will have had to manipulated the racquet head with your hand by turning it. Roger's hand and wrist have not changed their position from his setup to this point. This is a rather serious loss of power move.

Otherwise the setup is excellent. The backswing is coming. The body is turning with the speed of the racquet drop. It appears that you are more or less letting gravity dictate the speed of the backswing which is excellent. Continue to turn the shoulders a bit more until your front shoulder is at the opposite net post or so. Throw that ball into the court just a bit more and go after it...up and over it as if it were a large beach ball.

At 2.73 in your rear view the "W" should still be visible to the camera eye but as you can see the racquet has been manipulated on to its edge.

[glacierguy]

Side view: