The Forehand Volley

[johnyandell]

Nokomis,

That was brutal over there at TW but the good news is that the two biggest zealot disciples quit or were forced to quit posting. I take at least partial credit for making that happen.

They left in a hail of nasty messages but neither they nor Oscar have been heard from since. The one disciple left there also backed way off his constant sales promos and personal attacks. He just seems like a harmless crank now.

Fighting with those guys for the last year or so I considered somewhere between a hobby and a form of free group therapy. The really interesting thing is that the more they were challenged the more they were willing to distort and fabricate the facts and the more personal they got in their attacks on anyone who dared to disagree--until I guess their heads finally exploded. It was a very interesting example of cult behavior though and the implications went way beyond tennis.

Oscar is an interesting personality type in the way a lot of would be cult leaders are interesting psychologically. I knew from previous experiences that that surface nicey nice thing wasn't real and I know a lot of other people in the various organizations and tennis media who had had nasty experiences with him similar to mine. It was really interesting watching him slowly reveal himself. The whole weird experience definitely backfired as part of his master plan to sell dvd's, take credit for world coaching development, and become the czar.

That was the scary wider point. If this wasn't tennis and Oscar was czar how would that have boded for people who dared to stand up to him?

[nokomis]

Don

Yes, I see your points here and would agree that they present a viable option to what we see today. Nick (and a few others) of course always take the blame for certain changes in the game which some find, generally in retrospect, negative. Although I live very close to him and follow activities at IMG, I do not know him personally although we have spoken briefly from time to time. I happen to think his contributions to the game have been, for the most part, extremely favorable although I have not always agreed or supported his approaches.

We do practice having kids move in & out - maybe not as much as we should but its part of our training programs for several reasons as you stated. I find it interesting that "some" players, regardless of how much I push the issue, are just not comfortable at net. Those that play doubles, for the most part, will come to net on a regular basis but most singles players these days stay back - male & female. It can be frustrating to a coach when players will take the net only to retreat at the first possible opportunity.

I think this discussion is encouraging and creates opportunities that could very well be productive - for a time, I thought the S & V game was through, maybe its not. Many players fear getting caught in no-mans-land or even on the service line and as a result stay back - they probably fear the passing shot or lob too much.

[nokomis]

Yes, Papa. That will be nice.

For the last couple of years I have been writing more as a commenter at USAToday and other American newspapers and magazines. I feel that the world is slipping out of our hands and our incompetent, corrupt, leaders are not doing enough to wage peace in the world. I see lots of racism and hatred. I have been suggesting people to people interaction and World Peace Conference to sort out all the nagging issues of conflicts and dissent.

If you are on the Facebook, send me a Friend request. I am there as Mahboob Khan. My picture is with Imran Khan.

Nice to know that you are well. Say my salam to your family.

Mahboob,

Agree with you totally and this isn't a problem in your country alone - we see it everywhere. Racism and hatred cannot/should not be tolerated anywhere. Sports has helped but we have a long way to go - hopefully with appropriate interaction we can solve some of this. Fortunately, in the US we don't see/experience as much of this behavior but it still exists and probably always will.

Some/many are determined to reduce or eliminate the rights of others to further their own agendas. Greed plays a significant role but for others they only know a life of disruption and and the spread of violence - hard to change.

Anyways, as you have stated, perhaps if we could establish a more extended dialog with our neighbors throughout the world we could curb/modify this negative attitude of hate and build a better world. Sports is helping but we need a greater participation by all nations and their people to turn this around.

Papa

[makhan67]

Yes, Papa. That will be nice.

For the last couple of years I have been writing more as a commenter at USAToday and other American newspapers and magazines. I feel that the world is slipping out of our hands and our incompetent, corrupt, leaders are not doing enough to wage peace in the world. I see lots of racism and hatred. I have been suggesting people to people interaction and World Peace Conference to sort out all the nagging issues of conflicts and dissent.

