where'd the bent arm come from anyway?

[jperedo]

I know that I should NOT get in a middle of this conversation
but is it possible to provide a link to a video of Hewitt
to make this interesting conversation a bit more specific?
It would allow for a some kind of video definition of a straight arm forehand

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/lleyton_hewitt/lh_forehand/lh_fh_center/lh_fh_center.html?LHFHCenterSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/robin_soderling/rs_forehand/rs_fh_center/rs_fh_center.html?RSFHCenterNeutralStanceSide2.mov

Hewitt extends his arm at the elbow to some extent during the take back. In fact, almost all the men do it including double benders (Djokovic, Roddick, Soderling, Ferrer etc.)
I've never actually observed any videos of any of these guys "shortening" their hitting arm structures into a double bend. The only time "shortening" occurs seems to be near or after contact (however I can't tell if it's a bicep contraction, or simply part of the follow through).

So in a way I can see what CK is saying, in that a player shouldn't "shorten" the arm. However, I don't think "shortening" into a double bend is something Jeff, John or anyone else teaching the double bend have ever advocated in any of their articles.

CK if you could maybe provide a video analysis of a player performing a bad double bend it would help everyone understand what you mean.

[uspta146749877]

Hewitt

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

Mr Counts,
I know that I should NOT get in a middle of this conversation
but is it possible to provide a link to a video of Hewitt
to make this interesting conversation a bit more specific?
It would allow for a some kind of video definition of a straight arm forehand
julian mielniczuk
usptapro 2783

[airforce1]

Easy there

Easy guys,
as he provoked a bunch of interesting FH thoughts and ideas.
We can't all write things the best way the first time.
(I should know right, LOL)

[oliensis]

Jeff,
You haven't lost him. He's provided a moving target, backpedaling away from numerous pronouncements as each is revealed to be what it is: overstated.
Now the "double bend" is only a "real" (bad) double bend if it's tense, cramped, and excessively rigid.
Boioioioi-oing!

And now Gonzo doesnt' hit a (bad) double bend...where previously, when I cited Gonzo, his power was not the "right" kind of power. (Like having the wrong kind of orgasm, as per Woody Allen.)

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

[jeffreycounts]

Jeff, somehow this thread got the wrong impressions going and some added confusion as to what double bends are and straight arm FHs are. What I have always believed to be a double bend is a stroke where at contact the elbow and wrist are still rigid and often shortening, or bending more from the backswing.(see my first posts where I criticize the pulling through of the arm, no whip or extension) Rigid is what I criticize! Everyone got that?

Gonzales does not hit this kind of forehand, neither does Gulbis or any of the other guys that rip their bent arm forehand. they are using extension at the wrist at least and that is something i have never criticized. i stand by my stance that players allowing themselves to bend and shorten the arm to make up for better footwork and better spacing is a shortcoming. i advocate the straight extension arm forehand because it forces players to move better and gives such a consistent contact point, not to mention that lack of having to be able adjust to so many more varying contact points...which leads to my belief that the extended straight arm forehand will make more people better and faster.

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

Do you consider Hewitt the good or bad double bend?

I'm certainly happy to let it die, but I will remind you that you started the thread with this pronouncement:

"Has anyone ever asked why tennis players, coaches, and teaching pros think a bent arm is a rational way to hit a tennis ball?"

Now you are saying a bent arm is fine, as long as it involves wrist extension (not sure what that means). I have pretty much lost you completely so time to move on...

[airforce1]

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

Don't agree with the letting it die part, but like what you are saying about us being closer than we realize.
I understand that it seems to be painfully slow at times, but more and more info gets leaked as this discussion evolves. I may even know what he is calling a FH2 now. I do really enjoying hearing the perspectives on the FH though.

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

Jeff, somehow this thread got the wrong impressions going and some added confusion as to what double bends are and straight arm FHs are. What I have always believed to be a double bend is a stroke where at contact the elbow and wrist are still rigid and often shortening, or bending more from the backswing.(see my first posts where I criticize the pulling through of the arm, no whip or extension) Rigid is what I criticize! Everyone got that?

