Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why Is Nadal's Forehand By Far the Heaviest?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why Is Nadal's Forehand By Far the Heaviest?

    While I appreciate Chris Lewitt’s article on the “Spanish Forehand” I would really appreciate it if some of the many great minds on this board could help me figure out what I think is a much more compelling question.

    The more compelling question is what is it about Nadal’s forehand technique that makes his forehand way heavier than every other player in the history of the world. We can talk all day about the “Spanish Forehand” but no other Spaniard, or player from any country for that matter, can hit a forehand anywhere near as heavy as Nadal’s. Fernando Verdasco, the other Spanish southpaw, is probably the player that comes the closest but he seems to use his forehand as more of a power shot, not a heavy ball that causes problems and his spin is not in Nadal’s league. Even Nadal’s regular “rally ball” wreaks so much havoc that the other pro players, including the “great” Federer, regularly miss it or experience extreme discomfort trying to return it! So, the question is what does Nadal do technically that no one else does?

    In the course of my quest to figure this out, I came across a discussion in Jon Wertheim’s recently published book about Nadal and Federer entitled Strokes of Genius. On page 119 appears a description from the architect of this stroke, Rafa’s Uncle Toni Nadal. The passage reads:

    “…Nadal’s game is the opposite of alien; it’s homemade and meticulously handcrafted. If you break down the many unconventional components of Nadal’s strokes, Toni has an explanation for them all. Nadal’s extreme western grip, with its hand almost perpendicular to the strings, nearly covering the butt of the racket handle? From his days as a Ping-Pong champ, Toni recognized the massive spin power you could create with this grip and transferred it to tennis. Nadal’s elaborate follow-through that enables him to finish his strokes with the racket nearly brushing his skull? Since Rafael usually played opponents who were older and taller, he needed to hit high-bouncing, spin-slathered shots that offset any height advantage.”

    I would appreciate if the bright people on this site would assist me in analyzing this question. It would be additionally helpful if any of you who are knowledgeable about table tennis have any insight into whether Uncle Toni is making any sense in his statement that he learned to generate massive spin using this ping-pong grip and technique.

  • #2
    I put my views together in a two part article in the Advanced Tennis section. Still I would like to understand more than I addressed there about the actual racket path and the speed of the racket, but those answer are in quantified world. Hopefully we will get Brian on the show courts somewhere to take the analysis up.

    There is an assumption in this post that mirrors the debate we had about the serve. Can anyone with the right technique hit a world class Nadal forehand if they just figure out the secret?

    Again, I think part of this is just Rafael. Not everyone can throw a 95mph fastball no matter how good their pitching mechanics. You could copy his motion perfectly but if you couldn't move your racket through that motion at the same speed as Rafa you'd have a heavy forehand but a lesser version.

    Still I think that the interesting factor that I would like to know more about is the actual speed and steepness of the swing plane and how that may relate to that extreme over the head bolo reverse finish. Related to that as I've said before is what is the sidespin component and especially as a lefty what viciousness is that helping create after the bounce?

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi John. As always I appreciate your help and contributions. I will look again at your article. I do recall that you made some interesting observations. I do agree with your speculation that the steepness of the swing plane is probably a factor as Vic Braden has always pointed out in his studies about topspin.

      However, I don't think all of your analogies are completely on point.

      You ask: "Can anyone with the right technique hit a world class Nadal forehand if they just figure out the secret?"

      Probably not "anyone" but I am talking about just "anyone," I am talking about EVERYONE IN THE WORLD and ALL of the other PROFESSIONAL tennis players. These are ALSO world class athletes. I don't think that most people believe that Nadal is that much stronger or that much better of an athlete than Verdasco, Gonzales, Roddick, Tsonga, Monfils, Federer, Dolgopolov JR, Djokovich and Blake. In fact, I think many would argue that several of these players are actually STRONGER or BETTER athletes than Nadal. So, the question is whether any of these players could hit a "world class Nadal forehand" if they figure out and use the right technique. I believe that most reasonable people would answer "YES" with both hands.

      You also use a baseball pitching analogy. You write: "Again, I think part of this is just Rafael. Not everyone can throw a 95mph fastball no matter how good their pitching mechanics." That may be generally true true but there are several problems with this analogy. First of all, what makes the Nadal heavy ball situation so unique is that NOBODY can even get CLOSE to him. In contrast, there are numerous professional baseball players who can throw a 95 mph fastball. If there was one pitcher who existed who could throw a 120 mph fastball and the closest person in the history of the world could only throw it 95 mph only then would this be a good analogy. If there were several other players who could hit close to Nadal in heaviness then I wouldn't even be asking this question. What makes this question compelling is why is NOBODY else is even CLOSE to him.

