Developing an ATP Forehand Part 1: The Dynamic Slot

[GeoffWilliams]

They only work if you have the guts to change what you've been doing. As a mid 50yr old, I can tell you, that is not easy. Even a simple thing like coiling diagonally, or unleashing faster, or pointing at the ball with your non dom. arm, is difficult. One thing I do to engram a new habit is shadow swinging with my frames as I walk the dog every day, and count to 90 times for a given change, and then do it again/----- ---\

Sadly, the last 5 tournaments I entered, I got hurt at work shortly before, and then played anyway, rolled ankle, hurt knee, pulled calf x 3, and that has jinxed me. Hate to lose to pushers I would have crushed with full mobility. Where is my injury article, John? Joints are different than soft tissue injuries. Ice, heat, massage, wraps, I've done it all trying to prep for matches with various injuries: elbow, shoulder, wrist, calf, knee, rotator, neck, ankle, achilles, etc.

[bottle]

No, you! I wish to communicate, see if these ideas work for another human being.

[10splayer]

One good forehand. That's all I ask.

For you?

[bottle]

One good forehand. That's all I ask.

[10splayer]

Yeah, I agree. But 10splayer can be exempted from reading THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA. He only needs to arm-wrestle with somebody who is 20 times stronger than he. Then, although 10splayer is pressing with all of his might yet his arm keeps going down, he can try for a surge of kinetic chain that starts with push down of back foot against the tavern floor.

First you send me to the library, then you dare me to challenge the manhood of an enormous man. What are you trying to do to me Bottle?

[bottle]

Yeah, I agree. But 10splayer can be exempted from reading THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA. He only needs to arm-wrestle with somebody who is 20 times stronger than he. Then, although 10splayer is pressing with all of his might yet his arm keeps going down, he can try for a surge of kinetic chain that starts with push down of back foot against the tavern floor.

[spacediver]

As I do this stuff, I'm finding that I need to send off an early executive command to start the forward arm motion whatever it is. ("Start the wiper NOW! Start the hinge NOW! Start hurling twist of upper arm NOW!" Etc., etc.) So in that sense, I'm not sure about the conventional wisdom of leading with the gross body any more.

I don't think executive control and kinetic chains are mutually exclusive. The story is probably quite a bit more complex.

[spacediver]

i've been waiting for brian gordon to resurface, and am very excited about this. I cannot wait for the biomechanical explication of this overview article.

A comment:

I understand the principle explained in the article - that setting up the correct configuration during backswing is critical to optimizing the subsequent series of movements, in particular the motion dependent torques, stretch shorten, etc.

However, and I think I'm probably the only one who has this problem, I cannot for the life of me figure out what is meant by:

"At the conclusion of the descending portion of the loop note the elbow is still elevated, the hand is to the hitting side of the elbow, and the racquet head is above, and to the hitting side of, the hand. The hitting arm and racquet are on a slight diagonal to the shoulder."

I gather that this terminology is probably standard in coaching circles, but I'm having difficulty visualizing what is meant. I'm assuming that "hitting side" roughly equates to "in front of", or in the zone between the body part in question and where the ball is.

So what would it mean to have the hand in the hitting side of the elbow? Does this mean that the wrist is flexed, so that the palm is in front of the elbow (and if it were hyperextended it would be behind, or on the non-hitting side of the elbow)?

[10splayer]

As I do this stuff, I'm finding that I need to send off an early executive command to start the forward arm motion whatever it is. ("Start the wiper NOW! Start the hinge NOW! Start hurling twist of upper arm NOW!" Etc., etc.) So in that sense, I'm not sure about the conventional wisdom of leading with the gross body any more. I start the arm first and then it gets swamped, drowned, overwhelmed. The total motion despite the conflict goes away from the net. People should re-read THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA just for its arm-wrestling scene. That will help them to understand that physiology not just strength and psychology is involved.

Ironically, if your arm is trying to go forward as it goes backward, it will retreat more slowly, which will result, in tennis, in body leading the arm before you hit the ball, just with more of a build-up.

