Winning Pretty: Keys to the Kick - Part 1

[jeffreycounts]

This month, we present Part One of Chris Lewit’s chapter on the kick serve, excerpted from his upcoming book Winning Pretty!

Let's discuss!

[jimlosaltos]

Since Chris mentioned "slice topspin" let me resurface my old video of Milos Raonic vs Novak Djokovic from 9 years ago, You Tube 32 seconds.
I hope Chris won't find this a digression, since the serve is more slice than kick, but I'd argue a healthy dose of both.

I got some flack at the time for referring to this as "kick slice". Novak is aced, in part because the motion tricked him. Watch closely and you'll see a stutter half-step to his left just as the ball is hit. By the time he recovers it is too late.

But, I'd argue the topspin on this ball is even more important to acting Novak than the slice, slow this down enough and you can see the serve is above Novak's head when his racket is nearest ball -- and still rising. I wish I hadn't cut the video off quite as early because the ball hits the top of the scoreboard. If you haven't been at Indian Wells, this is a large stadium. Hitting the top of the scoreboard with a wide serve is something.

On a good enough monitor, if one has the patience to step through frame by frame, I estimate the ball is rotating at a 30 deg angle. Perhaps one could crudely say 30% of the rotation is topspin.

Final notes: This is after Raonic significantly changed his already extremely successful serve. He slowed down his serve a bit, and went for more spin and more disguise. How good was Milos' service? Jack Sock, who is a friend of John Isner and practiced with him, said Milos' was more difficult for him to return because "it moves more".

YouTube 32 Seconds. You might want to click the open-box icon in the lower right corner to see full screen.

[hybridfh]

Since Chris mentioned "slice topspin" let me resurface my old video of Milos Raonic vs Novak Djokovic from 9 years ago, You Tube 32 seconds.
I hope Chris won't find this a digression, since the serve is more slice than kick, but I'd argue a healthy dose of both.

I got some flack at the time for referring to this as "kick slice". Novak is aced, in part because the motion tricked him. Watch closely and you'll see a stutter half-step to his left just as the ball is hit. By the time he recovers it is too late.

But, I'd argue the topspin on this ball is even more important to acting Novak than the slice, slow this down enough and you can see the serve is above Novak's head when his racket is nearest ball -- and still rising. I wish I hadn't cut the video off quite as early because the ball hits the top of the scoreboard. If you haven't been at Indian Wells, this is a large stadium. Hitting the top of the scoreboard with a wide serve is something.

On a good enough monitor, if one has the patience to step through frame by frame, I estimate the ball is rotating at a 30 deg angle. Perhaps one could crudely say 30% of the rotation is topspin.

Final notes: This is after Raonic significantly changed his already extremely successful serve. He slowed down his serve a bit, and went for more spin and more disguise. How good was Milos' service? Jack Sock, who is a friend of John Isner and practiced with him, said Milos' was more difficult for him to return because "it moves more".

YouTube 32 Seconds. You might want to click the open-box icon in the lower right corner to see full screen.

Respectfully, I don't see how the motion "tricked" Novak. I don't see anything tricky about it other than it's a wide slider (which is only hit about 25% of the time, very roughly speaking) and Novak just guessed wrong. It's not a kick toss by any means.

[stotty]

Since Chris mentioned "slice topspin" let me resurface my old video of Milos Raonic vs Novak Djokovic from 9 years ago, You Tube 32 seconds.
I hope Chris won't find this a digression, since the serve is more slice than kick, but I'd argue a healthy dose of both.

I got some flack at the time for referring to this as "kick slice". Novak is aced, in part because the motion tricked him. Watch closely and you'll see a stutter half-step to his left just as the ball is hit. By the time he recovers it is too late.

But, I'd argue the topspin on this ball is even more important to acting Novak than the slice, slow this down enough and you can see the serve is above Novak's head when his racket is nearest ball -- and still rising. I wish I hadn't cut the video off quite as early because the ball hits the top of the scoreboard. If you haven't been at Indian Wells, this is a large stadium. Hitting the top of the scoreboard with a wide serve is something.

On a good enough monitor, if one has the patience to step through frame by frame, I estimate the ball is rotating at a 30 deg angle. Perhaps one could crudely say 30% of the rotation is topspin.

Final notes: This is after Raonic significantly changed his already extremely successful serve. He slowed down his serve a bit, and went for more spin and more disguise. How good was Milos' service? Jack Sock, who is a friend of John Isner and practiced with him, said Milos' was more difficult for him to return because "it moves more".

YouTube 32 Seconds. You might want to click the open-box icon in the lower right corner to see full screen.

The topspin on the serve looks relatively mild to me. Novak, who reads a serve better than anyone over the course of match, appears to misread the cues and picks the wrong direction. Milos has successfully disguised his placement on that occasion. One thing we do know is Milos doesn’t win the match since he has never beaten Novak.