      Finally, you often seem to focus on "racket head speed" as the likely source of pro spin or power but there are more important things than that such as leverage. It is not that difficult to move a racket through the air very rapidly. I am willing to bet that even an ordinary person like myself can move my racket through the air as fast as Nadal is moving his racket through the air on his forehand but I won't generate that massive spin for technical reasons that have very little to do with the "speed" of my racket as Jeff Counts has astutely pointed out in much of his work.

      Thanks for your efforts and I also look forward to Brian Gordon's comments and analysis, but I reinstate my original question and hope others can also help me.

      Thanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        There really isn't such a thing as "leverage" when it comes to tennis--it's all about the speed and direction of the racket. And as I said, the parts of Nadal's swing that we know less about may be key in some way and sure maybe there are other top players who conceivably could do the same. Can you do it yourself? Uh, sure if you say so.

        Seriously though I tend to agree Nadal's forehand may be different in terms of his ball, but that still may still be something in his physicality--it's not something we can easily test or quantify.

        But I think we should just agree to disagree on this one as it already appears to be developing into another back and forth restating the same opinions.

        Comment


        • #5
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Nadal comes about as close to putting ping pong type spin on the FH as probably possible. Some commentators have pointed out that his down the line FH's are most of the time hooking back into the court, and his crosscourt FH's are hooking off the court. He really uses his hook topspin to move and control the ball. It appears to me that all of his hook FH's are with his signature reverse/over the head finish. When he finishes across his body, he seems to produce more of a traditional heavy topspin without the hook. I guess this would indicate that when he attacks the outside of the ball for the hook spin, this produces his over the head signature finish.

          I have seen other pro men produce this hook type FH, almost always when they are striking a running FH, usually down the line. Nadal just uses it all the time to move players around.

          I saw an Olympic champion ping pong champion playing a match on ESPN one day when I was channel surfing and it was eerie how his FH mimiced Nadal's. The ping pong champion clearly attacked the outside of the ball and produced a hooking topspin on all his FH's. He even hit it with a straight arm like Nadal. Of course, his grip structure was completely different, he was using a traditional ping pong grip, a continental by tennis standards, but the way he attacked be ball was something to see.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not convinced Nadal has the heaviest forehand in history. Who determines that? It's spinny and awkward to deal with, yes, but some players seem to hit bigger. I watched the Nadal v Federer epic Wimbledon 5 set final live a few years ago and found Nadal didn't hit his F/H as hard as I thought. He always seemed to be hitting harder when I'd watched him on TV. I found Fed was hitting harder in that final and was more devastating in the mid-court.

            Don't Soderling and Del Potro hit harder and heavier than Nadal? I've never seen either of them live but they seem to from watching them on TV?

            I feel Nadal's forehand is amongst the best in history for a number of reasons. But on bad days (not that he has many) it can....(dare I say this)... be a weakness when he isn't finding a length and it plops short.
            Last edited by stotty; 01-01-2011, 11:24 AM.
            Stotty

            Comment


            • #7
              Handcrafting it? I say B.S. to Tony's claim. You don't teach that kind of action, but rather it evolves, as a result,(imo) of a kid trying to create as much topspin as possible. He probably figured out, this was his best way to compete at a world class level, at such a young age. Further, I would agree with those that implied that the effectiveness of the shot, has alot more to do with Rafa's physical skills, tenacity and willingness to destroy his joints (long term) for a tennis career.

              I would submit to you, that the Fed forehand is much more revolutionary, with the Eastern grip (really weak) and all the advantages associtated with it, and the straight arm delivery. Cool combination. He has been smokin balls injury free for years, and will probably be able to lift his arms above his shoulder when he is 50.
              Last edited by 10splayer; 01-01-2011, 12:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                You can't ignore results

                Seems to me that if you berate Rafa's technique your ignoring his results. You can't win majors on 4 different surfaces with athleticism alone. Sampras was a great athlete but he also had great technique. To be in the top ten you really need both. As I study the Rafa swing in the stroke archive it doesn't look as radical as it does in real time. He hits through the ball much more than I thought he did. Maybe thats the trick, he's the only guy with a big western grip who also gets through the ball. He also uses a bigger racquet than most of the top 10 pros and this gives him more of a trampoline effect. Another thing I noticed is that his hand is extremely laid off as he starts the forward swing, so the buggy whip effect is greater than what the other players are able to acheive.

                Comment


                • #9
                  nadals reverses are not the same as classical reverse finish's. Almost looks like a slingshot.

                  I would say its a combination of technique and strength

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sergi Bruguera with wood

                    Didn't Sergi Bruguera generate about 80-90% of Nadal's topspin, but with a wood racquet? I remember Bruguera at the French Open regularly hitting groundstrokes that landed at the service line, and jumped back to the baseline. Players beat themselves trying to attack it.

