Roland Garros aka The French Open

[stotty]

I certainly agree. The "shot quality" measurements often supplied is the best indicator of the players forehand, bh, serve, and serve return. For instance, Sabalenka would have probably been abysmal in all 4 categories in the FO Final

I’m not about to rewatch the recent final just to confirm the exact court positioning (I’m sure the stats are out there), but it looked like both players were pressing up on the baseline quite a bit. When that happens—especially when they’re tight to or even inside the baseline—ball speed really starts to matter. The closer you are, the less time your opponent has to react, so those numbers become far more impactful than when players are trading from deeper behind the baseline, like Zverev and Musetti.

Jim, thanks for your reply. Interesting what you said about measuring a player's speed versus judging a player by what ‘looks’ quick to the eye. Tennis movement is unusually specific in my view, but I generally judge tennis speed in three areas: short distance (bursts), medium distance, and the expanse. Player’s who are quick over the expanse tend to grab all the headlines; think Carlos and Monfils. I’d take Novak and Borg over the medium distances. Believe or not I would take McEnroe over short distances—he’s a distant memory to most of us now but his speed around the net was quite exceptional; he was quick in his head. Overall I would take Roger. He moved so beautifully in all three departments.

[stroke]

I’m not about to rewatch the recent final just to confirm the exact court positioning (I’m sure the stats are out there), but it looked like both players were pressing up on the baseline quite a bit. When that happens—especially when they’re tight to or even inside the baseline—ball speed really starts to matter. The closer you are, the less time your opponent has to react, so those numbers become far more impactful than when players are trading from deeper behind the baseline, like Zverev and Musetti.

Jim, thanks for your reply. Interesting what you said about measuring a player's speed versus judging a player by what ‘looks’ quick to the eye. Tennis movement is unusually specific in my view, but I generally judge tennis speed in three areas: short distance (bursts), medium distance, and the expanse. Player’s who are quick over the expanse tend to grab all the headlines; think Carlos and Monfils. I’d take Novak and Borg over the medium distances. Believe or not I would take McEnroe over short distances—he’s a distant memory to most of us now but his speed around the net was quite exceptional; he was quick in his head. Overall I would take Roger. He moved so beautifully in all three departments.

Rodger the gold standard. To me, Sinner most mirrors his genius in the respect of taking the ball on early. In fact, his bh is much more of a weapon than Rodger's in this respect. He clearly does not have the hand skills or slice bh of Roger.

[jimlosaltos]

I’m not about to rewatch the recent final just to confirm the exact court positioning (I’m sure the stats are out there), but it looked like both players were pressing up on the baseline quite a bit. When that happens—especially when they’re tight to or even inside the baseline—ball speed really starts to matter. The closer you are, the less time your opponent has to react, so those numbers become far more impactful than when players are trading from deeper behind the baseline, like Zverev and Musetti.

Jim, thanks for your reply. Interesting what you said about measuring a player's speed versus judging a player by what ‘looks’ quick to the eye. Tennis movement is unusually specific in my view, but I generally judge tennis speed in three areas: short distance (bursts), medium distance, and the expanse. Player’s who are quick over the expanse tend to grab all the headlines; think Carlos and Monfils. I’d take Novak and Borg over the medium distances. Believe or not I would take McEnroe over short distances—he’s a distant memory to most of us now but his speed around the net was quite exceptional; he was quick in his head. Overall I would take Roger. He moved so beautifully in all three departments.

Yes, I think people forget just how well Peak Fed moved. As Andy Roddick said, "Federer was both the best offensive and the best defensive player." I'm not sure when anyone else could have claimed that distinction. And La Monf! Good addition. After an exhibition in San Jose ( the pictures of Sampras' serve came from that} Pete said he hadn't played anyone faster than Monfils. { roughly }. Pete hit some good drop volleys and Monfis just flew to them. Pete bent over and grabbed the hem of his shorts. Monfils responded by doing push ups on court. Priceless.