Bottle, are you saying that you don't subscribe to a kinetic chain theory, with transfer from core out to the periphery? Or am I misunderstanding you. Can't read, so The Old Man and the Sea is not an option.

[tennis_chiro]

Too many grey hairs!

P.S. You can call me Larry, even though that is not my name.

Sorry, I got confused with another poster and now I'm not sure who that was.

don

[bottle]

As I do this stuff, I'm finding that I need to send off an early executive command to start the forward arm motion whatever it is. ("Start the wiper NOW! Start the hinge NOW! Start hurling twist of upper arm NOW!" Etc., etc.) So in that sense, I'm not sure about the conventional wisdom of leading with the gross body any more. I start the arm first and then it gets swamped, drowned, overwhelmed. The total motion despite the conflict goes away from the net. People should re-read THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA just for its arm-wrestling scene. That will help them to understand that physiology not just strength and psychology is involved.

Ironically, if your arm is trying to go forward as it goes backward, it will retreat more slowly, which will result, in tennis, in body leading the arm before you hit the ball, just with more of a build-up.

[10splayer]

I think Larry makes a great point here. You need to complete the turn of the hips and even, to a certain extent, the shoulders before the arm moves the racket in that explosive move forward to the ball. The hips and shoulders should turn from the position where the hips are at least perpendicular to the net and the shoulders are even further back than that to a finish where the bellybutton is basically facing the net. Some are quicker than others, but the I think the hand is quicker than the hips, as well as the eye. We generate power with our hip turn and thereby use our core and leg power, but in the sequential firing of the kinetic chain, I think the hips and shoulders need to go first. I'm always trying to get my juniors to feel the power they get from their core and legs by making them through medicine balls or feel the power of an uppercut punch with an isometric exercise at the contact point, but I understand that the reality is that by the time the racket gets to the ball, the legs and shoulders have done their work and the energy is just being released into the ball and directed by the wrist.

I loved the article and I'm dying to see the 2nd article about the true function of the wrist. As much as this treatise elucidates the importance of getting inside with a stretch-shortening cycle, I am still a little unsure of one of my basic questions: "Is Federer's forehand as great as it is because of or inspite of that little wiggle he does at the beginning of his downswing?" Clearly, he is benefiting from an exaggerated stretch-shortening cycle, but there are a lot of huge forehands that manage to incorporate the stretch-shortening aspect to their stroke without that wiggle. (I think Bottle calls it the "mondo". I've never been entirely sure.) I feel like that contributes to his propensity to go off and miss a lot of easy forehands. We used to have a lot of discussions about that on this site, especially with Air Force.

Finally, I think it is important to recognize their are other advantages to that little "loop" that drops the racket into the "slot". Tennis is a lot more than power. In the moment when that racket head is traveling through that path, your inner computer is feeling the position and orientation of the racket and of the racket face. It is thereby more able to make the necessary millions of computations it goes through to make the racket meet the ball. And the rhythmic feel of that motion (please, I am not advocating a rhythm hit) relaxes the body and gives it a chance to respond "Oh, yeah. I remember this. I know how to do this. I've done this a million times before." That is a clear advantage over the simpler straight back and down backswing that is still taught to a lot of beginners. And when you drop into that little loop from a Type III ATP forehand backswing, you are able to generate momentum directly at the target from the beginning of the swing instead of only after the Type I backswing stroke has turned the corner. These aspects may be a little harder if not impossible for Brian to measure, but they are still very important in understanding the importance and advantages of that ATP style forehand.

don

Yeah, one of the things I've found helpful for students is to just start with a basic overview of how a multi-segmented swing actually works. IMO, any sort of stretch shortening is based on the body "leading" the movement, and the arm and hand "following" (in large part working in the opposite direction) That can be a challenge for those who are rooted in more old school, "unitary" torso/arm rotational patterns. It just doesn't create the kind of speed or stretch reflex response.

