The Serve Doctor

[jeffreycounts]

Let's get your thoughts on the final article in Chris Lewit's Winning Pretty Servie series, "The Serve Doctor"

[doctorhl]

Great article that allows for technique variability based on real world experience of different skill levels, body composition, etc., in addition to recommended biomechanical parameters. Chris, I agree with your ball toss locations for lst and second serves, but I have a hard time presenting it in from 2D video clips. Can someone retrieve clips showing the two serve contact points in a side by side comparison of 1st and 2nd serves from various pros using a direct overhead viewpoint? I think John has presenteda lot of that somewhere. I wonder how much difference between the 1st and 2nd serve is caused by contact points versus conscious change in swing paths or both? Federer seemed to be a textbook example of one who had success with little variance in ball toss location, which required slight changes in swing paths and/or racket face pronation angles at contact. Individual ball toss variance is something that isnt always emphasized in early development.

[stotty]

The majority of women seem to be pinpoint. Why is that?

I don't teach a child a kick serve until they are least 14 years old. The reason for this is I had a kid (25 years ago) with a stress fracture in his back who had to be put in cast for several month. I am not 100% sure learning the kick serve caused the fracture, but it likely didn't help. The kid was 12 at the time. I have steered away from teaching the kick serve early ever since.

Another thing I have found is unless a kick serve is executed very well, it simply becomes a liability. Players are just so good at demolishing balls that sit up these days – which a mediocre kick serve will do.

One thing I would like to have an opinion is the tossing arm. How far should a player rotate the tossing arm? I usually teach tossing the ball in line (roughly) with the net post...so around a 45 degree angle. Sampras rotated far more. His tossing arm was almost in line with the baseline, which obviously turns (rotates) the shoulder more. I use this deeper tossing method myself. For some servers, this kind of over rotation (for want of a better term) can cause havoc with rhythm and smoothness —but it can also, I believe, give slightly better disguise for those whose motion it suits. I would be curious to know Chris's (and others) thoughts on this.

[jimlosaltos]

The majority of women seem to be pinpoint. Why is that?

One thing I would like to have an opinion is the tossing arm. How far should a player rotate the tossing arm? I usually teach tossing the ball in line (roughly) with the net post...so around a 45 degree angle. Sampras rotated far more. His tossing arm was almost in line with the baseline, which obviously turns (rotates) the shoulder more. I use this deeper tossing method myself. For some servers, this kind of over rotation (for want of a better term) can cause havoc with rhythm and smoothness —but it can also, I believe, give slightly better disguise for those whose motion it suits. I would be curious to know Chris's (and others) thoughts on this.

Let me add this composite of two images I uploaded to the Gauff serve discussion. Fed's toss and, on his kick serve, his swing is along the baseline, while Coco opens her shoulders early.

filedata/fetch?id=107170&d=1747092339&type=thumb
Photos Coco Indian Wells by me, Fed, a screen cap from John's long ago slow motion vid of fed.

[jimlosaltos]

The majority of women seem to be pinpoint. Why is that?

I don't teach a child a kick serve until they are least 14 years old. The reason for this is I had a kid (25 years ago) with a stress fracture in his back who had to be put in cast for several month. I am not 100% sure learning the kick serve caused the fracture, but it likely didn't help. The kid was 12 at the time. I have steered away from teaching the kick serve early ever since.

Another thing I have found is unless a kick serve is executed very well, it simply becomes a liability. Players are just so good at demolishing balls that sit up these days – which a mediocre kick serve will do.

One thing I would like to have an opinion is the tossing arm. How far should a player rotate the tossing arm? I usually teach tossing the ball in line (roughly) with the net post...so around a 45 degree angle. Sampras rotated far more. His tossing arm was almost in line with the baseline, which obviously turns (rotates) the shoulder more. I use this deeper tossing method myself. For some servers, this kind of over rotation (for want of a better term) can cause havoc with rhythm and smoothness —but it can also, I believe, give slightly better disguise for those whose motion it suits. I would be curious to know Chris's (and others) thoughts on this.

Heck, let me rummage around in the dusty corners of my hard drive. Ah, there he is Pistol Pete in 2011, having switched to a Babolat from his old black Wilson and having a bit of a bald spot. But I'd recognize that motion anywhere.

filedata/fetch?id=107172&d=1747092756&type=thumb

filedata/fetch?id=107173&d=1747092756&type=thumb

San Jose, 2011 (c)me

[stotty]

Jim

I was going to ask in my post if you could find something to back up my claim but then I thought, no, Jim will do that anyway....thanks!

It's amazing when you look where his left foot is pointing. It just shows how much he's turning. The position of the front foot, both from the outset and during the serve, governs so much.

[jimlosaltos]

Jim

I was going to ask in my post if you could find something to back up my claim but then I thought, no, Jim will do that anyway....thanks!

It's amazing when you look where his left foot is pointing. It just shows how much he's turning. The position of the front foot, both from the outset and during the serve, governs so much.

I live to serve

I've been trying to remember a quote from Sampras about his serve from when he was in San Jose -- some about bend, corkscrew .... . Darn I can't remember.

Tangentially, Sampras on his racket change was quite interesting. Said he wished he had changed from his black Wilson with very tight gut the Babolat with, I think, RPG years earlier. Pete said his "arm always hurt". But didn't after the switch. The cliche' that cooly is hard and gut soft depends on a bunch of other things.

[stroke]

I live to serve

I've been trying to remember a quote from Sampras about his serve from when he was in San Jose -- some about bend, corkscrew .... . Darn I can't remember.

Tangentially, Sampras on his racket change was quite interesting. Said he wished he had changed from his black Wilson with very tight gut the Babolat with, I think, RPG years earlier. Pete said his "arm always hurt". But didn't after the switch. The cliche' that cooly is hard and gut soft depends on a bunch of other things.

He played with such a heavy racquet, close to 14 ounces with a high swingweight. It would be interesting to know if he decreased those specs when he said that about tge Babolat Pure Control( I think that was the racquet).

[airforce1]

Is tossing to one spot an Advanced skill or a beginner basic skill?

I'd say it is a more basic skill and that focusing on developing one good, correct toss is the first and foremost skill that a beginner must seek to master!
The reasoning behind this is that every bad toss is either requiring a balk for bad tosses, a hesitation on better tosses or a compensation of technique on every swing at a poor toss. This is a minimum of 3 bad outcomes of negative practice that we can see for players who don't have a very solid toss developed.
What is odd to me is that often we see players who can't execute one well placed toss, but trying to work with 2-3 different toss locations, as well as the serve they think matches well with those intended tosses.

My suggestion is to develop one primary toss and the main serve that it matches, before considering different toss locations (if that is ever even needed... which I question)

[neilchok]

Is tossing to one spot an Advanced skill or a beginner basic skill?

I'd say it is a more basic skill and that focusing on developing one good, correct toss is the first and foremost skill that a beginner must seek to master!
The reasoning behind this is that every bad toss is either requiring a balk for bad tosses, a hesitation on better tosses or a compensation of technique on every swing at a poor toss. This is a minimum of 3 bad outcomes of negative practice that we can see for players who don't have a very solid toss developed.
What is odd to me is that often we see players who can't execute one well placed toss, but trying to work with 2-3 different toss locations, as well as the serve they think matches well with those intended tosses.

My suggestion is to develop one primary toss and the main serve that it matches, before considering different toss locations (if that is ever even needed... which I question)

I think a lot of people have one toss for first serves, and one toss for second serves. But it seems some pros now have one toss for everything