Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

[tommyhorton]

Just checking out Janicks serve against Halys. Not sure if you would call it a pinpoint. He is sliding his back foot up to about a foot behind his front before he launches. He is more square to the net and not as deep of a kneebend. Looks easier than the other motion

[don_budge]

I saw just a couple of games of the Schwartzman/Sinner match. Trying to catch a glimpse of the current version of Sinner's pinpoint stance. The camera work is a bit suspect if you are trying to get a feel for the serve motion. Many times they zoom in on the top half of the player as they begin to serve and then zoom out so you can never really get a feel for the entire motion. The angles are not quite the best either. Inconclusive.

[don_budge]

Interactive Forum July 2023 Jannik Sinner Serve

Here is a gorgeous frame by frame slow motion clip of Jannik Sinner’s first serve created by Jim Fawcette. Notice the platform stance, the timing of the racket on the windup, the deep knee bend, the timing of the racket entry into the backswing, the contact point, and the full rotation of the hand arm and racket in the followthrough.

No wonder it’s a great serve! But what else do you see?

[mp4t]https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/forum/2023/July_SinnerServeDeuce_IW23.mp4[/mp4t]

The first thing I see is an incomplete video. Missing? The setup, preserve ritual and initiation of the backswing. Very important fundamental aspects in evaluating any service motion. Particularly so here as it is all about the track of the swing. So many years ago...geoffwilliams posted a Pete Sampras serve that had a yellow line tracing the path of the tip of Pete's racquet throughout his swing. That was an impressive piece of video creativity. More missing from this video? Yes...unfortunately we are missing the ending. Vitally important to see the motion from beginning to end to thoroughly understand what is going on in the motion. Like the Nike "swoosh"...it wouldn't be a swoosh if you edited out the tips at both ends.

One more thing. The frame by frame substitute for the actual "motion" video completely eliminated the sense of rhythm or tempo from the observer's eye. Another very fundamental aspect of serve analysis. Coming soon...a scathing critique. Darren Cahill take note.

Analysis to follow.

[don_budge]

A little history on the Jannik Sinner service motion:

2023 Australian Open...Men's Round of Sixteen (Stefanos Tsitsipas vs. Jannik Sinner)

I just did to see if I still had it in me. The header. It used to be my trademark for my posts. A thoughtful clue for what was about to be. Here it is. My one thought regarding this contest is there are actually two thoughts. Number one...Tsitsipas holds a 4-1 head to head advantage. Advantage Tsitsipas. Number two...it is the question about the serve as well it should be in men's tennis. Ladies too come to think of it. Who has more gas in the tank when it comes to the serve? For a while there I was impressed with Sinner's commitment to improve his motion, but it appears to have come to a standstill. After some initial improvement...nothing. So far to my eye. Tsitsipas on the other hand has not lived up to his full potential in the serve department, yet he cannot be ruled out due to extraordinary athletism. This match will come down to the stronger serve.

Sebastien Korda through after rattling his opponents cage.

The Jannik Sinner service motion is the story. He is learning more about it an a match to match basis. His tactics are just beginning to evolve. Splendid! Huge win for Alcarez in the bottom half at this stage of his career. Now if he can just get by Zverev and Sinner takes care of business up on top...we will see a glimpse of the future.

10/24/21

Truer words have never been spoken regarding the service motion and the service game. Jannik Sinner has done himself a huge by adapting and realising he needed to improve his motion. I am somewhat floored by the rather substantial change he has made. This is the closest thing we have seen to a classic service motion and the frictionless delivery that I advocate. The interesting thing is that Sinner's entire game was a notch higher and the level didn't drop during the entire tournament. Straight sets the entire week. Lots of 6-2 sets. Just mowed the field down just as he should. It was a tournament for him to win from the beginning of the draw sheet. This is what it looks like to a champion. Very impressive week. He goes right back to work next week and I am ginning for a Tsitsipas versus Sinner semi-final.

10/24/21
On the other hand in Antwerp...Jannik Sinner's new and improved service motion carried him to the title as he demolished Diego Schwartzman in the finals. Never in trouble on his service game he just rolled the Argentinian. He has something Gonzalezesque going on with the backswing that gently and without any hint of hurry begins its descent behind his back. Like a rollercoaster car coming over the hill. He hasn't unveiled the finished product yet as he is just getting the feel of the effortless and frictionless motion. I predict he is going to banging it in the not too distant future. Truly a lesson for Tsitsipas, Zverev et al.