Gonzales does not hit this kind of forehand, neither does Gulbis or any of the other guys that rip their bent arm forehand. they are using extension at the wrist at least and that is something i have never criticized. i stand by my stance that players allowing themselves to bend and shorten the arm to make up for better footwork and better spacing is a shortcoming. i advocate the straight extension arm forehand because it forces players to move better and gives such a consistent contact point, not to mention that lack of having to be able adjust to so many more varying contact points...which leads to my belief that the extended straight arm forehand will make more people better and faster.

maybe we should let this thread die because most of us that are studying the game are probably much closer than we realize in our beliefs and what we advocate.

[oliensis]

That's hilarious. I never fought the idea that there were 2 FH techniques. (Billie Jean King said she hit the ball 19 different ways. Her biggest problem was figuring out when to hit it which way.) My only problem w/ your posts was a)your inability or unwillingness to define your #1 & #2 tecniques. b) some presumptuousness in your attitude that you had unlocked the secrets of the universe that nobody else had access to.

[QUOTE=nabrug;9416]

I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

QUOTE]

So why are you fighting the idea that there might be 2 FH techniques so vigourisly?

[nabrug]

[QUOTE=oliensis;9411] I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

QUOTE]

So why are you fighting the idea that there might be 2 FH techniques so vigourisly?

[nabrug]

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

My post has been deleted. I wonder why. It only said that I am in your camp on this one. Because I think FH1 (sorry 10splayer) produces the flattest and there for the fastest strokes. That was all. FOR US ALL.

[oliensis]

Apropos of whether a double bend or straight-arm forehand is "better", I'd like to share something from my personal experience.

My wife was a ballet dancer. Had a scholarship to Joffrey when young. Danced w/ Fort Worth Ballet...she grew up in St. Louis, living there through high school.

I, on the other hand (as I've mentioned before) studied at least 4 different martial arts between ages 19 & 35. I grew up in New Jersey, Uganda (Africa), and Milwaukee. Lived all 3 places by the time I was 6 yrs old. As a consequence of my itinerent childhood, I learned 3 different variations of the ABC song (including calling "Z," "Zed.")

My wife, the St. Louisan ballet dancer insists that all versions of the ABC song save the one she learned are WRONG.

She also believes that people should walk around with their tummies tight and tucked in, as ballet dancers do. By contrast I have learned Indian, Chinese, and Korean breathing techniques, some of which involve allowing your belly to hang very loose, encouraging a more rounded physical appearance when standing. (Others of which actually involve sucking in the gut while inhaling and pushing it out while exhaling--it's called "reverse breathing.")

My wife, the tight-tummied St. Louisan ballet dancing one-way-ABC-singer is a purist. I, a New Jersey-an, African, Milwaukeean (Jewish) student of Chinese, Indian, and Korean martial arts who learned the ABCs 3 different ways, am more of an eclectic.

Maybe...just maybe...there's more than one way to skin a cat...or sing the ABCs...or hit a forehand...and hit it extremely well...and efficiently.

On positive note, all this thinking/jabbering about the forehand...and today when I hit for an hour w/ a friend, I was ripping the ball consistently and wickedly...better than ever.

Footwork and spacing, baby...we can certainly all agree that these things are good.

[uspta146749877]

Bethany

Hey, you didn't tell us she got married and changed her name. . . (watching her match on ESPN2)

Kevin

What do you think about the match?

[nabrug]

This post has been deleted for violation of forum guidelines.

[jeffreycounts]

Which people Jeff? You mean carrerakent?

Nobody in particular. I have heard a select few say negative things about the double bend, not just carrerakent. He definitely has people in his camp.

I just find 10splayer observation to be right on. When you watch Fernando Gonzalez ripping the cover off the ball in person, it is hard to believe that the double bend is some sort of inferior, biomechanically weak technique.

Love it!

I was watching a doubles match last week in DC with Gonzalez and Robredo playing. Gonzalez pounded a forehand right into the opponent's chest that left a ball mark on his skin. He showed it to the crowd after the match.

It is amusing to me as well when people denigrate the double bend because the double bend is actually the underlying foundation for some of the biggest and best forehands of all time.

And the underlying foundation for definitely the worst forehands of all time. Don't forget those!