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Developing an ATP Style Two-Handed Backhand: Part 1

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  • #16
    On edge or closed?

    Rick Macci suggests having the racket face "closed a little bit" is more healthy than having the racket face on edge. Why is this? Where is the benefit of having the racket face slightly closed? I cannot work out where the benefit is...some kind of coiling perhaps?

    I have always taught an Agassi style two-hander...on edge. I think it's a great model.

    Thoughts, John...or anyone?
    Last edited by stotty; 10-25-2013, 01:35 PM.
    Stotty

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    • #17
      Because the backward arm rotation wil be slightly greater in the flip?

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      • #18
        I'm wondering how many pros on this website teach more of a double bend backhand with the left elbow more tucked into the body.

        I've been teaching the right arm straight (but not tight) and the left elbow bent since a few of my kids also work with Rick.

        Anybody care to comment?

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        • #19
          I think you teach the turn and the extension and you can teach the Brian Gordon backswing position for the flip. Then film the player and see what they do. You can experiment from there. But in my experience the women are going to naturally be bent bent.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
            I think you teach the turn and the extension and you can teach the Brian Gordon backswing position for the flip. Then film the player and see what they do. You can experiment from there. But in my experience the women are going to naturally be bent bent.
            Why would the women be naturally bent bent?

            Some of the younger juniors (girls) are learning the straight/bent today. They don't seem to have any trouble with it and are able to create a nice flip even at the age of 10. Do you find the women prone to this because of their physical capabilities?

            Thanks for response. Hoping others will give feedback also.

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            • #21
              Double handed backhand

              Originally posted by gordonp View Post
              Why would the women be naturally bent bent?

              Some of the younger juniors (girls) are learning the straight/bent today. They don't seem to have any trouble with it and are able to create a nice flip even at the age of 10. Do you find the women prone to this because of their physical capabilities?

              Thanks for response. Hoping others will give feedback also.
              gordonp,

              a post #23

              is a bit related to YOUR FIRST POST
              I believe that a extended wrist allows/promotes a left hand to be away from a body of a player (for a righty).
              So we have two different scenerios (as pointed out by 10player for forehand)
              a down the line shot and a cross court shot.
              Julian
              Last edited by julian1; 11-14-2013, 12:59 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by gordonp View Post
                Why would the women be naturally bent bent?

                Some of the younger juniors (girls) are learning the straight/bent today. They don't seem to have any trouble with it and are able to create a nice flip even at the age of 10. Do you find the women prone to this because of their physical capabilities?

                Thanks for response. Hoping others will give feedback also.
                I must confess I teach bent bent with girls. I find they can produce the shot more quickly and easily under duress. They take to it much more easily. If I had a girl with world-class potential I may consider the straight/bent option.

                I do have a girl who is very good who uses straight/bent but I'm finding it difficult to get her straight arm taught enough...you know, so she feels a pulling feeling at the shoulder.

                Generally, though, I mostly happy to let nature take its course with this kind of thing. If a player has a leaning one way or the other I let them run with it. I feel the same way about the forehand. Players will either be straight arm or double bend...either is fine with me. Coaches make life difficult for themselves (and their students) by tampering with these things in my opinion
                Last edited by stotty; 11-14-2013, 01:15 PM.
                Stotty

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                • #23
                  gp,

                  I could be wrong and it could be related to teaching. Not sure also if it's arm strength, shoulder and hip width, or irrelevant. Many of the top women are moving more toward the men's forehand. But the huge majority of the women are bent bent on the bh. Can't think of one since Dementieva who wasn't.

                  I think the only restraint would be restraint. Don't force what isn't there. I had that experience with an elite socal junior girl who just had to be straight/straight. Never happened. Same with a touring pro in the top hundred. He was bent bent and instead of working on the underlying probs spent untold hours trying to be straight straight. Again, didn't happen.

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                  • #24
                    Thanks everybody for your feedback. It's always good to hear from other pros.
                    John, have you considered doing scientific research in regards to which style produces the most power on a consistent basis?

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                    • #25
                      gp,

                      You'd have to clone players and teach them both styles to really do that, so no. But as with other technical issues, if you see more and more top players using certain technical combinations, that may win the argument.

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                      • #26
                        Straight/Straight grips?

                        Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                        gp,

                        I could be wrong and it could be related to teaching. Not sure also if it's arm strength, shoulder and hip width, or irrelevant. Many of the top women are moving more toward the men's forehand. But the huge majority of the women are bent bent on the bh. Can't think of one since Dementieva who wasn't.


                        What is her grip(s) on her backhand here?

                        don_budge
                        Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                        • #27
                          The Transcript...Rick Macci on the two handed backhand

                          Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                          Would love to get your thoughts on Rick Macci's latest: "Developing an ATP Style Two-Handed Backhand: Part 1"
                          Preparation and the Outside Swing...Rick Macci and Dr. Brian Gordon

                          Through Brian Gordon’s research with the 3D technology it’s very interesting to see some of the commonalities that we are seeing with the two hand backhand because the speed of the game is just so rapid and the balls are so much faster and heavier. You know...the footwork is at an all time high and so is the preparation.

