A New Teaching System: The Second Serve

[johnyandell]

Well there is game theory and then there is the feeling of having to hit a second serve on big point at a critical moment in serious competition.

[jimlosaltos]

Game theory on risk-reward?

You guys give me too much credit. The numbers are out there but someone would have to compile them...but my impression is second serve speed is going up just like all ball speed.

The idea of hitting two first serves...yeah I read that article. There is an assumption there that these guys are robots and can just produce shots according to certain percentages should they choose to. Obviously the feeling of hitting a first and second serve is different emotionally and psychologically and that's why it's kind of a silly idea in my opinion.

A few random items that seem to fit together re going big on second serve vs cliche of fearing a double fault:

1) I remember as a kid watching b&w TV with Donald Dell announcing. Dell ridiculed someone (Nastasse?) "Top pros almost never hit drop shots or top spin lobs; they're too risky." Seems quaint, watching the ATP WTF where everyone, even Nadal is hitting drop shots (key to win over Wawrinka) and TS lobs.

2) In NFL Chicago Bears with a first-year coach went for it on 4th and 1 in their own territory despite having the lead late, and won the game. NYT article, roughly: "While academics show that this is the right call statistically, and you'll win more often this way, NFL coaches almost never do because of the risk of failure."

3) Game theory shows that given an equal or even slightly worse chance of winning later, instead of winning immediately, most people will chose to defer losing.

[bottle]

Biggest new intelligence for somebody who thinks he already knows the other stuff in this specific youtube comparison: First serve "pronation," i.e., internal rotation of upper arm (primarily) is quicker and more violent on a first serve. Second serve same is milder, a slower, longer "brush." And that is in contrast to other elements that make total energy expenditure equal or even greater in the case of the second serve.

[don_budge]

The Model is Federer...

Some Roger Federer serve analysis...interesting comparison of first and second serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMolTSCUqo

[don_budge]

The transcript first...my thoughts to follow.

Would love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!

Once upon a time...back in The Dark Ages when I was learning Calculus...my father the Mathematics Professor trained me to hand write out the long proofs, theorems, definitions and problems as the repetitiveness of that endeavor made clear to me what I lacked in white light inside the Gold Mine. By writing out these transcripts...I have listened repeatedly to the words of John Yandell and have gotten a higher yet deeper appreciation for his teachings. Thank you...one and all.

This is John Yandell and welcome back to our instructional series on the serve. In the previous articles we have covered to core technical elements to the basic motion. Now let’s turn to the second serve...one of the most vital shots in tennis. Usually one of the weakest at the club level and undoubtably one of the most misunderstood.

Here’s a legitimate question...is there really such a thing as “the second serve”. I mean is the sense is it somehow unique or completely different technically. No the differences in the second serve are a matter of variations and degree. These relate to the toss, the ball position at contact, the racquet path and the upward swing and the amount and type of spin. So let’s see how to take the high level technical motion we presented in the other articles and add the variations you need to develop a reliable, aggressive and effective second serve.

In our series so far we’ve taken a detailed look at the fundamentals of high level serving and what to incorporate for your game and your level and especially how. The fundamentals for the second serve are essentially the same. In reality...the second serve is a variation on the basic motion not a distinct stroke that has to be learned independently.

We can see this by looking closely by looking at the second serve motion of Roger Federer. The common elements with the first serve include the starting stance, the windup, the racquet drop, the rotation of the hitting arm and the use of the legs. The primary difference is an increase in the amount and type of spin particularly the topspin component.

This is accomplished by altering the contact point and the path of the upward swing. The first serve contact point is inside the hitting hand...usually somewhere over the hitting shoulder. It is also usually at the front edge of the body or slightly further out front. The second serve contact point is further to the player’s left usually somewhere over the head or the edge of the head when seen from the front or the rear. It is also further back when viewed from the side...a few inches behind the front plane of the body...again somewhere a somewhere over the head.

As we have seen...the toss travels on an arc, but look at the difference. The first serve toss travels mostly upward and downward. Compare that to the second serve toss which travels significantly further to the player’s left. The second serve toss arcs slightly less forward resulting in the contact behind the edge of the body. From this ball position the player is now able to hit more directly upward to the contact.

Look at the angle of the racquet to the contact. On the first serve the tip is beveled slightly to the player’s left. On the second serve this angle can be doubled. The path of the racquet after contact also shows the more radical upward swing plane. On the first serve the racquet arm comes across the baseline at about a 30 to 45 degree angle, but on the second serve the movement is much more radically to the right.

Notice also that on the second serve the shoulders tend to be more closed to the baseline contact, whereas they have rotated further on the first. The ball placement on the toss is critical for making this happen. Start by modeling your contact point for the second serve...now close your eyes and create a mental image. As you toss the ball, visualize the arc of the toss passing directly through this image of the contact.

Studies show that although the racquet path is substantially different on the second serve...racquet head speed is remarkably similar on both deliveries. It’s important to swing out and not hold back on the second serve and this in fact is the key to generating extra spin. The follow through should be natural and relaxed and in most cases will finish across the body in front of the left leg, similar to the first serve.

The use of high speed video feedback is especially critical for establishing the second serve contact point. Film from both the side and rear views and compare your actual positions to your models. Keep working until they coincide and you are producing the type of heavy, consistent second serve that makes the shot an asset in your game.

