Interactive Forum March 2012: Sam Stosur's Kick Second Serve

[johnyandell]

Sam Stosur's Kick Second Serve

So here it is--one of the most requested motions on Tennisplayer--Samantha Stosur's kick second serve.

It's quite a physical event. So tell us what you think about her toss and her ball position at contact. And the racket path. Observe where the arm is pointing when the racket head turns over. AND what about that stance? Is that really a pinpoint? How does the stance relate to her body turn? AND what else are we not seeing that you do?

[johnyandell]

Quicktime versions

[bottle]

The powerful mechanics put her off-balance. Otherwise, why would she take racket out to right again to compensate?

[stotty]

The powerful mechanics put her off-balance. Otherwise, why would she take racket out to right again to compensate?

I admit she rebalances herself rather awkwardly after finishing the serve. Is this what you're referring to? Otherwise the follow through down the right side for a more prolonged period would be correct on a kick serve compared to a slice serve, wouldn't it?

By nature, the kick serve requires dramatic rebalancing at the end of the action because the ball is tossed to the left side of a player's body, and in order for the player not to keel over a considerable amount of stabilising must surely have to go on, somehow.

I'll go to the archive to study how other players rebalance...maybe some do it more fluently, more gracefully.

[DougEng]

Sam Stosur

I would classify it as an American Twist serve which is the older version of the modern kick. The difference between the two is the motion, not the spin (same spin type). The American Twist is more violent with a toss farther behind. Often the follow-through is also more to the right. Sam's distinct swing has the little hitch after the swing as she stops her racquet and pulls it back slightly which looks like a hitch at the end. Most players just relax and let the racquet stay out. If you play in regular speed it looks more dramatic.

Her stance is a bit too closed but that also promotes greater spin. Most unusual is that she starts with a wide platform and moves to what I call a narrow platform (the narrowest is a Roddick or Monfils). Most players who move the back foot come all the way forward to the pinpoint stance (two variations). Her variation still allows the body to stay sideways longer promoting spin and allows better driving action off the loaded back foot. A bit like Pete Sampras whom John Yandell pointed out was a foot dragger and neither truly platform or pinpoint. Sam is similar. In the coming years, we might be hearing more about, long axial rotation, kinetic chain node analysis and cocking actions. And less about pronation, etc as our understanding of mechanics improve.

Best,
Doug

[Smokey]

Kick

Doug:
Why do you think there will be less emphasis on pronation? I'm inclined to agree, since with ideal mechanics pronation is a result, not an action. But I don't have a teaching idea on that one way or the other.

"Hitting up" seems a misnomer to me. Most certainly the vector of the ball off the strings is horizontal at best, likely down slightly. I suppose it feels like you're hitting "up". But I doubt it at point of contact.

For Doug and anyone: Stosur can't hide her kick at all. Sampras did masterfully. How did Sampras (and Fed to some degree) use the same toss and starting motion to also generate a kick vs. radical ball toss and body position?

Lastly, do any of you guys have a simple verbal way to teach and describe how to hit a kicker that's an improvement over the typical?

Thanks --

[stotty]

Doug:
Why do you think there will be less emphasis on pronation? I'm inclined to agree, since with ideal mechanics pronation is a result, not an action. But I don't have a teaching idea on that one way or the other.

"Hitting up" seems a misnomer to me. Most certainly the vector of the ball off the strings is horizontal at best, likely down slightly. I suppose it feels like you're hitting "up". But I doubt it at point of contact.

For Doug and anyone: Stosur can't hide her kick at all. Sampras did masterfully. How did Sampras (and Fed to some degree) use the same toss and starting motion to also generate a kick vs. radical ball toss and body position?

Lastly, do any of you guys have a simple verbal way to teach and describe how to hit a kicker that's an improvement over the typical?

Thanks --

How is it possible to hit a kick serve without "hitting up". The ball would have leave the racket strings going, however briefly, "up"...wouldn't it? Can someone clear this question up.

[ravirama]

Minimal back arch

What I like about her serve is the absence of a pronounced arching of the back. I wonder what she does to compensate for that and still get a good kick ?

[DougEng]

Doug:
Why do you think there will be less emphasis on pronation? I'm inclined to agree, since with ideal mechanics pronation is a result, not an action. But I don't have a teaching idea on that one way or the other.

"Hitting up" seems a misnomer to me. Most certainly the vector of the ball off the strings is horizontal at best, likely down slightly. I suppose it feels like you're hitting "up". But I doubt it at point of contact.

For Doug and anyone: Stosur can't hide her kick at all. Sampras did masterfully. How did Sampras (and Fed to some degree) use the same toss and starting motion to also generate a kick vs. radical ball toss and body position?

Lastly, do any of you guys have a simple verbal way to teach and describe how to hit a kicker that's an improvement over the typical?

Thanks --

Sorry for any miscommunication. I meant the catch word in the next few years probably won't be "pronation" anymore. Separating pronation from other power-producing kinetic chain links isn't ideal. The correct terminology is "long axial rotation" which combines internal shoulder rotation, elbow extension, pronation, wrist flexion and deviation. Biomechanists and sport scientists are using this alternative terminology. But old habits are hard to die.

