Question For The Teaching Pros???

[llll]

john and all the contributors provide us with beautiful high def videos and analysis of how the game is played at the highest level.
so when a student comes you can accurately see what he is doing "wrong"
but how do you get the student to DO IT????
for example i have taken many lessons. i have had my strokes analysed by video by several pros. they all can point out how my video differs from the pros
bh slice example "you come across the ball too much" or you open up too soon or the ball is too close to you"
but no one has yet got me to correct it completely
how do you get the student to DO IT?? to FEEL IT????

[gzhpcu]

Haven't you read John's book "Visual Tennis"? Just keep looking at the videos and work on the visual images. Just like when you watch a good match on TV: don't you feel you play better afterwards?

[kakashi]

That is great question

that is great question...

to me key is the result..if you are not producing the result then instructor isn't doing a good job too well...

I do not know whether my advice will help or not, but you can try...

1) stat with simplicity.. i like catching the ball.. or make racket without string and put a net on racket so you can catch the ball...

2) I will stop-- check point.. i won't go for big followthough...

3) do slowly and make sure get lots of feel...

4) do lots of practice.. without practice you won't get anything...
Not to be tough, but lesson really won't make you better.. you have to practice..

[tennis_chiro]

It's not easy

john and all the contributors provide us with beautiful high def videos and analysis of how the game is played at the highest level.
so when a student comes you can accurately see what he is doing "wrong"
but how do you get the student to DO IT????
for example i have taken many lessons. i have had my strokes analysed by video by several pros. they all can point out how my video differs from the pros
bh slice example "you come across the ball too much" or you open up too soon or the ball is too close to you"
but no one has yet got me to correct it completely
how do you get the student to DO IT?? to FEEL IT????

Phil is right. The video resources on this site and elsewhere are terrific tools. But it is almost never easy to convert a concept into a usable, reliable stroke.

Some people learn primarily from visual pathways. They need to see a video or demonstration of what it is that they are supposed to do. Video replay of their own strokes is helpful, but almost no one has accurate kinesthetic imaging of what they are doing: that is they can have a very clear idea of what they are supposed to do, but upon trying to execute that movement they do something that is invariably very different. Repeated video replay and analysis will help them get over this. Occasionally, really rarely, you get a student who is a natural mimic. Angela Kulikov was a little like that. I could show her something and she could do it almost immediately. Unfortunately, someone else would show her something else and she could do that too!

Other people are very verbal. They need to see or hear and digest a very detailed description of what they need to do. In my experience, these people take a little longer to digest the information and they may leave you thinking they didn't have any idea what you were talking about only to come back at the next lesson after a little time and practice having really absorbed what you wanted them to learn. Danielle Lao was like that. Once she understood what she was supposed to do, she could produce the motion in short order. Most people can only do one new thing at a time and when you are trying to learn complex movements. It's an iterative process. You focus on a new item and some other new habit you are trying to build will probably suffer. Your job as the coach is to prioritize what the student is working on at any given time. It will take a lot of time before all the new habits get strong enough to hold together, especially in competition and under pressure.

Still other people don't want to see videos or hear your explanations. They just have to "experience" the challenge and they will find a way to do the task on their own terms. Certainly, you can give them some guidance, but they just kind of have to work their own way through the problem. You can give little hints, but the best thing you can provide these people is encouragement and patience and perspective.

It is almost never easy to learn tennis strokes (despite what MTM might say). It takes a lot of time and repetition. That doesn't mean it can't be fun and positive for the student right from the start. And this game is very individualistic. This site gives you a very good idea of which parts of the good strokes are "universalities", that is almost everyone has those elements in their strokes. Even then, there are versions to most of those. I think there are easier and more efficient ways to hit the strokes, but if someone comes to me with any habits at all, I have to get my ideas out of the way a little bit and help them to optimize what they are already doing. It's very hard to get the "genie back in the bottle" once they have started to put their personality into their shots and developed some intial habits. Sometimes you have to, but you have to find out if the student is really willing to do the work to change a previous habit. It's one thing to improve what someone is doing. It is entirely another to say "Hold it. We have to change that." (i.e. grips, service rhythms). It takes a lot of reps to make new habits. Many more than just to learn a new motion without having to change an old one.

One of my students gave me a book, "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. It is a wonderful book. It tells the story of many exceptional people and what it took for them to become exceptional ... outliers. The short hand version is that it's all about the 10,000 hour rule. You don't achieve exceptionalism without a lot of time and focused hard work. One point of the book is that that is not usually enough. It takes a little luck, or focus and coaching, or ability in addition to the work. I think "Outliers" is must reading for anyone trying to help people be their best, or to be their best themselves.

