Soderling's Backhand; Video Available?

[GMann]

Hi everyone. Does anyone have any video of Soderling's backhand? That thing was a hammer. I'd love to study it in slow motion.

While we're on the subject, I'd love to know if anyone has any insight as to how some rare players can truly blast a two handed backhand. For me, the forehand and one hander are pretty easy to generate almost unlimited power but the two handed backhand has always puzzled me as to how even among the pros how rare it is to see someone really blast it.

Even among the pros, I can only think of a few players who can blast the two hander: Soderling, Sharapova, Safin, Safina (?), Agassi, Azarenka, Spadea, Mardy Fish, and maybe Murray.

I'm not talking about merely good two handed backhands, I'm talking about a true weapon that can be hit almost as hard as the big forehands. Something like 90 MPH or close to it. This has always been a mystery to me. I'd love some insight as to what you think is the key to this unusual power on the backhand side. I know how to hit a solid two hander consistently and can blast my forehand and one hander, but I can't blast the two hander constently. I don't need a lecture on the basics of the two hander. I know that. I want to know how these select players can blast it. It's also rare among the top juniors and only about 5 players in the nation who can do this come to mind.

[johnyandell]

There will be some high speed video of him next month!

As to your other question, I don't think there is a technical answer to that. It's probably the same reason Pete's serve was Pete's serve or Roger's forehand is his forehand. Naturally ability to create racket head speed.

Soderling is interesting because he obviously hits the ball hard and flat--but you can evaluate his motion for yourself.

One other point, you never see top players with two backhands, or at least two backhand drives, one with one hand and one with two. It's hard enough to have one.

[airforce1]

Hi everyone. Does anyone have any video of Soderling's backhand? That thing was a hammer. I'd love to study it in slow motion.

While we're on the subject, I'd love to know if anyone has any insight as to how some rare players can truly blast a two handed backhand. For me, the forehand and one hander are pretty easy to generate almost unlimited power but the two handed backhand has always puzzled me as to how even among the pros how rare it is to see someone really blast it.

My feeling here is that it is great shoulder turn, combined with a powerful contact point.
Hitting flatter doesn't hurt either.
Most of the pros can do it easy enough, but just don't want all the risk of a 90 mph flat BH in their game every rally.

[GMann]

Powerful Two-Handed Backhands

I appreciate both of your responses.

John, that's great news that you've got video of Soderling's backhand coming out in the next isssue because I can't find any footage of him anywhere. I will be looking forward to seeing that.

With regard to your feeling that there is no technical reason for Soderling's backhand power and that it's just his natural ability to create "racket head speed"...This is eerily reminiscent of our "Great Roscoe Tanner Nature vs. Nurture Serve Debate" of 2007 (or thereabouts). I hesitate to bring up a sore subject but a large part of that discussion was your feeling that the apex toss should be left to the "freaks" against my insistence that this could be learned to some extent if one could uncover the "trick" behind it.

I agree that a lot of these naturally talented professional players have "God given" intuition as to how to create power, but I am certain that us mere mortals can learn the technical reason for this power and can recreate a lot of it.

Some examples. Growing up as a junior player I could hit a solid one handed backhand but could never pound it with great power until I discovered some technical secrets of the stroke. I was still the same person who couldn't generate tremendous power until I learned the technical secret. So, even though I wasn't born with natural "racket head speed" I learned to generate it from a technical secret. A similar thing happened with my forehand where after thousands of hours practice and analysis I got to the point where I could hit it with just about all of my might and it would travel hard and usually stay in the court. Until I discovered those technical secrets I could swing with all my might and couldn't generate much power.

Therefore, I am confident that there are some technical reasons or secrets as to how someone can murder a two-handed backhand.

I don't expect to hit it as hard as Soderling but I believe there is a way to be able to hit it in the same neighborhood of a very big forehand, but very few people seem to be able to do this even the vast majority of the pros.

My point is that while I and others seemed to have discovered technical secrets as to how to generate tremendous power on the forehand and one handed BH, very few seem to be able to discover how to do this with a two handed BH. This includes the pros where we can only name a small handful of people who can do this. Obviously, one of the key areas to focus on is how to use leverage which seems to be more easily done on the forehand and one handed BH. But with two hands on the backhand, creating leverage seems to be an ongoing challenge because the two hands conflict with each other and create complications. I even once spoke to Pat Dougherty ("Serve Doctor at IMG) about this and even he, who prides himself on his understanding and application of science to tennis technique, had almost given up on mastering power on the the two handed backhand and at one point started encouraging his players to stick to or move to the one handed backhand.

In my experience, I usually have limited power on the two hander but for 5 to 20 minute periods I find that I am blasting it but then this ability keeps going away. What I'm trying to figure out is what technical tip will enable me to continue to blast this thing at will where the power will not all of a sudden disappear again and again. Obviously, this is not simply a question of "God given racket head speed" because I am the same person who could blast the thing 20 minutes ago.

I'm hoping that someone like Jeff Counts has some insight into this because he seems to pride himself on studying pros and trying to duplicate what they do.

