Interesting to go back and forth to the threads don_budge has re-posted and view the input from don_budge and others. I've learnt a lot more about coaching since I've become an avid poster on the forum. All those things I didn't know at the time of posting the threads...and do know now for having posted them...terrific. What great knowledge I have come away with over the years.
Pancho Segura...fascinating player. He got the better of Lew Hoad most of the time so he must have been deceptively good. I have read the Pancho article about his grips but will read it again before I comment...it's a chunk to take in.
Some two-handed forehand players put their dominant hand above the other on the grip, like Pancho and Gene Mayer. Others such as Seles have the dominant hand beneath their other hand. I always think Seles's way is like have two backhands. Pancho's way would seem to give much less reach?
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Shaping forehands...another thread started by licensedcoach
The shape of the forehand...from Pancho Segura...to Oscar Wegner...to Backswings...to The Shape of the Forehand.
Another really good discussion about the forehand stroke.
Shaping Forehands...
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Post #2 from "Backswings" thread...
An unstable forehand vs. a stable backhand...Why???
Let me preface my comments with this...this is a very impressive and talented girl for the age of eight. That being said let’s examine the problem which appears to be that the forehand is less reliable than the backhand. So the question is...what is it about her forehand technique (backswing) that makes it less stable? If we can identify this, then how do we correct the problem to stabilize the stroke?
With respect to Dyna’s (short for dynamo) forehand there is one aspect of it that I truly like and it just so happens that it is the most critical part of the stroke, in my opinion. I am referring to her “get in position” position...after the backswing and before the forward swing. Without consideration about what has happened before this point in her swing and about what happens afterwards, this is a truly well balanced and dynamic position to be in as she makes her move to the ball. I like the position of her racquet, shoulders and feet. She is in a nice sitting (derriere out, upper body leaning forward) position for balance as well.
While I genuinely admire her position at the point of “get in position” there are some real issues going on before and after...and it is these issues that are probably contributing to her instability and unreliability on her forehand side. Fortunately the issues have some fairly simple remedies...simplify the motion.
OK...let’s try to sort this thing out. From her ready position I think if you dial her grip back just a bit she will be in a better position to initiate her backswing, but I don’t feel this is a big factor at this point. Her problem and instability is in the manner in which she takes her racquet back to “get in position”...and the surprising result of all of her extra rigamarole is that she actually gets herself into perfect position in the video. But of course the ball is being perfectly fed to her each time so that she can perform this miraculous backswing without throwing herself off balance or tying herself into a knot as she begins to unwind going forward.
So...what exactly is she doing? It looks like she initiates her forehand backswing with a lift of both her right hand and the racquet head. Her right hand almost appears to be making a service toss motion...it looks as if you could balance a pizza on it throughout the entire swing. Her left elbow makes a rather large arch before finally settling into position to go forward as well. Too much unnecessary movement that contributes nothing of a positive nature in terms of energy to the ball via her swinging racquet.
Instead of lifting the hand and racquet...I recommend that she push the head of her racquet directly back into position to make her swing. Martina Hingus and Roger Federer both initiate the backswing on the forehand with what appears to be a subtle push with the free hand and at the same time they use their shoulders to accomplish a full unit turn...the racquet arm elbows are relatively stationary and stay relatively close to their bodies. Their wrists are almost immediately in position as they begin their turn to the ball and their wrists will stay in this position until they are in position to go forward with the racquet. Both Hingus and Federer have their racquets in an “L” position in their backswing practically from their ready position to their “get in position”. Notice that neither of them are lifting the racquet head any higher than their head and their right hands are basically waist high throughout their backswing. The height of the backswing may change with the height of the ball to be played but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the backswing has to get bigger...only higher or lower.
The little Dyna has all kinds of funny business going on with her lifting approach to her backswing and one of the most unstable aspects of her backswing is that the racquet head is lagging so far behind her hand and her shoulders that the timing must be awfully good when she transitions to going forward. She makes all of the necessary compensations quite nicely when she is standing in one spot but if she is being moved around the court...it looks as if the foundation of such a backswing might become very shaky if out of position. With the head of her racquet so high in the air if she has any kind of thinking opponent (do eight year olds think tactically?) on the other side of the net they might be looking to exploit such a swing with low balls or short balls.
The best backswings have an ample enough motion backwards in order to generate the most energy going forwards. You don’t hit anything with the backswing. You must get her backswing under control, perhaps in a nice “L” position, so that she can get into her nice “get in position” position so that her forehand “is repeatable under the vast number of possibilities and conditions that a tennis player is due to play their shots”. For a swing to be repeatable the tolerances in the variation are tight and they seem to get even tighter in a close match when nerves get tight and perhaps a little bit of fear creeps into the swing. Statistically speaking you would be well advised to get her to tighten up her three sigma control limits...in order that she can repeat her backswing under any circumstances. Her current method is pretty wild and could easily veer out of control if she is even a bit off balance. Minimize motion to maximize control.
