Soderling's Forehand...backswing dilemma

[stotty]

Soderling has a massive forehand and a huge backswing to go with it. I get confused with tennis sometimes. I've spent years teaching kids to keep their backswing on the right-hand side of their body (for right-handers obviously) for forehands. Soderling's backswing is so big the racket clearly (at the end of the backswing) on his left side. I mean the whole racket head appears sometimes! You get undermined as a coach when kids spot these age-old fundamentals being broken.

There are probably other pro's that do it....I'll pop into the archives to take a look in the next day or two.

I just wondered how other coaches on the forum teach the forehand backswing, and how much backswing should you allow?

[julian1]

A related article

Soderling has a massive forehand and a huge backswing to go with it. I get confused with tennis sometimes. I've spent years teaching kids to keep their backswing on the right-hand side of their body (for right-handers obviously) for forehands. Soderling's backswing is so big the racket clearly (at the end of the backswing) on his left side. I mean the whole racket head appears sometimes! You get undermined as a coach when kids spot these age-old fundamentals being broken.

There are probably other pro's that do it....I'll pop into the archives to take a look in the next day or two.

I just wondered how other coaches on the forum teach the forehand backswing, and how much backswing should you allow?

You may find

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/jason_frausto/menversuswomenFH/menversuswomenFH.html

related to your question above

julian mielniczuk uspta certified pro juliantennis@comcast.net
www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com Courtside Tennis Club,Bedford,MA

[tennis_chiro]

One-eyed man rules

You may find

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/jason_frausto/menversuswomenFH/menversuswomenFH.html

related to your question above

I forgot what a good article that was by Justin. Excellent. And you can go through every one of the videos in the Stroke Archive for women and Justine is clearly apart from the rest. But here was a diminutive little lady who overpowered her much bigger opponents winning multiple majors and holding the number one ranking on and off for a number of years. She was the dominant player on clay and not because she pushed the ball back.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king! As Justin points out, you can't get upset when your students gravitate back to the stroke demonstrated by Sharapova, Clijsters, Wozniaki et al, but I'm still going to try to teach the girls that basic Agassi (and now Henin) model with a little more of a nod to the wiper as they progress.

don

[stotty]

Thanks Julian and Don! Staggeringly good article by Justin I thought...I learnt a lot reading that. I think I will continue to encourage swings that stay on the right side of the body in both boys and girls. The bigger swings, where the backswing strays way over to the left side, definitely have power, but I've yet to see a junior in my neck of the woods be consistent with this type of swing.

I teach a lot of mini tennis to kids aged 9 and under. The lower pressure balls and smaller court have helped reduce kids' forehand swing sizes. In the old days on a full court, using normal balls, kids aged 6 or 7 used to develop massive swings in an attempt to hit the ball with any power. Mini tennis has gone some way to reducing this problem...if it is a problem or ever was...seems Sharapova and Soderling take great advantage from it. I mean, who hits harder!?

Did I read somewhere on this website: "Players innovate, coaches follow"...could be some truth in that.

[10splayer]

Right side of the body kinda guy here too. A much more direct swing line, and convinced the wiper is enhanced because of the later, external rotation of the upper arm and forearm. Much more balistic effect, IMO>

[stotty]

Justin's article was interesting, and you seem to get gender crossovers in terms of forehand technique. Henin adopts a male technique. But Cilic seems to have a feminine trait in the early part of his swing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpLkJjg0kKk&feature=related

[10splayer]

Justin's article was interesting, and you seem to get gender crossovers in terms of forehand technique. Henin adopts a male technique. But Cilic seems to have a feminine trait in the early part of his swing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpLkJ...eature=related

Indeed, Maria and Cilic look very, very similar at the point the hands separate. Both have the wrist extended and the tip of the racquet angled up and slightly back. (off plane shaft angle) From this point, however, they deviate, and represent the major difference between the WTA and ATP forehand. Which is a neutral wrist position. (Which I think Jason mentions)

As the hands separate, Maria keeps the wrist extended, and retracts the hitting arm to find "length" in the backswing. But the hitting arm structure is pretty much "set up" as soon as the hands separate. (extended wrist, arm rotated externally)

Cilic, does something very different as the hands separate. At 0:28 the wrist starts to "straighten out" or find a more neutral position as he begins to lay the racquet down. This helps keep it to the hitting side, and delays the wrist extension and external rotation of the arm until later in the swing. Which is the defining difference between the two forehand models in my opinion. The women, extend the wrist and set up the hitting arm structure almost immediately, and the men keep the wrist neutral and delay the wrist extension and external rotation of the hitting arm. Many suspect this increases the balistic effect of the wiper action. Just my 02 cents.

