Interactive Forum January 2013: Jo Willie Tsonga Serve

[DougEng]

Of course, Andy Murray also has issues with his second serve. His elbow is too high and not in line with his shoulders. Therefore his racquet drop isn't as low as others and he can't utilize hip over hip with a long slot as well as other players. His slot is shorter than others because he doesn't achieve as low a drop as a Roddick for example. It's a slightly different issue from Paul Goldstein (whom John Yandell analyzed and helped).

Therefore in matches, as good as Andy's first serve is, the second is not that effective. He is prone to leaving it hanging a bit. The weight-lifting he does may not help him either with the serve as it may be rather counterproductive. He needs a steeper loading/cocking position and greater flexibility. He is using more strength than technique.

[DougEng]

Agree.

Raonic for one, should be a one-hander. He probably won't dominate from the baseline as well as other players. Tsonga has a better baseline game, is a better mover and he's further along in age/development so he shouldn't change. But Raonic could benefit from a good one-hander and more aggressive all-court and serve-and-volley. Otherwise I think it will be hard for him to really crack the top 5-6.

On Tsonga's serve:

He uses a wide-to-pinpoint stance which usually limits loading/cocking on the rear leg. To make that phase even less pronounced is his backswing which never goes past the right leg, hence, the short loading. Platform stances get more loading and more vertical. In addition, platform can keep the hips from over-rotating at contact and all things combined, result in a heavy serve.

I don't think Tsonga can hit much harder since the present stance probably favors greater pace but a flatter ball. With his height, that's fine. He could use
slightly more upwards for the heavier serve but that may not add pace.

His grip is also geared to the flatter, bigger serve. All in all, his serve technique points to a big flat serve that could be a big inconsistent.

Checking the Australian Open, Tsonga's serve percentage was reasonable...in 3 matches it ranged from 55-71%. His first serve speed was respectable 189-197 km/h. But his second serve speed is suspect. My feeling is that because he may not be able to hit the same heavy serve as a Sampras or Federer, he chooses to slow down the racquet head speed sacrificing spin and speed for a higher percentage in. So he doesn't double fault but may not have as effective serve as he should. That makes his second serve very average for a player ranked 20-50. Not a top 10 second serve for a guy of his height.

[johnyandell]

I think some people are natural one-handers. And great talents like Tsonga Raonic can hit two-handers even if they fall into the other category. We'll never find out if they do because no top 10 player has ever made that kind of radical change and I doubt ever will.

The open question could only be about up and coming players. It's too bad that some of the great volleyers like Tsonga and Raonic don't have the one, but maybe we will see someone in the future...

[arturohernandez]

John,

But I kept hearing Gilbert and Cahill complain about how they hate Tsonga's one hander. They also think that Roger Rasheed is probably working on him to get more disciplined about hitting the two hander. I realize this is a can of worms but I really think he could develop a one hander and do it relatively well. Maybe something like a Youzhny/Borg Hybrid to start and then see where it goes. He is already a millionaire and is set for life. Why not try some small experiments and see if he could actually get good enough to break into the top 4?

Please, please write an article or get some discussion started on this. I don't think everyone should hit a one-handed backhand but it is clear that some people would be better off with it or at least trying a hybrid or something of the sort. I get the same feeling with Raonic. These guys are huge and hitting with two hands. They don't really need more strength. I don't think they are going to have a problem with height or reach. But the one hander would let them extend their arms more and I think it would be lethal. Not for all tall players. For example, Berdych and Del Potro have very nice two handed backhands. But Tsonga and Raonic are playing small ball when they could be attacking and looking to move in and end the point.

A one-hander would emphasize the linear component of the stroke and make them lethal. If Raonic's idol was Sampras, he should have copied his backhand. It wasn't the greatest and as you have noted elsewhere it was flawed. But it was built to attack and Pete's game and feel around the net was enhanced because of it.

Maybe I am overreaching but it would be nice to get an article on this.

Best,

Arturo

[johnyandell]

arturo,

When I look at his backhand I think the same thing...