So try to find a little patience. Use multiple tools to get good ideas. Get guidance from someone who has a little more experience than you do. And relish the little bits of progress you get as you teach your students. I tell prospective students that I will work with players at any level, as long as they are willing to learn and put in the time to practice what I am showing them. Doesn't sound like much, but so many want to just show up for their lessons and they hope to get better without much practice. But it you get that student who will really takes what you give him and goes away and works on it and comes back wanting more at the next lesson, it is a great journey.

don

[llll]

Haven't you read John's book "Visual Tennis"? Just keep looking at the videos and work on the visual images. Just like when you watch a good match on TV: don't you feel you play better afterwards?

phil, i have read visual tennis but i would recommend people join tennisplayer.net
no disrespect to john but static photos can sometimes be misleading and are not as good for visualization as seeing the real thing in video.jmho
yes i feel i do play better after watching a match becaise of the subliminal visualization
phil lets use you as an example
you have taken lessons
you are student of the game
you could probably teach tennis with you knowledge
yet you still dont look like a pro in the strokes you have cared to share with us.
no offense meant, yes your strokes look "skilled"
you are not a hacker
but you dont get into all the positions in spite of your knowledge and lessons and practice.
why dont you have "the look"
what can be done to get you to "the look"
i used you for this example but im really talking about myself
my strokes are 4.0 towards 4.5 why arent they 5.0-5.5 by now??(playing almost 10 years,age 57)

[gzhpcu]

Maybe because I am 65 Larry?

Ah, if I were only younger....

(Started playing at the age of 10....)

[tennis_chiro]

Never

Maybe because I am 65 Larry?

Ah, if I were only younger....

Phil,

NEVER GIVE IN!

don

[stotty]

Spotting flaws is the easier side of coaching; correcting them is a whole different problem and a lot harder.

I think a coach can only do so much. He can highlight flaws, show you the correct way, use teaching aids and teaching skills to get you doing things correctly. After this your on your own to a certain extent. A coach can't step inside your body and hit the stroke for you. And its for certain any coach won't hit, say, a forehand as well as Federer or be able to teach himself to. We are all confined by our level of natural ability, athleticism, etc.

There is no doubt, however, that some coaches are far better than others, and that the general public is a very bad judge of a good tennis coach (they usually go for personality instead). Select your coach wisely. Pay more if you have to.

One other point: Sometimes the best coach is yourself. Watch the pros,learn by osmosis. Pancho Gonzales learnt a lot of his tennis from watching others, and he was an all time great. Realize your own limitations and do what feels right and best works for you. Coaching can do wonders but don't rely on it, or become too dependent on it...use your own judgement too.

[gzhpcu]

Also, there is another aspect: natural talent, ability, physical make-up. We are all different. A Pancho Gonzalez or Roger Federer are naturals. Not too many of us are. Most of us try to do the best with what we have, and have to work at it more than others, yet are still limited in how much we can improve by our physical characteristics.

[llll]

Also, there is another aspect: natural talent, ability, physical make-up. We are all different. A Pancho Gonzalez or Roger Federer are naturals. Not too many of us are. Most of us try to do the best with what we have, and have to work at it more than others, yet are still limited in how much we can improve by our physical characteristics.

phil from all our other interactions in posts from various websites
i hope you know that i respect you alot for your knowledge and enthusasim and passion for tennis
i do beleive that natural talent has something to do with it
a quick story
mardy fish lived in vero beach fl. for a long time as a child growing up. he started a charity foundation and for the past 5 years has done a yearly exhibition with him and other pros. this year was
mardy,ivan lendl (who also live in vero),and the bryan bros.
well one year
james blake and his brother tom and the bryan bos participated
during one pro -am portion i was standing next to tom blake while watching some amateurs hit the ball
i said to him
"do you remember when you looked like that?"
he said to me definitely not in an arrogant way
"i never looked like that"

my point being for the great ones the get into the right positions naturally
but if its not natural are you doomed???
thats part of this thread
how do you get someone to DO IT??( not just tell them whats wrong)
is it possible??

[gzhpcu]

Larry,
You get the same respect from me. You got me on to the "pointing the chest" at the ball during the serve, which really helped me.

I am of the opinon, that not all persons are equally coordinated: I have seen bunch of kids getting lessons, all beginners, and you immediately see those who have an innate elegance and sense of the ball, and those that seem totally uncoordinated. The gifted kids don't have to think so much about their strokes, they just do it, the less gifted kids can improve through hard work, but still will never seem so elegant.

I have watched a tennis pro teaching adults for years, and the adults hardly ever improve, if they looked awkward to begin with.

It is not a question of being "doomed". It is a question of getting the best out of what you are physically equipped with. Just like cars: With tuning, you can improve the performance of most cars, but, you still will not end up with a Ferrari....

If this weren't so, and if, despite our physical limitations, there were a magic teaching method, it would have been found by now, we would all be Roger Federers or Rafa Nadals... Maybe we will have to wait till 2070, when we will all be equipped with a chip interface and be able to upload our tennis strokes!

Just my opinion... (I am one of those who is not particularly gifted, and has had to work hard....)

[llll]

^^^^ i agree.
i sent you a pm with a little more detail

[johnyandell]

Guys,

For what it's worth, here is my take on all of this. Visual Tennis is partially about certain technical ideas. But it is also about the process of translating technical ideas into actual shots hit in matches.

So someday I will update what I think about the technical shapes that should be taught to whom, when.

But the rest of the book--how to get the technical idea into actual tennis I think holds up.

This is that to really change something you have to have a mental image and also a kinesthetic image of the the key parts of the stroke. You have to see and feel what it looks like inside your mind. And you have to do that to activate the motion on the court.

Top players I think do this naturally. Why would they want to understand or explain technique if that doesn't help them hit the ball when they play? Understanding and explaining are not the same as playing.

But I think we can all work systematically to develop this same ability. And it can become at least natural and subconscious at times. The ability to visual or imagine positive images of technique is the magic bridge.