If you are on the Facebook, send me a Friend request. I am there as Mahboob Khan. My picture is with Imran Khan.

Nice to know that you are well. Say my salam to your family.

[nokomis]

Makhan 67

Mahboob,

Well your insight into the sport has been very accurate over the years and although we might have been at odds on small matters, I certainly agreed with you on just about everything - nice to hear everything is going well.

I have not followed TW much in the past couple of years - seemed to have become more a advertising board for Oscar Wegner and a few of his followers. Just got boring reading constant messages suggesting Oscar invented everything. I happen to like Oscar and have talked to him on a couple of occasions but his followers seem to be bent on claiming he invented all aspects of the game as its played today. Oh well, if your now posting there maybe others will come back as well and we can have some decent conversations again.

Papa

[makhan67]

Nokomis: Thank you that you remember. I have restarted writing at the TW forum. Take care.

[makhan67]

It is somehow very hard for me to imagine a Director of Cardio Tennis in Islamabad. Why is it so hard for me to imagine Pakistanis running around wily nily in a Cardio tennis class?! But at the same time, it is very encouraging. And by the nature of his comments, I bet Mahboob runs a great cardio class. Somehow, I am sure it is very demanding. We may be so different and yet we are at the core really so very much alike.

don

Ha ha. Well, because of Afghan war it appears to the outside world that Pakistanis are only good in shooting people! Maybe it's true also because we fought against the Soviet Union for ten years and defeated them. The current war in Afghanistan is quite ugly and I can't talk about it.

Well, if you want to know my political views then you may like to read my comments at USAToday newspaper and other papers such as the Blaze and the Huffington Post, etc. I am on the Facebook as Mahboob Khan.

Pakistan has produced some great champions. I belong to Khan family and one of my relative Jehangir Khan was the world Squash Champion for over a decade. His winning streak of 555 matches in a row is a world record for any sport. After him came Jansher Khan who was also the World's Squash Champion. Pakistan field Hockey has won Gold in the Olympics, and under Imran Khan Pakistan Cricket Team had won the Cricket World Cup in 1992. Currently Pakistan is the World Champion in T20 Cricket. Our Aisam ul Haq Qureshi with his Indian partner Rohan Bopanna were runner up in the U.S. Open Doubles. They had wins over the likes of Bryan Brothers. In Singles Aisam had wins over Gasquet and Mardy Fish. Back in the 70s, Haroon Rahim had wins over the top players of the world including Jimmy Connors. Haroon Rahim had won two ATP Singles Titles in the Open era. I am number 2 in the world in the ITF ITN Skill Testing (www.oncourtassessment.com).

Cardio Tennis in Pakistan: In February this year I attended the PTR's International Tennis Symposium in Orlando, FL. In the PTR's International Tennis Championships I beat your Ken DeHart in three sets. Ken as you know is the National Director for Cardio Tennis. I picked up the idea from him and he also encouraged me to start this program in Pakistan which I did.

You may read my article here (Strategy) "The Tactical Universe". I have also uploaded thousands of tennis tips, articles, and instructions at www.tennis-warehouse.com.

My daughter Sarah Khan was Pakistan No. 1 tennis champion for six years. Currently, she is on an Athletic Scholarship in USA playing for her College. I am so happy for her.

John Yandell is a great friend of mine. His services to the game of tennis are simply outstanding.

Thank you for your observation and patience.

Mahboob Khan
Facebook: Mahboob Khan
Top Commenter USAToday.

[don_budge]

Teaching beginners the surge forwards...and to retreat backwards

Unless the volley stroke is well developed, I've found that using/introducing the serge forward confuses the process quite a bit. I also don't want players to get so close to the net that they are easily lobed or more likely, passed. I like what your saying and believe it important but perhaps at much higher levels.

Regarding racquet size: I think the chances of reducing head size to 80 square inches is a pipe dream - its not going to happen. There isn't a current player using anything close to that today; would require massive retooling of molds; would significantly change teaching techniques (might be for the better); - IMO, just not a viable option that we will never see.