In this regard, IMO, it's important to teach a student (in a multisegmented sense) how to separate the body movement from the hand/arm movement. That is, that they work principally in opposite directions. The body turns and loads in the backswing even as the hands and arms stay in front. (and prevented from rotating externally). In the forward swing, the body unwinds, even as the hands and arms are allowed to work backwards. Simplistic I know, but for those students who work the body/arms "back together/forward together" it can be helpful.

You make a great point, about the difference in speed capability between the arm and body rotation. The torso is a large machine, that takes time to wind and unwind.(comparatively to hand and arm speed) There is always a danger of the hands outracing, (or leading) the torso. That is the very essence of "arming" the ball, which one sees everyday in clubs across America. That's what I was alluding to in a previous post, about the importance of proper sequencing. And how the body (in many cases) is beginning it's forward rotational cycle even as the racquet is being laid down in the backswing. This ensures the body will "lead" and place a "load" (backward rotation) on the arm. At least potentially.


Anyhoo, just my 02 cents. Yeah, i agree, this should be a great series of articles. Gordon is a genius as far as I'm concerned. And so are you I might add. I am always interested in what you have to say.

P.S. You can call me Larry, even though that is not my name.

[GeoffWilliams]

That was a typo. I knew it when I left the house, but had to go work for a living!

[tennis_chiro]

Picking nits!

First things first. Footwork has to be there to defend the contact point. The unit turn is the most common thing with the elite players, and that is identical in all of them. That quick sideways turn off split allows a full diagonal load with the non dominant arm, and backwards load with the shoulders. Once in this attacking position, that allows them to more quickly rotate the core, the shoulders, and hip leading out, dragging the shot, just like in the serve motion.
The most important difference between elite and lower players found in this study was the following, imho.:
"Nevertheless, the high
performance players reached their maximum pelvis angular
velocity significantly earlier (-0.093 ± 0.012 s)."

"The results indicate that the
tendency towards higher horizontal shoulder and racquet
velocities in the elite group were caused by significantly
different timing patterns of maximum angular pelvis and
trunk rotations."

So we are talking about 1/100th of a second earlier max. velocity reached by the elite players. On average. You can blink your eyes three times in a second, so why would such a small difference in time make such a big difference in ball speed? In that 1/100th of a second, the ball would have left the string bed 25 times. The margins are slim. That is why so many fail at this game. They just cannot rotate fast enough nor consistent enough.

And what do the best players do under the worst pressure? They rotate faster, hit harder, turn earlier. That's what makes them the best. Whether it's training, or genetics, or I don't know what, it's a gorgeous thing to see on any level, when a player decides: "I am going to win.", and rotates accordingly.

Picking nits here a little bit, Geoff, but (.093 sec) is more like 1/11 of a second, not 1/100. That is significant. What you say, however, is no less true.

don

[GeoffWilliams]

First things first. Footwork has to be there to defend the contact point. The unit turn is the most common thing with the elite players, and that is identical in all of them. That quick sideways turn off split allows a full diagonal load with the non dominant arm, and backwards load with the shoulders. Once in this attacking position, that allows them to more quickly rotate the core, the shoulders, and hip leading out, dragging the shot, just like in the serve motion.
The most important difference between elite and lower players found in this study was the following, imho.:
"Nevertheless, the high
performance players reached their maximum pelvis angular
velocity significantly earlier (-0.093 ± 0.012 s)."

"The results indicate that the
tendency towards higher horizontal shoulder and racquet
velocities in the elite group were caused by significantly
different timing patterns of maximum angular pelvis and
trunk rotations."

So we are talking about 1/10th of a second earlier max. velocity reached by the elite players. On average. You can blink your eyes three times in a second, so why would such a small difference in time make such a big difference in ball speed? In that 1/10th of a second, the ball would have left the string bed 25 times. The margins are slim. That is why so many fail at this game. They just cannot rotate fast enough nor consistent enough.

And what do the best players do under the worst pressure? They rotate faster, hit harder, turn earlier. That's what makes them the best. Whether it's training, or genetics, or I don't know what, it's a gorgeous thing to see on any level, when a player decides: "I am going to win.", and rotates accordingly.