And, yes, so much goes into movement. Nadal, coaching Fed [and there's an image} who was struggling against Kyrgios at the Laver Cup Chicago said "Yes, he sees the ball so well." Is that speed? I believe it's part of it. The NFL now tests draft prospects for quickness in pattern recognition. The 49ers QB taken as the last player in the draft because of his mediocre measurements, had one of the highest scores yet on that visual recognition test. Just signed a new ~$51 Million contract. Despite small hands and weak arm.

At the risk of too much baseball, I saw a Statcast measurement of the time it took an outfielder from the moment a line drive was hit toward him from ~250 feet away to taking his first step on the way to making a great catch at .... something under a half second to three digits, maybe?

[jimlosaltos]

Rodger the gold standard. To me, Sinner most mirrors his genius in the respect of taking the ball on early. In fact, his bh is much more of a weapon than Rodger's in this respect. He clearly does not have the hand skills or slice bh of Roger.

Always liked the phrase "stealing time from the opponent". Fed/ Sinner taking the ball early and refusing to surrender the baseline is one way they excel.

In my earlier post from Andrea Petkovic she uses that phrase for Coco in a manner I hadn't seen. Petko said Coco is so fast to recognize short balls -- and get there -- that it steals time from her opponents, who can't recover adequately.

Andre Agassi also "stole time" from opponents with his reflexes and court position.

[stroke]

Always liked the phrase "stealing time from the opponent". Fed/ Sinner taking the ball early and refusing to surrender the baseline is one way they excel.

In my earlier post from Andrea Petkovic she uses that phrase for Coco in a manner I hadn't seen. Petko said Coco is so fast to recognize short balls -- and get there -- that it steals time from her opponents, who can't recover adequately.

Andre Agassi also "stole time" from opponents with his reflexes and court position.

Andre was the first to me, and the first player that truly presented nowhere to go, forehand and backhand both great. Now of course a lot of players like this.

[airforce1]

Another: MLB measures "spin components", rather than just measuring RPMs and maybe saying X percent is sidespin. So, pitching coaches teach how to change finger pressure to increase the gyro spin component. You create Shohei Ohtani's almost unhittable "sweeper" {league batting average against it is a paltry .138.}

Pitching coaches used to tell players to "correct" their grip if they threw that pitch. Now everyone is copying him & other Japanese pitchers.

Compare that to the clock model in teaching tennis serves, i.e. hit from the 3 to the 8.

#

Excellent post and right on target to what is being discussed in the the Fade vs Draw article.
In the past (and of course it still happens) coaches will try to correct a player from hitting Diagonal Fade TopSpin on their Drives ( ex...happened to Raducanu and Medvedev)
even when that shot is the Premier Shot in tennis... very much like the spike is to volleyball.

[jimlosaltos]

Excellent post and right on target to what is being discussed in the the Fade vs Draw article.
In the past (and of course it still happens) coaches will try to correct a player from hitting Diagonal Fade TopSpin on their Drives ( ex...happened to Raducanu and Medvedev)
even when that shot is the Premier Shot in tennis... very much like the spike is to volleyball.

Thanks Posted that before I read the article ... which is great! Serendipity.

[don_budge]

Statistics vs. Reality...

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

"What is power", I ask the student. It's a rhetorical question. A question asked primarily to make a point or create a dramatic effect rather than to elicit an answer. Control is power. The three elements of control are speed, placement and spin. Since tennis is such a situational challenge it is the combination or blending of the three elements that express the true measure of power. If you control the ball, then you can control your opponent. If you can control your opponent, then you control the match. Tennis metaphors life...always. Control being an essential element in the living of one's life. Think of relationships as an example. The constant jockeying for control.

Statistics have their place, but it certainly isn't in tennis. Attempting to quantify a qualitative experience is bound to be ineffective. That being said...the herd likes statistics. MPH. RPM. %%%%% ad infinitum. That's fine. Impressive MPH...means nothing in terms of control without spin and placement. In golf it is said that the woods are full of long drivers of the golf ball. Modern tennis has certainly become a game of speed. An over emphasis of speed compared to the original game. The true game of tennis. It actually changed the paradigm of tennis. Perhaps it would be best to rename the game. Bang Ball. Something moronic and simple. Or return the game to original meaning. Original definition. Make Tennis Great Again!!!