The reason that I asked for a look on the backhand side is because I like to see some commonality in all of a tennis players backswing tendencies. Dyna’s backswing on the backhand is pretty much straight back and straight through. Less can go wrong with such a simple technique and this is probably why she is more stable on the backhand side. It looks complementary if both the forehand and the backhand tend to match. It may make it easier for her if she was to modify both sides to share some similarities on both sides...get her into a modified “L” take away on both sides.
If there is a consistency between all of the backswings in a player’s game, perhaps it is even possible that the tendency to repeat the same motion will have a philosophical grounding eventually as well...an inner rhythm. If a player can relate to sound fundamentals every time they take their racquet back in preparation for a shot...so much the better. A good example of this is the manner in which Federer produces drop shots...his backswing on the forehand looks pretty much the same as his normal full swing and then all of a sudden he is merely passing the racquet head under the ball with a deft touch. His backswing for a forehand volley looks very similar to the initial move he makes in preparation for a groundstroke. Federer’s and Hingus’s backswings look like they share some real similarities throughout their whole respective repertoire of shots.
To prepare little Dyna for a change in weakening her grip somewhat, it may help to get her to practice taking a lot of balls in the air...volleys. I recommend also giving her a lot of practice in the middle of the court and try to encourage her to use a volley like stroke on these balls as well...perhaps practicing for a future net approach game. Teach her to hit under spin from an “L” backswing position...Federer/Hingus style.
One drill that I like to use with a more accomplished player is to have them start on the baseline and using one ball try to do the following without missing, hit a ball and advance forward, hit another ball in the mid-court (either volley or half volley) then advancing to the net to hit a volley or two, then immediately back up into position to hit another mid-court ball then moving backwards to finally hit another ball behind the baseline then immediately going forwards again on the next ball to repeat the process. It’s good to practice moving forwards and backwards as well as to practice moving side to side. This drill is also about the backswing...behind the baseline it is a full backswing and as one moves forward closer to the net the backswing gets shorter and shorter until you are finally at the net, volleying with very little backswing at all. But even with the difference in the length of the backswings there should be some resemblance between all of them.
Your young Dyna shows something very special in her “get in position” position and her ball sense...Stotty. For an eight year old she has fantastic dynamics and it looks like you had a lot to do with that...nice work! You may create more stability in her swing with a modified "L" backswing which will put her in a better position to go forward. But then we must talk about her foot work and her weight transfer. It sounds like a long story...but she is so young and there is plenty of time...it's a lifetime endeavor.
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Backswings...Dr. Watson
A thread entitled "Backswings" initiated by our Sherlock Holmes in Great Britain...or shall I say Dr. Watson. One of my favorite discussions from the forum.
Backswings...
Connecting the dots, the three little dots...synthesizing...Pancho Segura two hand forehand...Oscar Wegner two handed backhand from scratch...licensedcoach "Backswings".
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Oscar Wegner on the Two Handed backhand from scratch...
Interesting little five minute video on how to teach the two hand backhand. Brilliantly simple.
Brief summary:
1. Catch ball underhanded with the left hand.
2. Throw back ball to teacher with the follow through of the throw to other side of opposite cheek.
3. Grip racquet with index finger of the left hand through the throat of the racquet.
4. With both hands on the racquet practice lifting the racquet to the same position where the left hand followed through to the opposite side of the cheek.
5. For emphasis of left hand dominance put the right hand behind the back.
6. Using left hand lift racquet into ball.
7. Using both hands lift racquet into ball.
8. Alternate using one hand and two hands.
9. Feed balls to student walking backwards and forwards.
10. Feeding a ball with student turning back to starting point with racquet held over the shoulder after the hit, then returning the racquet to the belly button for the beginning position.
"Simplicity makes it powerful." -Oscar Wegner
Repost to illustrate a coming point...
Last edited by don_budge; 11-01-2013, 11:21 PM.Leave a comment:
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Oscar Wegner on the two Handed backhand from scratch
So here is Oscar Wegner on the two handed backhand from scratch...to continue my thought. From the Pancho Segura two handed forehand to the Oscar Wegner two handed backhand from scratch...connecting the dots.
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The two handed forehand...and Pancho Segura
For private reasons of my own I have become curious about the two handed forehand...so I looked it up. I found this interesting article. bottle...throw this one into your bag of tricks.
I'll tell you why...shortly.
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