[stroke]

There is no doubt Raonic had one of the very best serves on Tour. To me, when he was playing, the only 2 guys that had an argument for a better serve was Isner and Karlovic. This serve that Jim linked, I would simply say it is a very high quality topspin/slice serve. When Milos strikes the ball on the right side of the ball, the racquet head is slightly tilted(inside of his hitting hand) and still has room to move up as he strikes the ball.

[jimlosaltos]

The topspin on the serve looks relatively mild to me. Novak, who reads a serve better than anyone over the course of match, appears to misread the cues and picks the wrong direction. Milos has successfully disguised his placement on that occasion. One thing we do know is Milos doesn’t win the match since he has never beaten Novak.

Good memory! Yes, Djoko won the title that day, 2016.

My admittedly crude estimate is 30% topspin -- merely from eyeballing the logo rotation. So, I'm not sure we disagree?
I'm just trying to say many ATP players put a fair amount of topspin on their slice serves, contrary to some discussions of slice serves and how to hit them, and here's one with some real work on it.

It has to have 'real" topspin to get up so high. It's not like Isner "spiking" a serve in the front half of the box. This was maybe 3 feet short along the sideline. Again, when it goes over Djokovic's outstretched racket, it's still climbing. That's no Medvedev slice fading softly way off to the left.

It hit the top of the scoreboard to the left of the ball kid. Here's a blurry screenshot from the video.

At any rate, I thought it was interesting.

filedata/fetch?id=108008&d=1753313940&type=thumb

[stotty]

Good memory! Yes, Djoko won the title that day, 2016.

My admittedly crude estimate is 30% topspin -- merely from eyeballing the logo rotation. So, I'm not sure we disagree?
I'm just trying to say many ATP players put a fair amount of topspin on their slice serves, contrary to some discussions of slice serves and how to hit them, and here's one with some real work on it.

It has to have 'real" topspin to get up so high. It's not like Isner "spiking" a serve in the front half of the box. This was maybe 3 feet short along the sideline. Again, when it goes over Djokovic's outstretched racket, it's still climbing. That's no Medvedev slice fading softly way off to the left.

It hit the top of the scoreboard to the left of the ball kid. Here's a blurry screenshot from the video.

At any rate, I thought it was interesting.

filedata/fetch?id=108008&d=1753313940&type=thumb

Good observation backed up with photo evidence. It’s extraordinary how high the ball has risen up and one has to assume a good degree of topspin was on that serve, plus it's coming down from a great height from a server who is very tall and gets right up there off the ground too — these factors all add up to a higher bounce.

[doctorhl]

Since Chris mentioned "slice topspin" let me resurface my old video of Milos Raonic vs Novak Djokovic from 9 years ago, You Tube 32 seconds.
I hope Chris won't find this a digression, since the serve is more slice than kick, but I'd argue a healthy dose of both.

I got some flack at the time for referring to this as "kick slice". Novak is aced, in part because the motion tricked him. Watch closely and you'll see a stutter half-step to his left just as the ball is hit. By the time he recovers it is too late.

But, I'd argue the topspin on this ball is even more important to acting Novak than the slice, slow this down enough and you can see the serve is above Novak's head when his racket is nearest ball -- and still rising. I wish I hadn't cut the video off quite as early because the ball hits the top of the scoreboard. If you haven't been at Indian Wells, this is a large stadium. Hitting the top of the scoreboard with a wide serve is something.

On a good enough monitor, if one has the patience to step through frame by frame, I estimate the ball is rotating at a 30 deg angle. Perhaps one could crudely say 30% of the rotation is topspin.

Final notes: This is after Raonic significantly changed his already extremely successful serve. He slowed down his serve a bit, and went for more spin and more disguise. How good was Milos' service? Jack Sock, who is a friend of John Isner and practiced with him, said Milos' was more difficult for him to return because "it moves more".

YouTube 32 Seconds. You might want to click the open-box icon in the lower right corner to see full screen.

It looks like one of those late breaking serves that make the receiver hold their position for a split second because the ball path looks straight, but then breaks away late in a curve drop motion. Although extremely difficult to view his break from that camera angle, it looks like the break occurred about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way over the service court. His height gives him air space to land a late breaking curve drop ball. His power enables him to get the right spin to speed ratio to enable the ball to break late. Hard to produce consistently. Difficult for receiver to get a jump on the serve.

[jimlosaltos]

It looks like one of those late breaking serves that make the receiver hold their position for a split second because the ball path looks straight, but then breaks away late in a curve drop motion. Although extremely difficult to view his break from that camera angle, it looks like the break occurred about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way over the service court. His height gives him air space to land a late breaking curve drop ball. His power enables him to get the right spin to speed ratio to enable the ball to break late. Hard to produce consistently. Difficult for receiver to get a jump on the serve.

Thanks for input.