[johnyandell]

OK, we can agree to disagree. One assumption here is that one-handed backhands in general have more ball speed that two-handers. Not at all sure that is true. In fact I'm pretty sure that it's not. But it would take a substantial amount of shot spot data to validate that one way or the other.

If the best players in the world are hitting the two-hander at a certain speed relative to their forehands or serves, I think the rest of the 99.9999% of us should be happy to have similar ratios at lower speeds.

[crass_lawner]

Wow I wrote a huge post but then something got screwed up and it disappeared. Anyways I'll try to write a more concise version here. I think the secret to an exceptionally powerful 2hbh is the lean, i.e. getting your body weight into the shot. Players like Simon, Safin, and Nalbandian all excel in this area. I haven't seen much of Soderling, but with the pace he was hitting his bhs, I'm pretty sure he used his body weight more effectively than most.

Height is very important here (or in Nalbandian's case just body mass). As you may have noticed all the players I mentioned are above average height, and Del Potro could be thrown into that group. The taller players can really lean in and hit down on most balls. An effective body lean requires exceptional balance and timing, both of which can be difficult to recognize (and learn), and are often attributed to "god-given talent."

[airforce1]

If the best players in the world are hitting the two-hander at a certain speed relative to their forehands or serves, I think the rest of the 99.9999% of us should be happy to have similar ratios at lower speeds.

where did this come from? talking about something that would take a lot of data to back up...

[johnyandell]

Right, I'm just saying that in my mind, the two-hander, as with all strokes, is what it is. I don't think you can find some magic bullet in the technique of one world class or any other player that magically produces an exponential gain in racket head speed. The fact is that all the top pros with two-handed backhands have basically great technique.

My own view is that you make your technique as good as you possibly can and let god take care of the power. So whatever the speed ratios between your various strokes, that's probably what god intended.

[uspta990770809]

Secret to 2 hander speed

I appreciate both of your responses.

John, that's great news that you've got video of Soderling's backhand coming out in the next isssue because I can't find any footage of him anywhere. I will be looking forward to seeing that.

With regard to your feeling that there is no technical reason for Soderling's backhand power and that it's just his natural ability to create "racket head speed"...This is eerily reminiscent of our "Great Roscoe Tanner Nature vs. Nurture Serve Debate" of 2007 (or thereabouts). I hesitate to bring up a sore subject but a large part of that discussion was your feeling that the apex toss should be left to the "freaks" against my insistence that this could be learned to some extent if one could uncover the "trick" behind it.

I agree that a lot of these naturally talented professional players have "God given" intuition as to how to create power, but I am certain that us mere mortals can learn the technical reason for this power and can recreate a lot of it.

Some examples. Growing up as a junior player I could hit a solid one handed backhand but could never pound it with great power until I discovered some technical secrets of the stroke. I was still the same person who couldn't generate tremendous power until I learned the technical secret. So, even though I wasn't born with natural "racket head speed" I learned to generate it from a technical secret. A similar thing happened with my forehand where after thousands of hours practice and analysis I got to the point where I could hit it with just about all of my might and it would travel hard and usually stay in the court. Until I discovered those technical secrets I could swing with all my might and couldn't generate much power.

Therefore, I am confident that there are some technical reasons or secrets as to how someone can murder a two-handed backhand.

I don't expect to hit it as hard as Soderling but I believe there is a way to be able to hit it in the same neighborhood of a very big forehand, but very few people seem to be able to do this even the vast majority of the pros.

My point is that while I and others seemed to have discovered technical secrets as to how to generate tremendous power on the forehand and one handed BH, very few seem to be able to discover how to do this with a two handed BH. This includes the pros where we can only name a small handful of people who can do this. Obviously, one of the key areas to focus on is how to use leverage which seems to be more easily done on the forehand and one handed BH. But with two hands on the backhand, creating leverage seems to be an ongoing challenge because the two hands conflict with each other and create complications. I even once spoke to Pat Dougherty ("Serve Doctor at IMG) about this and even he, who prides himself on his understanding and application of science to tennis technique, had almost given up on mastering power on the the two handed backhand and at one point started encouraging his players to stick to or move to the one handed backhand.

In my experience, I usually have limited power on the two hander but for 5 to 20 minute periods I find that I am blasting it but then this ability keeps going away. What I'm trying to figure out is what technical tip will enable me to continue to blast this thing at will where the power will not all of a sudden disappear again and again. Obviously, this is not simply a question of "God given racket head speed" because I am the same person who could blast the thing 20 minutes ago.

I'm hoping that someone like Jeff Counts has some insight into this because he seems to pride himself on studying pros and trying to duplicate what they do.

If a two-handed backhand (righty) is like a left-handed forehand (not all two handers use the left side that way), imagine trying to hit your big forehand with the left hand on the handle above your right hand. You would severely limit the body turn and freedom of followthrough of that forehand whether it is a wiper forehand or even one more along the lines of classical over-the-shoulder strokes. One of the obvious impediments to an effective forehand is leaving the left hand in the way of the follow through where it acts like a brake on the stroke. Just as you have to get the left shoulder out of the way to hit a big forehand, you are going to have to have a massive shoulder turn to get the left side through on a two-handed backhand for a really aggressive 2-hander. However, just short of that huge stroke, with 2 hands on the racket, you can generate a lot of power with a relatively short stroke on the two-hander.

