Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?

[J011yroger]

Apologies, I missed this post. Very rarely do you see smooth, silky serves on the WTA like you find on the ATP. Women's serves are often disjointed and have suspect leg drive. I cannot think of one woman server with a motion like Roger's, Novak's or Thiem's...to name but a few.

Lisicki

J

[stotty]

Slotty,
I assume you've seen WTA players play live in front of you as I have many times. What specifically are you suggesting regarding their serves? When I stand 5 feet off court and watch top 300 WTA players play at the US open each year, I see great serving. What do you see? My daughters friend a 27 year old UTR 13 ( male) played wta player Camila Giorgi for 2 hours of practice at Caryleeds last year and had major problem with her serve.

Women are on average 15% smaller than men and serve the ball 15% slower. That's just biology. Unless perhaps you weren't referring to pro players?

Apologies, I missed this post. Very rarely do you see smooth, silky serves on the WTA like you find on the ATP. Women's serves are often disjointed and have suspect leg drive. I cannot think of one woman server with a motion like Roger's, Novak's or Thiem's...to name but a few.

[klacr]

Sorry for the extended sabbaticals and lack of posting. COVID has me thriving, not just surviving. Life is good and busy as hell. I do visit the forum often but find I lack time to deliver an articulate and meaningful post that some of these threads deserve.
I'm intrigued by this discussion as I think the linkage in communication between many coaches and their students is the real culprit. Yes, the student handles some of the accountability, the coach handles the responsibility.
What percentages of coaches are male? The answer: The majority. When working with females, sometimes you need a different angle or approach. It's not that male coaches can't teach females, it's just that many struggle to connect. Question: What percentage of coaches are female? The answer: The minority.
The desire for strong female coaches is high, they are perfectly suited for coaching endeavors. The biggest differences between men and women is from a temperament perspective in that boys/men are more interested in things (sports, cars, games) whereas girls/women are more in tune and interested in people. As coaches, we are in the people business. Female coaches inherently have this advantage and gift to span the divide and teach both boys and girls effectively.
Have tennis coaches failed female players? The real question should be "Have we overlooked female coaches to provide a different angle to teach female players?"

I have three females on my teaching staff at my club, one of whom was top 30 WTA and won a grand slam. They are by far more skilled in the nuances of communication and student/member relations. They seem to get more out of their players than many on my male staff, not to say my male staff is poor by any means. I just find that we are missing out on more success when an industry that is people oriented is so dominated by a gender that temperamentally is not as ideally suited to the profession. I wish we had more females on this forum just to hear their take.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Delray Beach
SETS Consulting

[stotty]

I always tell parents who cannot afford umpteen lessons a week for their child: ''It's not how many lessons they have but what they take away from them that counts''. An attentive child who has a 30 minute lesson once a week can become better player than a player who has three lessons a week but has cloth ears. The general public has always been a bad judge of a good tennis coach in my opinion and I wouldn't blame a child, or parent, for trusting a tennis coach if they know little about the game.

An interesting story in this country is Ryan Peniston, currently ranked 390. He is coached by his father who puts no trust in tennis coaches whatsoever. Ryan's father was a local level tennis player with no particular playing history. He just fathomed everything out by himself all the way though to tour level. Not bad.

[don_budge]

A tennis coach does not fail a player. The responsibility must be assumed by the player. If the player is too young to accept THAT responsibility then guess where it goes? To the parent of course. Blaming the coach is another in a long list of excuses.

[Error]

Yes ... it is 110% her fault for "trusting a professional" ...

I'm not sure if you're serious with this comment, If you are I'll make a mental note not to engage with you from this point on.

[hockeyscout]

So if a young girl begins lessons with a crappy teaching pro, develops bad habits and never gets anywhere, it's her fault for trusting in a professional?

Yes ... it is 110% her fault for "trusting a professional" ...

The kids that have the old school attitudes ingrained in them will do the best in this sport - tennis has, and will always be a sport where the immigrants win, not the spoiled tennis club brats with the rich daddies/grandpa's or second/third generation money lucky sperm club papa's who have long ago forgot what made them successful.

I like Kevin O'Leary - he fly's first class - his kid flies coach, and he says pretty bluntly - "You are flat broke, and I am not."

All the money in the world will not buy you a forehand. USA had some great immigrant players - and then we had all the motivators show up with bright shiny academies. It doesn't work.

Realistically one needs to approach this game like you are a coal miner - show up, do your job and be smart/wise/SAFE/structured at it so you become DURABLE, efficient/street wise/a man of the land and put in more proper reps than the other guys.

Do you think the game the way this guy thinks it - if not, you won't be a player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln72ezTmm6Y - Moe Norman ...

So, yes - success is all in an athletes hands and if they don't make it then it is all their fault and no one else's ...

I like Moe here ...

"I make the ball talk" ...

"Get lost guys - I play now ... this is my own little playground" ...

Talent can take you a long way - I agree - but, their gets a point when you get good at 13/19 - and, now its a matter of putting in more productive work so you stay at the top. Lots of talented players play 100 games in the ATP - or any pro sports - but, the trick is to get to 800 games and not many can do that because that takes some serious progressions over a long period of time.