[stroke]

Indeed, Maria and Cilic look very, very similar at the point the hands separate. Both have the wrist extended and the tip of the racquet angles up and slightly back. (off plane shaft angle) From this point, however, they deviate, and represent the major difference between the WTA and ATP forehand. Which is a neutral wrist position. (Which I think Jason mentions)

As the hands separate, Maria keeps the wrist extended, and retracts the hitting arm to find "length" in the backswing. But the hitting arm structure is pretty much "set up" as soon as the hands separate. (extended wrist, arm rotated externally)

Cilic, does something very different as the hands separate. At 0:28 the wrist starts to "straighten out" or find a more neutral position as he begins to lay the racquet down. This helps keep it to the hitting side, and delays the wrist extension and external rotation of the arm until later in the swing. Which is the defining difference between the two forehand models in my opinion. The women, extend the wrist and set up the hitting arm structure almost immediately, and the men keep the wrist neutral and delay the wrist extension and external rotation of the hitting arm. Many suspect this increases the balistic effect of the wiper action. Just my 02 cents.

I think this evalauation of Cilic vs Maria, and the key difference in men's and most women's FH, is spot on. Justine did have a beautiful men's type FH. So does Stosar. An extreme example of this kind of FH is Querry, and of course, Roger.

[stotty]

I think the evaluation between Cilic and Maria is interesting. It is interesting also that men can also adopt small traits of what is essentially female technique with no ill effects. Cilic's initial part of the backswing is definitely female.

Interesting, also, is why are there such differences between the sexes? One assumes it's a strength thing. Yet a small woman (though pound-for-pound she is no doubt very strong) like Henin can adopt a male shape to her forehand without a problem and to good effect.

I couldn't find any Steffi Graf in the archive but my visual memory of her F/H (as I play her shot in my mind) is that it was male in technique and shape. Am I right?

[stroke]

I think the evaluation between Cilic and Maria is interesting. It is interesting also that men can also adopt small traits of what is essentially female technique with no ill effects. Cilic's initial part of the backswing is definitely female.

Interesting, also, is why are there such differences between the sexes? One assumes it's a strength thing. Yet a small woman (though pound-for-pound she is no doubt very strong) like Henin can adopt a male shape to her forehand without a problem and to good effect.

I couldn't find any Steffi Graf in the archive but my visual memory of her F/H (as I play her shot in my mind) is that it was male in technique and shape. Am I right?

I don't believe Steffi's FH, as I remember it, has this quality of "delayed external rotation" that 10spalyer was describing. At one time this type of FH motion was refered to as stretch shortening cycle type FH. To me, very good examples of this type of FH are players that can take the ball early on groundstrokes with a full type swing, such as Agassi and Roger. Agassi and Rios were 2 of the first ones I can remember with this type of FH. McEnroe took the ball very early also(still does) but he does it with his continental/almost volley type groundstrokes, which is certainly different than what Roger does.

[stotty]

I found a few clips of Steffi and would now agree her forehand seems female in technique. It's not that easy to tell with the clips I watched because she prepares late, making her swing so quick and hard to view....it all happens so quick. I'd like to see her FH in slowmo to see quite what is going on.

[julian1]

Rick macci

Thanks Julian and Don! Staggeringly good article by Justin I thought...I learnt a lot reading that. I think I will continue to encourage swings that stay on the right side of the body in both boys and girls. The bigger swings, where the backswing strays way over to the left side, definitely have power, but I've yet to see a junior in my neck of the woods be consistent with this type of swing.

I teach a lot of mini tennis to kids aged 9 and under. The lower pressure balls and smaller court have helped reduce kids' forehand swing sizes. In the old days on a full court, using normal balls, kids aged 6 or 7 used to develop massive swings in an attempt to hit the ball with any power. Mini tennis has gone some way to reducing this problem...if it is a problem or ever was...seems Sharapova and Soderling take great advantage from it. I mean, who hits harder!?

Did I read somewhere on this website: "Players innovate, coaches follow"...could be some truth in that.

I assume you know

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/rick_macci/rick_macci_capriati_groundstrokes/rick_macci_capriati_groundstrokes.html

[stotty]

Julian

Thanks for the link, Julian. A lot of the article wasn't knew to me. But within it there is a relevant point to my original dilemma in the thread: If you're going to have a big swing like Sharapova, Capriati and Soderling, then early preparation maybe a key factor in being successful. All three players prepare in good time; seems to assist the shot a lot. I don't like overly big swings but in future with players that insist on keeping a big backswing, I will encourage earlier prep. than a traditional FH stroke.

Interesting, too, was the strong advice for girls not to use a western grip.