                    Nadal does an extraordinary job of maximizing the spin contemporary racquets and strings can generate; but I'm not convinced his stroke is unique, if you isolate the equipment.

                    Interestingly, much as Nadal presents a matchup problem for Fed, Bruguera had a winning record against Sampras. Coincidence?

                    It was interesting hearing Marat Safin's reaction after playing Nadal for the first time, near the end of Safin's career. Safin didn't mention the spin only, looking puzzled: "I was surprised how slow his shots were."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jimlosaltos View Post
                      Didn't Sergi Bruguera generate about 80-90% of Nadal's topspin, but with a wood racquet? I remember Bruguera at the French Open regularly hitting groundstrokes that landed at the service line, and jumped back to the baseline. Players beat themselves trying to attack it.

                      Nadal does an extraordinary job of maximizing the spin contemporary racquets and strings can generate; but I'm not convinced his stroke is unique, if you isolate the equipment.

                      Interestingly, much as Nadal presents a matchup problem for Fed, Bruguera had a winning record against Sampras. Coincidence?

                      It was interesting hearing Marat Safin's reaction after playing Nadal for the first time, near the end of Safin's career. Safin didn't mention the spin only, looking puzzled: "I was surprised how slow his shots were."
                      It doesn't look slow when he gets his opening. And the speeds on shotspot have been pretty high. It would have been great to see the Safin that dismantled Sampras in the US Open final play today's Nadal.
                      don

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nadal speed

                        Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
                        It doesn't look slow when he gets his opening. And the speeds on shotspot have been pretty high. It would have been great to see the Safin that dismantled Sampras in the US Open final play today's Nadal.
                        don
                        Agree on prime-time-Safin v.s. Nadal. That would have been hot. Closest equivalent today is Nadal v.s. delPotro or maybe Gulbis.

                        Let me expand (or correct the impression of) my own posting. Nadal can certainly blast forehands; I've seen him hit 108 MPH on an inside out ball, at BNP Indian Wells last year, the only time I've seen him play in person. And some of his backhand passes are up there as well.

                        But the forehand we most commonly associate with his game, and what sets him apart, only goes about 70-75 MPH (only is relative) but with tremendous spin. It's basically a kick second serve -- over and over.

                        I wasn't implying that Nadal can't or doesn't hit hard; my point is merely that Nadal's standard forehand is actually slower than most, and that it's a lot like what Bruguera hit decades ago (at least in my vague memory), not some new invention, IMHO anyway.

                        Of course, Nadal backs it up with far more foot speed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jimlosaltos View Post
                          But the forehand we most commonly associate with his game, and what sets him apart, only goes about 70-75 MPH (only is relative) but with tremendous spin. It's basically a kick second serve -- over and over.

                          I wasn't implying that Nadal can't or doesn't hit hard; my point is merely that Nadal's standard forehand is actually slower than most, and that it's a lot like what Bruguera hit decades ago (at least in my vague memory), not some new invention, IMHO anyway.
                          You're dead right! I've seen Nadal live a number of times and most of the time he doesn't hit that hard. He works the ball more than anyone and it's the spin he creates that makes the shot so difficult for others to play. There are a number of bigger, heavier hitters on the tour, at least for me anyways.

                          Nadal can belt forehands at an incredible pace but doesn't do it that often. I find him guilty of playing within himself at times and doing just what he has to. He has to be forced to play his best.

                          At the top of his game, Nadal is the greatest player ever. I think the best is yet to come too.
                          Stotty

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For Jimlosaltos

                            Dear Sir,
                            I noticed your question about tennis balls in a different section of this forum.
                            I took liberty to respond
                            Please see


                            subchapter 3.2
                            by clicking a link by a mouse.
                            you may find there very simple remarks about a Wilson Rally 2 ball.
                            I was able to read and print a paper mentioned above.
                            If you have any problems with an access please let me know

                            julian mielniczuk Ph.D. uspta certified pro juliantennis@comcast.net
                            www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA
                            Last edited by julian1; 01-05-2011, 11:59 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Safin no match for Rafa

                              [It was interesting hearing Marat Safin's reaction after playing Nadal for the first time, near the end of Safin's career. Safin didn't mention the spin only, looking puzzled: "I was surprised how slow his shots were."[/QUOTE]

                              Based on this and other posts in this thread I would have thought Safin had the answer for Rafa's style of play but I looked it up and I guess Marat wasn't much of a change up hitter as he went down to Rafa 7-6, 6-0 in Montreal in 07 and 6-3, 6-1 in Beijing in 09.

                              Comment

                              Who's Online

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 8734 users online. 4 members and 8730 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 31,715 at 05:06 AM on 03-05-2024.

                              Working...
                              X