[Error]

Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?

No. In fact they have not. Female athletes must take responsibility for their own destiny. Just like the rest of the human beings on the planet.

So if a young girl begins lessons with a crappy teaching pro, develops bad habits and never gets anywhere, its her fault for trusting in a professional?

[Error]

Yes, it's true, female players have been let down. And yes it's true we continually resort to forehands as evidence and rarely compare their backhands or serves to that of male players. Don't get me started on serves.

Slotty,
I assume you've seen WTA players play live in front of you as I have many times. What specifically are you suggesting regarding their serves? When I stand 5 feet off court and watch top 300 WTA players play at the US open each year, I see great serving. What do you see? My daughters friend a 27 year old UTR 13 ( male) played wta player Camila Giorgi for 2 hours of practice at Caryleeds last year and had major problem with her serve.

Women are on average 15% smaller than men and serve the ball 15% slower. That's just biology. Unless perhaps you weren't referring to pro players?

[don_budge]

Greetings don_budge - this is, of course, a great point and something I preach every day. In my part of the world (at least) it seems that "train has left the station" though - and it is not necessarily gender specific.

Back at you BrianGordon. Excellent work with the ladies...too. The train has left the station and it is roaring down the tracks with the full fury of the mob behind it. Stay safe Brother in these very, very strange times. Hopefully when the dust has settled civilisation will still have a place for civilised activity such as golf and tennis. But they may not. What if they are deemed to be "white privileged" activity and therefore racist? Just a question. A rhetorical question.

Perhaps a bit "off thread" but in a sense we once again see how tennis metaphors life. Once it was certainly an activity for the privileged but now more all-inclusive. Once it was an activity that maybe favoured the men. So much "progress" has been made. Even though some of it obtuse. Equal prize money for instance. But even as it has in American society there has been much change. But the progressives are an unruly mob as it turns out. This is turning out to be bottle's wet dream.

"The Devils"...Fyodor Dostoyevsky 1871

"I have already hinted that all sorts of low-class individuals had made an appearance among us. In troubled times of uncertainty or transition all sorts of low individuals appear everywhere. I am not talking about the so-called "progressives", who are always in a greater hurry than everyone else (that is their chief concern) and whose aims, though mostly absurd, are more or less definite. No, I am speaking only of the rabble. This rabble, which you will find in any society, usually rises to the surface in every period of transition, and is not only without any aim, but also without an inkling of an idea, merely expressing with all its strength unrest and impatience.. And yet this rabble without realizing it itself, almost always finds itself under the command of the small crowd of "progressives", who act with a definite aim, and it is they who direct this scum where they like, provided they themselves are not composed of utter idiots, which, however happens, too." Fyodor Dostoyevsky…”The Devils”, Part III Chapter 1

I have the utmost respect for your work and truly appreciate your comment.

[BrianGordon]

Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?


No. In fact they have not. Female athletes must take responsibility for their own destiny. Just like the rest of the human beings on the planet.

Greetings don_budge - this is, of course, a great point and something I preach every day. In my part of the world (at least) it seems that "train has left the station" though - and it is not necessarily gender specific.

[morespin]

macaque,

I used to teach a girl with a pretty one-handed backhand. I was really hoping she would become the high school tennis player version of Justine Henin And she could hit a really nice sliding slice one-hander, too.

She ended up switching to a two-handed topspin because she just couldn't handle a heavy ball or a big serve with it.

I used to teach a high school boy who had a decent two-hander. One day he just messing around hitting one-handed topspin. It looked really good and he hit it well. He asked if he should switch. I told him if he could handle heavy balls and return serve well with that he should stick with it. Guess what happened.
He came back after a couple of high school matches and said he couldn't handle high heavy balls or return serve well enough with it. So, he too switched back to his two-hander.

I have always used a one-hander. It has always been kind of like Wawrinka's. That's kind of my signature shot. I think you kind of have to be a born one-hander or spend a tremendous amount of time developing one.

I really want to create a female player with a big one-hander, type III forehand, and a humongous kick serve. That would be awesome!

So, the simplified answer to your question is that I would start a player with a two-hander to develop the swing path and then switch to a one-hander when they're old/strong enough then work on it relentlessly until it could handle all of the possible attacks. If you have a one-hander you had better expect your opponents to mercilessly attack it.

[hockeyscout]

Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?



No. In fact they have not. Female athletes must take responsibility for their own destiny. Just like the rest of the human beings on the planet.

100% ... Moe Norman.

[don_budge]

Have Tennis Coaches Failed Female Athletes?

No. In fact they have not. Female athletes must take responsibility for their own destiny. Just like the rest of the human beings on the planet.

[macaque]

Oh my goodness!!! Thank you Brian for biomechanically confirming what I've always believed.


My kids have to get a "license" before they are allowed to play any competitive tennis. What I mean by that is that they have to have a good two-handed topspin backhand, a Type III forehand, and a topspin (ish) serve that they can get in about 50% of the time. It has been my experience that under competitive stresses the technique of these shots breaks down and devolves. Backswings get too big. Strokes become pushes. Serves become frying pan dinks.

Do you not allow your players to play with a one handed topspin backhand?