Interactive Forum September 2022: Jannik Sinner Forehand

[doctorhl]

You do not have to have a long lever to hit the ball hard. Look at Fabo and Alcaraz. Both are small guys with shorter arms than, say, Isner or Sinner. Fognini, Alcaraz, and Nadal intentionally make contact with a straight arm, with their core going at maximum angular velocity, This results in maximum racket head speed at contact. This results in maximum/optimum ball compression that results in maximum/optimum ball control. Actually these guys have a quick angular acceleration of their bodies that they stop abruptly ( see Casper Ruud and Alcaraz in slow motion from their US Open semifinal matches). This abrupt stoppage creates massive potential energy that results in maximum kinetic energy at the racket string bed. This is the biomechanical explanation for their incredible ball speed and control.

I could watch these guys for hours (and I do) looking for that one little efficiency move that gives each of them such a "mutant" ability to do what they do. You wanna see something biomechanically amazing? Watch Kyrgios' serve, or Isner's serve. Amazing stuff there. Of course being 6-10 with arms that reach to the sky, and hitting the ball from 4 ft inside the court without foot faulting can be a serious advantage too.

I swear that Alcaraz pivoted over 180 degrees on his front foot while hitting his two hander putaways, several times against Ruud.

[jschaff]

I tell all my students to point their off shoulder (left for rightys and right for leftys) at the oncoming ball. This makes the racket face go way back and usually the hitting surface aims at the back fence before it uncoils/unloads on the ball. And it takes almost no muscular force to get the intended result. It definitely works.

[jschaff]

You do not have to have a long lever to hit the ball hard. Look at Fabo and Alcaraz. Both are small guys with shorter arms than, say, Isner or Sinner. Fognini, Alcaraz, and Nadal intentionally make contact with a straight arm, with their core going at maximum angular velocity, This results in maximum racket head speed at contact. This results in maximum/optimum ball compression that results in maximum/optimum ball control. Actually these guys have a quick angular acceleration of their bodies that they stop abruptly ( see Casper Ruud and Alcaraz in slow motion from their US Open semifinal matches). This abrupt stoppage creates massive potential energy that results in maximum kinetic energy at the racket string bed. This is the biomechanical explanation for their incredible ball speed and control.

I could watch these guys for hours (and I do) looking for that one little efficiency move that gives each of them such a "mutant" ability to do what they do. You wanna see something biomechanically amazing? Watch Kyrgios' serve, or Isner's serve. Amazing stuff there. Of course being 6-10 with arms that reach to the sky, and hitting the ball from 4 ft inside the court without foot faulting can be a serious advantage too.

[johnyandell]

Yes that would be my first idea. Fully stretched around the bounce.

[arturohernandez]

JY probably has something to say on the subject, arturo.

Here's a quote from the latest issue's Your Stokes (Drew's Forehand):

"For Drew on his forehand, the first key was to improve his turn. And the key to the turn for any player is the left arm stretch.

Drew's left arm was bent and never straightened out completely. Although his shoulders were turned, they were around 90 degrees or less to the net."

Perhaps Sinner doesn't manage this when rushed? Or perhaps he just coils better, with or without a straight arm. He must have tremendous upper body flexibility, as well as strength, given what BG says about his "aggressive upper body rotation".

regards
Rob

I have tried this with my daughter. Might remind her tomorrow on the practice court. Here is her coil. My guess is that John would want it to be more than 90 degrees to the baseline. Or not. Any opinion johnyandell?

[dimbleby69]

Wow! What an analysis. The forehand looks really good. I had a question about the coiled vs. straight left arm as he coils. I notice that sometimes Sinner straightens out his off arm as he coils. Other times his arm is bent. He seems to have a bent arm quite often but with plenty of coiling.

My daughter coils with a bent arm which is similar to Sinner. I didn't see any comments on the off arm by Brian.

Anything bad about coiling with a bent arm vs. straight arm?

JY probably has something to say on the subject, arturo.

Here's a quote from the latest issue's Your Stokes (Drew's Forehand):

"For Drew on his forehand, the first key was to improve his turn. And the key to the turn for any player is the left arm stretch.

Drew's left arm was bent and never straightened out completely. Although his shoulders were turned, they were around 90 degrees or less to the net."