So that’s it for the second serve. Next...rhythm. Every player needs to develop his own rhythm. See the factors that go in developing a smooth and effortless delivery and how rhythm leads to consistency and effective serving.

[dipperhitter]

If I get the point of the article when teaching the basic motion, positions, etc you are actually teaching the core of the first serve and the second serve at the same time.

[stotty]

As someone who tends to teach second serve principles very early in development, I think this should be required reading. I'm a firm believer (in the long term residual benefits) of working early on the more left ball placement as it promotes steeper (cartwheeling) shoulder rotation, upward chest angle, inside the hand contact position, and because of the more topspin axis rotation, a real "acceleration", racquet head speed emphasis.

Interesting post. I tend not to teach the second serve early. Sometimes it's debatable whether I will teach a "kick" second serve at all, because I feel unless a student has the potential to do it well, it's likely the serve will just "sit up" to be hit. I feel the mechanics have to be real solid before students embark on learning a "kick" second serve.

I guess a lot depends on the quality/standard of the students in question. I've had a handful of students who have gone on to develop really good second serves....the others I have taught to hit upwards and roll the ball in deep. There's a lot to be said for deep placement...getting the ball safe. I find this can work to top amateur level.

Interesting your thoughts on cartwheeling, upward chest angle, etc. I had never really considered this.

[GeoffWilliams]

As someone who tends to teach second serve principles very early in development, I think this should be required reading. I'm a firm believer (in the long term residual benefits) of working early on the more left ball placement as it promotes steeper (cartwheeling) shoulder rotation, upward chest angle, inside the hand contact position, and because of the more topspin axis rotation, a real "acceleration", racquet head speed emphasis.

Now that's a great post.

[arturohernandez]

Interesting. I have thought a lot about the fact that the serve is really much more of an up concept than most people realize. I have been teaching my son to serve since he was 7 and watched him evolve. He used to hit a sky high serve when he was really young. Today he hits a reasonable spin serve but not quite as much kick yet at 14. But early on I emphasized the up portion of the serve and he gets that. In fact, he is a weird lefty that prefers to hit to a righty's forehand than to the backhand. My sense is that most rec players hit a the slice much more naturally. But as I watch more skilled players and pros they seem to hit much more of a topspin kick serve even on the first serve. The second serve just adds more topspin to it in order to increase the margin.

[10splayer]

Would love to get your thought's on "A New Teaching System: The Second Serve"!

As someone who tends to teach second serve principles very early in development, I think this should be required reading. I'm a firm believer (in the long term residual benefits) of working early on the more left ball placement as it promotes steeper (cartwheeling) shoulder rotation, upward chest angle, inside the hand contact position, and because of the more topspin axis rotation, a real "acceleration", racquet head speed emphasis.

[jryle1]

Wow, this has been a huge help to my second serve since coming out. I've started really focusing on just bringing the toss back a little bit and thanks to the Federer clip I have an unbelievable image in my mind of the racket head moving upwards and the angle of the racket relative to the first serve. Just by doing this and making sure I'm always going up and accelerating the racket my serve speed, spin and consistency has increased on the second serve greatly!


I find it pretty incredible how one image in your mind, maybe two can do this. Keep up the great work John!

[arturohernandez]

I agree. I always thought of the first and second serve as different. When I finally learned the kick serve 15 years ago I developed a horrible hitch. Then I worked on it for three years starting in 2010 and it began to get better. But I found that I could hit either a first or second serve well. They were different in timing and my windup varied because of it. Lately, I have been trying to use the same windup for both serves and just focus on tossing it in a slightly different place and hitting up more. It seems to have helped as now there is less variation in my windup. It feels like a slight different rhythm but it no longer feels like a different serve. So simply by changing the location of the toss a bit, catching it a little lower and hitting up more I can generate a reasonable second serve without having to think about any specific physical technique. And I can accelerate just as much but in a slightly different direction.

[dipperhitter]

Getting back to the article, the variation concept of the first serve and second serve differences simplifies and clarifies. It's has cut a lot of mental clutter out for me when trying to hit a second at a big moment. I love the idea of the second serve having as much racket head speed. The only good choice becomes to go for it.

[jimlosaltos]

Henman?

Is Henman right...or is his personal opinion undermined by evidence? Over to John....

I suspect Henman is overly influenced by watching countryman Murray

IMHO Henman is a couple of years too late; the servers are responding. In that great Delpo-Nole semi at Wimby this year, Delpo was teeing off until Djokovic started going for 116 mph second serves to counter. On WTA side, Bartoli won Wimby basically hitting nothing but first serves.

But, again, it's not all about velocity, I'm also starting to see more variety on second serves, not simply going for more MPH while still hitting kickers. Not all the time, mind you, but more than I recall ever before. For example, going for really wide slice in the ad court on a second serve. I've seen Fed and Nole do this occasionally, but more often lately by younger players, such as Grigor Dimitrov.

Not sure it is a trend yet, but perhaps just starting. Something to look for.

[tennis_chiro]

Women winning just 20% of second serve points

There's been times I've looked at women's stats and thought hitting two first serves was a no-brainer. Sometimes they lose 80% of their second serve points, and I'm talking about top ten women, especially playing against other top ten women.

Barry Mackay made it work well enough to win the NCAA's and the Italian and earn a number one ranking in the US and even a #1 seeding at the French.

don