John Yandell

[tennis_chiro]

ouch!

I think lobndropshot is right. His grip does look less than continental...going towards a forehand grip if you ask me. I wonder if this has anything to do with why his racket tip collapses so early after the hit. Didn't Boris Becker (whose grip also erred towards a forehand) have a similar early collapse?

If you go to the frames 12 to 15 clicks past the contact on the second of these two serves, you can see Stotty is right about the grip. I also see the potential strain the lack of final internal rotation could create on Jo Wilfred's wrist. You really need high speed slow motion to be able to see this. I'm not sure what you mean by "collapses so early". He certainly gets a lot of motion and the racket head gets to the position where it points almost straight down, but the lack of this last little bit of internal rotation limits maximization of his potential power and spin on his serve as well as putting tremendous strain on his wrist. As much of a beast as Tsonga is, he should be able to serve significantly bigger than his contemporary cohort. I mean, he should be able to serve regularly in the 140's and often up into the 150's. He certainly serves up into the high 130's, but rarely faster. I also think this limits his consistency and first serve percentage as well as allowing a few more double faults. Still a very good serve, but it breaks down and is not what I think it could have been.

don

[arturohernandez]

The racket drop

I have read on tennisplayer.net (can't remember exactly where) that Becker used his hand to try and hit a second serve but that it would break down under pressure. Tsonga is tall and strong. But I wonder if his kick serve would be better with a couple of tweaks in order to get a better drop. That being said his serve is definitely not a liability. I agree that athleticism can play a role and make up for lack of technique. Maybe the key point is to think of the serve as having a range of probable motions with a range of probable outcomes. Tsonga represents one range that works for him. Could it be better? Probably but I think he is better off working on his backhand which I am now convinced he should have hit with one hand when he was younger. Maybe that could be the subject of another thread...

[movement203]

also

a leg that hasn't been loaded and unloaded doesn't kick back like that.

[movement203]

no rear leg loading?

then why does the right gastroc flare out as he rocks backward? it seems that he is using elastic energy as he translates energy from his right to left leg, and up into the core....sounds like loading and unloading as i understand it. of course, i might not understand.

[stotty]

Tsonga & Boris

I think lobndropshot is right. His grip does look less than continental...going towards a forehand grip if you ask me. I wonder if this has anything to do with why his racket tip collapses so early after the hit. Didn't Boris Becker (whose grip also erred towards a forehand) have a similar early collapse?

[stotty]

Is the grip on the first serve sequence less than a continental?

Looks it...hard to tell...can't quite get a clear enough view...fingers look more bunched together than other pro's.

[lobndropshot]

Is the grip on the first serve sequence less than a continental?

[jryle1]

It's a very different and unique serve. What's everyones opinion on his racket drop? Is it a little shorter relative to other pro players?

Tough to tell from these angles but I think it might be a bit. Maybe not.

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

Jo Willie Tsonga Serve

[johnyandell]

Jo Willie Tsonga Serve

Jo Tsonga definitely has an effective serve that contributes to his top 10 ranking. But do these sequences show that it is more a matter of technique or raw ability? I say the later.

Watch the start of the motion and how he rocks back into that super wide stance. But before he even gets the front foot down, the back foot is already on the move. Unlike the great servers such as Roger Federer or Pete Sampras, there is literally no loading on the back leg. He starts with his torso slightly open, and that in combination with the extreme pinpoint stance, means he has virtually zero body turn away from the ball.
Watch how close he is to wide open at contact--again so different than Federer or Sampras.

Now in the second sequence look at his hitting arm action. Yes, there is some hand and arm rotation there, but far less than even in the first sequence. Watch how early the racket tip collapses forward after the hit. Is he trying to somehow "snap" the wrist? Most top players turn the racket over 90 degrees plus after the contact regardless of the serve placement.

Tsonga is a great player but displays many of the technical serving elements that, while popular and even advocated by some coaches, don't make for a great technical motion.

Now, your analysis please!