Perhaps Sinner doesn't manage this when rushed? Or perhaps he just coils better, with or without a straight arm. He must have tremendous upper body flexibility, as well as strength, given what BG says about his "aggressive upper body rotation".

regards
Rob

[arturohernandez]

Wow! What an analysis. The forehand looks really good. I had a question about the coiled vs. straight left arm as he coils. I notice that sometimes Sinner straightens out his off arm as he coils. Other times his arm is bent. He seems to have a bent arm quite often but with plenty of coiling.

My daughter coils with a bent arm which is similar to Sinner. I didn't see any comments on the off arm by Brian.

Anything bad about coiling with a bent arm vs. straight arm?

[stroke]

Stroke: you took away my excuse!

I copy, I am all about excuses.

[doctorhl]

I would of course defer to Brian on this, but to me Fabio is short levered(listed at 5'10", I seriously doubt he is that tall) and he has enormous effortless pop.

Stroke: you took away my excuse!

[BrianGordon]

Hi guys - long time no chat - hope all is well. Appreciate the comments and kind words as always. Some answers/observations for what they're worth:

stroke/general - You don't have to have long segments to smack the crap out of the ball - just makes it a bit easier (less effort).

doctorhi - surgically altering the tendon attachments - love it hahaha.

jeremy93 - in theory it shouldn't be that difficult aside from the pristine position to the ball that is required - in practice it very difficult. My evidence is anecdotal - I've built 1000s of forehands and relatively few high level pure straight arms. Of course, it could be I'm just a bad teacher.

seano - attempted to answer your questions below ->

1) What would have been your approach to teaching Sinner if you got ahold of him several years ago? Would you have tried to change his flip mechanics/backswing where the strings are pointing towards the back fence, in order to allow him to hit more of a straight arm forehand? Would you have tested to see how straight you could make it?

Ans: I start with the straight arm for any developmental player that walks on my court. When it is apparent that is not possible then I move on.

2) If you could teach him now, what would you be emphasizing to allow him to take advantage of his long limbs or has he maxed out his capability?

Ans: I'd tell him to keep ripping it - not worth the pain of change at this point.

3) How much variability does the type 3 forehand flip mechanics have? Does it need to look like a Federer or Nadal backswing or there's room for different racquet orientations?

Ans: There is variability shot to shot. The type 3 flip targets the shoulder - there is some variability possible in the conditions that create that.

4) Can you go into a little more detail why Sinners bent arm flip mechanics would be a disaster with a type 3 forehand?

Ans: At the beginning of the forward swing, the flexion/extension anatomical axis of the wrist must be at least 45 degrees from the horizontal - Sinner's is not - that is a problem.

5) Without fractionation, what does the lack of 2 degrees of freedom (torso & non-twisting shoulder) play in his elbow staying bent ?

Ans: Not sure I understand what you are asking. He has 2 degrees of freedom. The modest shoulder acceleration (and other attributes) is an intentional piece of his bent arm proclivity - not the cause of it.

Sean

[stroke]

“I find it interesting that long levers have the potential to create more power”.

As a short levered person, my experience is that even if I could perfectly mimick Sinner’s forehand motion, there is no way I could duplicate his power using the same amount of effort. I mention this not as an excuse for lack of talent due to body type, but just as an observation of the diifficulty of choosing models to copy. I remember when the Olympic East German shot putters were accused of surgically moving the tendon insertion points on their arms to create stronger levers.

I would of course defer to Brian on this, but to me Fabio is short levered(listed at 5'10", I seriously doubt he is that tall) and he has enormous effortless pop.

[doctorhl]

“I find it interesting that long levers have the potential to create more power”.

As a short levered person, my experience is that even if I could perfectly mimick Sinner’s forehand motion, there is no way I could duplicate his power using the same amount of effort. I mention this not as an excuse for lack of talent due to body type, but just as an observation of the diifficulty of choosing models to copy. I remember when the Olympic East German shot putters were accused of surgically moving the tendon insertion points on their arms to create stronger levers.

[jimlosaltos]

Take back looks similar. To me in real time, not that similar. Sock in full western, Sinner in semi. To me, Nick is somewhere between the 2 forehands, grip wise and technically.

Thanks. Helpful

[stroke]

Take back looks similar. To me in real time, not that similar. Sock in full western, Sinner in semi. To me, Nick is somewhere between the 2 forehands, grip wise and technically.

[jimlosaltos]

How similar to (or NOT) Jack Sock's forehand is Sinner's. Similar take back with racket face toward back wall, not court, nor side.

Now, Sock is tense and muscular while Jannik's is smooth and fluid, but motion wise?

Photo: Source unknown

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