This sort of movement transcends even the volley and approach angles but of course with advanced players that is the main thrust. Recently I have begun teaching from the net backwards with the youngest of students and the least talented as well. I have found that the volley stroke is the simplest therefore that is the place to start with the beginner. Build on the simplest foundation and move on up.

I love to work the kids away from the net and then back again. In this way I can really get them to move whereas otherwise I need a cattle-prod it seems. They love it when I am shouting at them in mock desperation to "GET BACK" or "GO FORWARDS" (in Swedish of course). But stop and think about this for a moment. For beginners what is the most difficult ball for them to recognize at the moment that their opponent strikes the ball. To me it appears that the short ball is the one that is the most difficult for them to react to and the deep ball is a close second. This business of moving forwards and backwards gets them moving and teaches them to anticipate these types of shots and how to prepare to hit them...with some prodding.

But the thing about starting them at the net is a good idea too. It seems that modern tennis has almost created a phobia about pressing the issue at the net. Coaches don't even bother to drill this sort of game into their students whereas here at the forum we have an accomplished tennis player who has retooled his game and converted his thinking from a strictly baseline mentality to a player who strikes when the opportunity arises. True...the modern game creates some unique problems to pressing the issue at the net but on the other hand I imagine that there are some unique solutions to said problems. Imaginative approaches are one solution.

One of the solutions is to practice the movement forward and the corresponding shots that go with it. I swear the tennis coaching mentality was hijacked back in the mid 80's by Bollettieri and the rest of the minions and by now the truth is out about the actual depth of coaching that went into that era. I am not so sure that this sort of play cannot be incorporated even as Jeff Greenwald has retooled his game.

All that being said though...I hope that you actively try and engage your students in this kind of activity. You will find that at least it is a great conditioning regimen or it may change your thinking about the way the game is being played. My kids are noticeably happier with their training which makes me happy. What is more...I see more enthusiasm where before I saw boredom. It's fun and it is hard work. Great combination for tennis enthusiasts.

[privas]

Low Volley

Paul, excellent, most excellent work on this. A true gem.

As a weekend hacker anchored to the baseline, my biggest fear of serve and volley is the Low Volley. I've seen Edberg and Sampras and Rafter get tripped up on this one so many times on big points.

I would love to see a brief explanation on how to deal with this one.

Pedro

[nokomis]

don's comments

Probably a poor choice of words ("seems") but I was looking at this from a lower level of coaching and how it might apply.

I have tried over the years to introduce the volley with the approach with mixed/disappointing results. A few get it while most don't and just run through the shot bi-passing the split step. Another key is getting them (or any player) not to stop on the split step. Unless the volley stroke is well developed, I've found that using/introducing the serge forward confuses the process quite a bit. I also don't want players to get so close to the net that they are easily lobed or more likely, passed. I like what your saying and believe it important but perhaps at much higher levels.

I probably have a half dozen players, mostly at the high school level, that incorporate your ideas well but that leaves the high majority that don't - about 50 at the high school and middle school level.

Look, I'm older than most and have been around this game more time than I care to admit but I'm always looking for ways to improve my players and coaching techniques - kinda why I like John and this site. Although I'm working with middle school kids at the moment (can't have contact with high school kids outside the season) I will again try to introduce these methods.

Regarding racquet size: I think the chances of reducing head size to 80 square inches is a pipe dream - its not going to happen. There isn't a current player using anything close to that today; would require massive retooling of molds; would significantly change teaching techniques (might be for the better); - IMO, just not a viable option that we will never see.

[don_budge]

Hello Blake!

Hi Don_Budge,

In your post above you make the following statement "much of it lies in the lack of tactics in the approach game and much of that lies in the lack of touch"

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on approach tactics, since I enjoy playing an all court game, and I realize how important the approach is to successful volleys.