. 10/23/21
Lloyd Harris advances to test Jannik Sinner and Jensen Brooksby keeps his part of the bargain to face Diego Schwartzman. This tournament could certainly use a Sinner vs. Brooksby final. Or maybe it's just me. Sinner's new and improved service motion has held up quite nicely and the rule of thumb with improved service motions is...the rest of the game goes as the serve goes. He looks to be that much sharper. A better serve means poorer returns which means a ball more easily to be aggressive with. It also means that it affords one to take chances on the opponents serve. Do you see the synergistic effect?

I watched just a bit of all four matches. Sinner took down his opponent in routine fashion. Holding on to his serve. Harris managed to take Fuscovics going away...which is impressive as Fuscovics seems to by very fit. I first noticed Harris a couple of years ago at Wimbledon where he lost first round to Roger Federer. All roads do lead to Federer. The Living Proof. Harris managed to take the first set off of Roger. He was impressive...for that set. Brooksby won going away too. His unorthodox style is going to put off a lot of players in the same way they find it hard to put Medvedev under their thumb. It's not that he just doesn't go away either. He is rather sneaky aggressive. He is what you call a percentage player who takes every possibility under consideration before making his play. It is all done instantly and therefore instinctively. Schwartzman? There is nothing very unpredictable about this undersized, overachiever. His backhand reminds me so much of Aaron Krickstein's and that goes for the slice as well. It's uncanny...like deja vu.

. 10/23/21
Speaking of loving a tennis player's game...I was somewhat impressed with Lorenzo Musetti and Jannik Sinner. But then my impression came to a screeching halt when I remembered another Italian with a truly elegant game. I'm referring to Adriano Panatta. Musetti swooped in on the net a couple of times and knifed a couple of decent backhand volleys. The Musetti single handed backhand held up to a point with the Sinner two handed backhand. Funny how my standards can lapse in a weak moment. Hoping for something to happen on the tour. Hoping that someone will emerge to save the day from the monotonous cookie cutter strong gripped forehand, two handed backhand mode. I was almost seeing Musetti twirling a Dunlop Maxply or a Slazenger wood model. The two of them had a typical slugfest. Lots of drilling the ball from the baseline without much variation...except the Musetti slice backhand. As close to the knifing action that left with Roger Federer. In the end...it was another yawner. I only lasted twenty or thirty minutes in a couple of sittings watching it.

Jannik Sinner's new service motion continues to impress. He served out the first set easily...which is sometimes a dicey situation. He is getting more pop on the ball and it opens up a whole another dimension to his game. The variety of deliveries and placements you can make off such a motion changes the depth of resources that a player brings to the table in a match if you can take advantage of it. This is a tournament that he should be setting his sites on winning. With any luck we shall see a Sinner/Brooksby final. Then we can talk about comparative service motions.

. 10/07/21
I was watching just a bit of a replay between Sinner and Monfils and I could not get over how good Sinner's service motion looked. I wasn't that impressed with it before but I honestly couldn't remember what it was he was doing. The one thing that stood out to me was he was using a platform stance. I thought that it was a pin point before. I did a little research on the web and came up with this video that validated what I suspected about his stance...he had changed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ge53dBrls

There has been discussion about the Zverev serve and now what's his name...the American "phenom". Brooksby? Not impressed at all with that serve. But Sinner really ironed out some kinks by going to platform...keep in mind that both johnyandell and BrianGordon are also advocates of platform. As I am. I was impressed with Sinner's motion and trust me...this opens up the path going forwards. There is much to improve and now he has the solid foundation to work from.

[jimlosaltos]

Thanks Jim. I always worry about youngsters who copy movement styles that may never be compatible with body types. Contact at 1 foot((Sinner) to 4 foot ( Isner) must mean something. I wonder how far in Schwartzmann's contact is? Variability in degrees of back arch also seem be of note. Shoulder and back flexibilty and conditioning must be a high priority for some.

Teaching juniors must be both very challenging and rewarding

[doctorhl]

Thanks Jim. I always worry about youngsters who copy movement styles that may never be compatible with body types. Contact at 1 foot((Sinner) to 4 foot ( Isner) must mean something. I wonder how far in Schwartzmann's contact is? Variability in degrees of back arch also seem be of note. Shoulder and back flexibilty and conditioning must be a high priority for some.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim and JY: At the moment of impact on Jim's post #5 in this thread, if you dropped a plumb line from the center of racket face to the ground, can you guestimate how far into the court the plumb would drop? I am not fully appreciating the amount of sidebend and back arch needed, and where exactly on his toss arc contact was made. I also am having trouble appreciating the amount of external rotation needed when the shoulder angle appears to be about 90 degrees flexed while elbow is at 110 degrees in second 42 of the video.. I dont think even at birth I was that flexible! I know JY and Brian Gordon have discussed this, I just need to find it. Would be Sinner considered average or an outlier for ESR and back arch?