In the realm of hitting "big" (not huge) 2-handed backhands, one of the "tricks" is to learn to relax the grip so you allow the racket head to develop some freedom and momentum. Holding on tight simply slows the racket head down. I often have students hit their 2-handers holding the racket with just the thumb and middle finger of each hand to get the free motion they need into the stroke. After a few shots like this, they can usually go back to a full grip but with a much lighter grip and generate a lot more power with less effort. Still, to really explode like a big forehand would take a tremendous shoulder and hip turn.

Curious to hear what you all have to say,
don

[johnyandell]

Yeah my point is that you can see the same technical elements in Soderling's backhand as in other top players.

So if by secret you mean developing good technical elements we agree. And sure you might catch or connect with those watching Soderling as opposed to someone else.

And emphasizing certain elements or feelings or the relaxed grip or whatever, can help various players maximize their potential.

I don't believe in miracle deviations from the norms you see across a range of top athletes.

[oliensis]

I hit a one-hander, so everything I say on this is only from observation and not from experience, but FWIW, here goes.

I had a friend who had a very nice 2-hander, technically, except that his backhand was pretty modest in terms of pace. I watched him in a lesson w/ a pro for about 20 minutes once, and here's what I observed...that what prevented him from having a big backhand was the lack of ACCELERATION of the racket head as it moved into the hitting zone. I had a very clear sense that his 2 hands were operating as one on the racket...but that he would have hit much bigger if the "pivot" on which hinged the the last link in the kinetic chain would have been the spot right between his two hands on the grip.

Bolleteri (sp?) does drills w/ a towel, sort of whipping it...that's all based on acceleration. Imagine snapping a towel if that towel were stiff...it wouldn't snap.

Seems to me that it's the efficient transfer of angular momentum, one link at a time, w/ each link accelerating the subsequent link as it reaches its terminal velocity that creates "sick" power...and finally the expression of that angular acceleration along the tangent of the circle as it collides with the vector along which the ball is traveling.

Most of us have stuck links. Seems to me that those who have sick power have strong legs, good timing, and no (or few) stuck links.

[crass_lawner]

I talked about some of the other technical aspects of the modern 2hbh in my longer post which got eaten by the internet, but basically I agree that you need some flexibility in the wrists to get the whipping action which will give you some additional pace and topspin. I don't think Roddick does this very well and that's one reason his backhand isn't that great.

I also agree that many pros have most of these technical aspects down (Roddick excepted), but I still think that those that have the hardest backhands are the ones who are able to get their body weight into their shots most effectively. I don't think it's any coincidence that the guy with the hardest 2hbh is also the heaviest guy at the top of the game (Nalbandian). I've also heard that he uses an insanely heavy racket. Murray's backhand is great, but he usually uses control and finesse not pace, so he's using his wrists more than his body weight.

[airforce1]

Seems to me that it's the efficient transfer of angular momentum, one link at a time, w/ each link accelerating the subsequent link as it reaches its terminal velocity that creates "sick" power...and finally the expression of that angular acceleration along the tangent of the circle as it collides with the vector along which the ball is traveling.

Most of us have stuck links. Seems to me that those who have sick power have strong legs, good timing, and no (or few) stuck links.

Pretty apt description of how the K-chain works and sort of led me to a Ah-haaaa or a Duhhhh moment, you choose.

Before reading this, I always more or less focused on timing as being the timing of the impact, but thru reading this, it reminded me of the critical timing of each of these important links in the K chain! Not just the final one. Imagine the total power gain if timing is improved on 3-4 links at a mere 5% power gain for each.

Before now, I sort of knew that timing was quite important in creating exceptional power, but slightly at a loss as to how it helped so dramatically.
Timing of each of these links precisely, ratchets up the sum total of power available considerably.

This brought to my awareness of how timing can add sooo much to velocity and also why many of us have the "stuck links" as you say. If you don't yet have the timing for each link, you can stick them to gain consistency, at a cost of power.

On the one hander, the elbow is probably a great example. There is no doubt that keeping the elbow bent, then unloading it into the ball will add velocity to that BH, but can you control it?
It seems that even most pros tend to keep the elbow straight on this shot to trade for control, and generate the req power in other more stable ways.

[oliensis]

I agree w/ Crosslawner that getting weight into the shot is important and that Nalbandian has copious endowment in that regard 8-).

Airforce, I'm very grateful to hear that something I wrote led you to an "aha" moment. That really makes my day. (Gratifying like when you think a joke is really funny and you tell it to a friend and they think it's funny too...but maybe even more so.)

[airforce1]

I agree w/ Crosslawner that getting weight into the shot is important and that Nalbandian has copious endowment in that regard 8-).

Airforce, I'm very grateful to hear that something I wrote led you to an "aha" moment. That really makes my day. (Gratifying like when you think a joke is really funny and you tell it to a friend and they think it's funny too...but maybe even more so.)

Yes, when thinking of timing from now on. I'll have a much greater appreciation for more of what that entails.
thanks