Here's an article by Bruce Elliott (top Australian biomechanist)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10824641

http://w4.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/2695/2533

And the USTA white paper on injuries (see page 12):

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/USTA_Import/USTA/dps/doc_437_102.pdf

Hitting upwards is really a reference from driving off the back leg and using ground forces. The racquet drops from the power position ("trophy position") to the launch position (racquet butt points upwards to the sky and ball) as the legs straighten and come off the ground. The actual contact point is upwards and then forward/through the ball tangentially to the path of the ball.

Sampras didn't have the "same toss" all the time. If you analyze his serve, the toss actually varies but less than the typical pro. What Sampras did extremely well was hit any direction off any toss.

Yes, I have a simple way of teaching the kick serve and I can get 3.5 players to do it almost right away. It's best to feel what's happening so not truly verbalizing.

[DougEng]

Kick Serve Description

Doug:
Why do you think there will be less emphasis on pronation? I'm inclined to agree, since with ideal mechanics pronation is a result, not an action. But I don't have a teaching idea on that one way or the other.

"Hitting up" seems a misnomer to me. Most certainly the vector of the ball off the strings is horizontal at best, likely down slightly. I suppose it feels like you're hitting "up". But I doubt it at point of contact.

For Doug and anyone: Stosur can't hide her kick at all. Sampras did masterfully. How did Sampras (and Fed to some degree) use the same toss and starting motion to also generate a kick vs. radical ball toss and body position?

Lastly, do any of you guys have a simple verbal way to teach and describe how to hit a kicker that's an improvement over the typical?

Thanks --

That's worth an article. Yes, it can be articulated but maybe sometime later if I have time.

[blake_b]

It seems to me that Stosur's toss is further to her left than the toss that most pros use for their kick serves. From a front view, it looks like the contact point is to the left of her head.

[carrerakent]

Nope...Carsten Ball is far better

Study Carsten Ball...his ranking won't get him into these archives...most likely...but since when does ranking have anything to do with mechanics?

Stosur's kick is flawed. Doesn't have enough velocity to spin ratio to be considered the best in tennis. I can see how old school thinkers would latch onto Stosur's kick as being so awesome.

Her right shoulder is not torqued and involved enough...this thread could lead people to think that she is flawless...when she is not...so people go out and try to teach what she does.

[stroke]

I think John said something very significant when he described Stosar's serve as a very physical event. It certainly is not a relaxed motion, and I think this leads to the rather abrupt finish on the right side of her body. Pat Dougherty stated once when you serve the way he teaches the serve, "the harder you try, the worse you get. The motion he teaches is a very efficient way to serve". I'm not sure this is true in Stosar's case because I do think she has the best serve in women's tennis, but it certainly is physical.

Federer, Sampras, and Raonic, who all have beautiful serves to watch, all have what appears to be a very relaxed motions. When you watch Federer, particularly when he warms up his serve, you really notice how relaxed he is. Same particularly for Sampras, maybe even more so if possible. And all those guys finish their serve motion in a relaxed, balanced way, hand toward the left hip finish.

I think the same principle applies to Federer's forehand vs Nadal. Federer has a very relaxed, efficient forehand and tends to finish relaxed on the left side of his body. Nadal has a very physical, not relaxed forehand, and finishes in a very different way. A lot more physical effort appears to go into his forehand vs Federer's. This does not mean Nadal's forehand could be better if he relaxed more. Clearly, it is a brutal weapon.

I just think the relaxed motions are much more efficient and to quote a phrase used by an announcer on the Tennis Channel, "more pleasing to the eye".

[bottle]

Nice. I noticed in watching video of Dougherty's student Naomi Totka that she finishes even higher than opposite hip. And I do think her signature "sick kick" is powerful yet totally relaxed, spin-loaded and no depth with very sharp angle all on purpose. I saw Michael Llodra, another lefty, do the same thing with great effect in Winston-Salem.

[jimlosaltos]

120 mph not enough?

Study Carsten Ball...his ranking won't get him into these archives...most likely...but since when does ranking have anything to do with mechanics?

Stosur's kick is flawed. Doesn't have enough velocity to spin ratio to be considered the best in tennis. I can see how old school thinkers would latch onto Stosur's kick as being so awesome.

Her right shoulder is not torqued and involved enough...this thread could lead people to think that she is flawless...when she is not...so people go out and try to teach what she does.

I'm not remotely an expert, but with Stosur's serve clocked at up to 120 mph, and typically 110-115 mph, I don't know what ratio you're seeking. Now "in tennis" is tough. Ryan Harrison has a lot of kick at 130 MPH, as just one example, but on the WTA I don't think anyone gets close to Stosur's kick. That's a primary reason WTA players do far worse defending their second serves than ATP players do IMHO i.e. it's extremely difficult to attack del Potro's second serve at 85 mph.

Stosur's downside seems to be predictability and variety.
.