                          It’s very interesting because there is not a wrong way or right way. There’s a better way...there’s a more efficient way to hit the two handed backhand. We’re not saying that you couldn’t do it another way...but we just found out...and this has been effective for me even with kids six or seven years old. I’ve built these mechanics through Brian’s research into their motor pattern.

                          It’s a little trickier on the two hand backhand because you have two hands on the racquet so you’re probably going to be stronger and less things are going to break down bio-mechanically in general because the two hands kind of glue you together. So what I would like to do is explain some of these habits that we want you to get into in hitting the two hand backhand.

                          What’s interesting...Djokovic, Rafa, The Fisherman, Andre, Safin...all of the best two hand backhands in the game, or over the last few years, they are all in the neighborhood. They might have little different flairs or tendencies or idiosynchrocies that they do...because not everybody...this isn’t cloning. That’s never going to happen. But if you are close...or what I call in the neighborhood you are going to get the efficiency that we are looking for.

                          Relation to the ATP Forehand...

                          This is a little different than the forehand but the concept is the same. We are reducing the range of motion. We are reducing the radius of the swing. The racquet is going to the outside...the all important outside. The racquet is going to flip. We are making the stroke shorter. But we are also making everything faster...and these strokes are tailor made to hit the ball on the rise. That’s a big thing in todays game...trying to control the center of the court.

                          Grip Range...

                          How you hold the racquet...obviously you gotta figure that one out. Because there is a bunch of different grips that lead to better...maybe hitting the ball a little cleaner or maybe more spin or it changes the joint angles of the elbow. I don’t really want to get into the grip part of it. You gotta figure that one out. Obviously if you are somewhere continental with the right...eastern or semi-western with the left, that would be kind of where I would want it to go. But that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t do something else.

                          Because you don’t want to change just to change...some people change just to change. And all that they end up with is a change. They end up doing what you wanted but the outcome...they didn’t get a better stroke.

                          Preparation...

                          When we take the racquet back...there is two ways that we feel are really acceptable. Whether you want to pull it straight back and then make the racquet head go above the hands...that would work. Or...you want to take the racquet up right away and have the racquet head above the hands. It’s your call. Obviously the knees are going to be bent and you are in a loaded position.

                          When you go back we want the right arm to be straight...we want you to get it as straight as you can, it should be relaxed straight. I don’t want it to be totally stiff. We want you to feel a stretch on the right shoulder. If there is not a stretch on the right shoulder...I can tell you right now that you don’t have it all of the way back. If you don’t get it all of the way back you are going to do what we call a “bubble loop”...you are going to probably take it back 60 percent...70...and then you are going to go back again. I am not saying that is wrong. But it is not what we want.

                          Left elbow...

                          The left elbow...there has to be a bend in the left elbow. A bend...now how high it is really depends on the ball but there should be a little bit of an elevation. But as long as there is a bend...ok...you’ll be my friend, I guarantee you. So you want this straight...and you want a little bend.

                          Relax...

                          At the end of the day...none of this matters if you are not relaxed. In other words...if you are not going to relax when you play the game you can have the best technique in the world. Even Federer if he not relaxed he is not going to deliver the goods.

                          Spacing...

                          Remember the forehand and how there is space...I am not in here. You gotta have space...but that doesn’t mean that you want to be over here like in the Atlantic Ocean. The hands are around the pelvis...the hands are around the waist area in the preparation. We don’t want you waiting like that...so it might be a little higher than others. You gotta play with that.

                          I’m gonna tell you...just like the forehand. If you are here...you are going that way. I’m not here...I’m not here...it’s to the outside. The strings are down a little bit. You can have it on edge but down a little bit is even healthier. If you want that thing just a little bit more closed just elevate the elbow a little bit.

                          Preparation Recap...

                          Right arm straight. Left elbow bent. Racquet head above the hands to the outside. I feel a stretch...this is the most efficient. The most effective...the optimal way to hit a two handed backhand.

                          Remember the game plan is to reduce the range of motion...to reduce the radius of your swing. To make you stroke shorter but to also make it faster.

                          Eventually this post...this transcript is headed to "The two-handed forehand...and Pancho Segura" thread. The key statements for me as related to the two-handed forehand are highlighted and italicized.

                          Reduce the range of motion...reduce the radius of the swing. Radius? Uncertain about the radius but I understand what Rick means. Thank you Rick for this video...it has proved to be very supportive of an idea that I am having. An idea...nothing new under the sun...don_budge.

                          The Pancho Segura Two Handed Forehand...a verbal description.



                          don_budge
                          Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                          • #28
                            This is amazing! Thank you so much Rick!
                            - It worked well for me but it takes like about 1 month to connect and get used to everything

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                            • #29
                              thanks for posting this classic lesson in this month's issue.
                              love the way macci teaches with his maccism's... makes it easier to remember these tips.

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