Thanks,
Blake

I moved my response to the thread "My Thoughts on the Volley". Thanks for the question. It was a great one and it required a considerable amount of thought. Great questions are the key to good conversations.

[don_budge]

Conventional vs. don_budge

Regarding don budge's comments: He seems very knowledgeable about the game and has made many excellent points regarding the volley.

The key operative word is "seems"...I can appreciate your skepticism. But all of your points are well taken and represent the accepted conventional wisdom. The engineering has overwhelmed the evolution...to which I object. Racquets for the pros should be 80 sq. inches max. At that size they can use any string they want. They will have to retool the mechanics though. Evolution would be back in the equation.

Try these drills in the above post (now moved to the thread "My Thoughts on the Volley") with your students. Teach them to blend the journey to the net from the backcourt. Along the way they will work out those kinks in their volley techniques...the collision between man and ball will require that of them. Have a little fun with it.

[nokomis]

reality of tennis at lower levels

Mahboob Khan & I go back many years in various tennis related things mostly on the web - Tennis Warehouse & others (Papa). Excellent insight into the game including a very sound understanding of stroke mechanics and strategies at the higher end of the game. He is an absolute gentleman who's daughter is/was a top level player - I certainly respect his opinion.

Regarding don budge's comments: He seems very knowledgeable about the game and has made many excellent points regarding the volley. Although "most" good coaches would support his "forward serge" theme, the primary reason we have players practice close to the net (service line in) is to get the mechanics of the stroke in place. Most often, the swing is way too big, no shoulder turn, players head stays too high, racquet head drops below way below the hand, player doesn't follow the ball into the racquet and so forth.

When (and in many cases if) we get the mechanics relatively correct we will get into the serge aspect of the volley. So, much like other strokes, we (coaches) have to get the basics on track before we move to move advanced aspects of the stroke - I consider the serge aspect/movement more advanced .

I should mention that many players (at the high school or middle school level) are just not comfortable at net - period. The ongoing changes in racquets and strings (and other equipment) has allowed players to hit winners on a regular basis from the baseline and beyond. Although I would agree with don's remarks, they probably are more applicable these days to doubles. Unfortunately match scoring in college and high school these days (most anyway) use 6 singles and 3 doubles pro sets - each getting one point so the emphasis is on singles, not doubles. The serve and volley game can be effective (very effective) at times. However, if used too much it seldom works (again, these days) because players, even at the high school level and below, can hit such effective passing shots and lobs.

So, has the game changed and continues to change because of equipment - my opinion would be yes. Is the S & V game still viable - yes, but to a much lesser extent than in the past. Are coaches at fault here - maybe to some extent. Most of us are not working with world class athletes. Our players are good and often get spots in college - however, the reality is, seldom, if ever, will most play at the professional (ATP or WTA) level.

[tennis_chiro]

Cardio Tennis in Islamabad?!

Mahboob Khan
Director, Cardio Tennis
MKTA, Islamabad Club
Pakistan
Mobile: 0092 300 8568403

It is somehow very hard for me to imagine a Director of Cardio Tennis in Islamabad. Why is it so hard for me to imagine Pakistanis running around wily nily in a Cardio tennis class?! But at the same time, it is very encouraging. And by the nature of his comments, I bet Mahboob runs a great cardio class. Somehow, I am sure it is very demanding. We may be so different and yet we are at the core really so very much alike.

don

[makhan67]

Would love to get your thoughts on Paul Cohen's latest "The Forehand Volley".

You and Paul Cohen made it so simple to learn and then teach it to others. The good thing is that you learn it yourself and then make it quite simple to teach to others. Albert Einstein has said, "If you can't explain it simply, you have not understood it completely".

The TennisPlayer makes us understand it fully and then we are empowered to teach it to our students. The Tennisplayer is the best coach in the world.

Great work, as usual, John Yandell, and Paul Cohen.

Mahboob Khan
Director, Cardio Tennis
MKTA, Islamabad Club
Pakistan
Mobile: 0092 300 8568403