Pulled this pic just for you To me, Jannik does NOT go particularly far into the court. More of his energy goes upward. Hard to tell from straight on, but I'd say maybe a foot into the court?

As far as I can see, the only change to his stance was that his platform was broadened, perhaps for stability to enable the even-deeper knee bend?
Some others have said how feet point has changed, but can't say myself.

P.S. Takes him a long time to recover, having to gather all those long limbs flying around <g>.

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[stroke]

Sinner to me a bit if an enigma. He hits such a big ball off of everything, but he is such a slight thin build, nothing like Roddick or Sampras. He is maybe 6'2", or 6'3", not usually tall by today's standards. I would say he is very close to maximizing his serving potential.

[jimlosaltos]

I think it is clear with the more closed stance, along with the toss at times being more to the left with more bending, he has increased the action and the margins on his serve. The more pronounced delayed take back to me just turbo charges a more violent motion, a la maybe Goran. We will never know, but I would guess he is getting more rpm's on his serve, when he goes for that, than he ever has.

Side note, a lot of us considered the heavy Sampras 2nd serve the gold standard, but JY quantitatively showed us Roddick actually produced even more rpm's. To me that comes down to the absolute violent nature of his motion. Sinner to me has stepped up his "violence".

I like your use of "violence" here for the motion around impact. Concise.

[stroke]

So, responding to some questions here, I spent some time reviewing earlier video online of SInner's serve.

Here's my amateur take:
Changes from 2021 to 2022: in other 2022 video, Jannik started to delay the take back of his racket from 2021, creating more "lag", and deepened his knee bend. All platform.

In my video for TPN, the knee bend is even deeper than in those 2022 vids on YT. I believe Jannik has also moved his toss my video. The impact point is still above his left/racket arm shoulder, but he appears to me to be bending further and his toss is further to his left along the baseline. There seems to be an increased leftward angle in his wrist at impact. On one kick serve, the toss moves even further to his left.

I'm not going to embarrass myself by guessing what the objective is. Hopefully, someone will explain that.
His motion does seem more complex now, which has potential downsides. But I suppose if one is a pro, hitting serves every single day, one can manage that complexity.

I think it is clear with the more closed stance, along with the toss at times being more to the left with more bending, he has increased the action and the margins on his serve. The more pronounced delayed take back to me just turbo charges a more violent motion, a la maybe Goran. We will never know, but I would guess he is getting more rpm's on his serve, when he goes for that, than he ever has.

Side note, a lot of us considered the heavy Sampras 2nd serve the gold standard, but JY quantitatively showed us Roddick actually produced even more rpm's. To me that comes down to the absolute violent nature of his motion. Sinner to me has stepped up his "violence".

[jimlosaltos]

So, responding to some questions here, I spent some time reviewing earlier video online of SInner's serve.

Here's my amateur take:
Changes from 2021 to 2022: in other 2022 video, Jannik started to delay the take back of his racket from 2021, creating more "lag", and deepened his knee bend. All platform.

In my video for TPN, the knee bend is even deeper than in those 2022 vids on YT. I believe Jannik has also moved his toss my video. The impact point is still above his left/racket arm shoulder, but he appears to me to be bending further and his toss is further to his left along the baseline. There seems to be an increased leftward angle in his wrist at impact. On one kick serve, the toss moves even further to his left.

I'm not going to embarrass myself by guessing what the objective is. Hopefully, someone will explain that.
His motion does seem more complex now, which has potential downsides. But I suppose if one is a pro, hitting serves every single day, one can manage that complexity.

[stroke]

I also feel I have been frozen out. Stroke is very offended, super offended. For shizzle my nizzles. You won't have Stroke to kick around much longer.

This was an in jest post. Stroke is not really offended.

[jimlosaltos]

I didn't know there was a camera that could shoot stills at 120 fps. That's wild. Sounds like the "pre-capture" makes it possible. The result of all your work from takeing the stills to importing into lightroom to video is really spectacular. I've never seen anything quite like it. The image just pops.

Thanks again

[jeffreycounts]

Jeffrey, at the risk of providing more than you're interested in, it was shot at 120 fps. But this was still photography, which I converted into video afterwards, so it's not exactly analogous.

I didn't know there was a camera that could shoot stills at 120 fps. That's wild. Sounds like the "pre-capture" makes it possible. The result of all your work from takeing the stills to importing into lightroom to video is really spectacular. I've never seen anything quite like it. The image just pops.

[johnyandell]

Don't get it Stroke! Help me understand pls!