Oscar Wegner and Bill Tilden

[gzhpcu]

Wegner says:

Tracking the ball as long as possible, especially after the bounce.

In this old instruction video by Bill Tilden, towards the end of the clip, when he plays his forehand, he seems to be doing just that... Even though not a great fan of Tilden's, he seems much better in this video than I thought...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhCbhDdbqbE

[GeoffWilliams]

He would not win a high school match against a good player today, and he was a child molester, on top of the weak strokes/game.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

I am not defending Tilden's criminal behavior. I am only analyzing his tennis game.

Of course, players today are more advanced than players in Tilden's era. However, near the end of the video provided here, we can see Tilden's timing on the forehand side. Actually, many ATP & WTA pros today could learn from Tilden's tracking of the ball (similar to the way my great old coach Peter Scott taught, & now Oscar Wegner teaches). Then after the ball bounces on the ground, Tilden makes a loop & swings in a continuous motion, with no kink or stop.

Tilden swings all at once -- which I call a 1-piece swing. Too many pros today use that "unit turn" preparation & tracking of the ball, so that their forehands look like 2 different movements, with a stop between the 2. I am ready to entertain opinions that range from how bad Tilden is, compared to current players, to Tilden being a lot better than he looks to our modern eyes.

[bottle]

Vacuuming Up the Oncoming Ball

As I was taught by a USPTA pro, Jim Kacian, there is nothing wrong with a big overhand loop or a lower takeback followed by a smaller loop as shown here in the two Tilden forehands starting at 1:44 . Jim even had a forehand where he tapped the court two or three times then went into a small streamlined loop.

From my own experience I know one can simply take the racket straight back-- beginner's technique many would say-- or use a small down and up pendulum like John McEnroe, thought of as a beginner by no one.

A player can do what he or she wants, in other words, and I'm very impressed by the tracking shown here-- not only on account of its lateness but the fact that it's not more static as in the wonderful examples of Monica Seles and Marion Bartoli.

My interpretation of Seles has always been, that, to mark her contact point she sets the racket still out front on either side and then employs continuous motion back and forward from there.

In Tilden's forehands here the racket doesn't stop but does take aim in a very dynamic and vacuum-like way. (Let's go top of the line and call the vacuum a Hoover rather than a Bissell.)

Tilden's slow measured backswing vacuums up trajectory, pace and any other information associated with the oncoming ball. His hand and brain work together.

The strokes only get more mechanical or should I say "animal" with beginning of the late, small loop.

Since I consider Oscar my generous friend, I'm very familiar with his enemies or haters of which there seem too many (just as in the case of Tilden) but remember, I've been a teacher in maximum and medium security prisons and liked a lot of the guys especially the ones who protected me as if I was one of them.

Oscar haters-- when they deign to get technical-- say that bounce is too late for one to start taking one's racket back.

The answer for them is to do like Tilden here and start moving the racket in a slow timed way long before the bounce and as soon as one is capable of marshalling information, then undergo a complete character change and turn their hatred toward politicians.

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

Thank you, bottle. I was particularly interested in your old coach Jim Kacien's idea of tapping the ground a couple of times with racket, before backswing loop starts. As far as Oscar Wegner goes, I have always enjoyed Oscar because he has shown the courage to say things that are "different" than the norm.

[gzhpcu]

As with many stroke types, there is lots of room for individuality. What we need to focus on, are to identify the core fundamentals, and, this is what John is good at...

[stotty]

Good point

As with many stroke types, there is lots of room for individuality. What we need to focus on, are to identify the core fundamentals, and, this is what John is good at...

Good point.

It's also about recognising what's fundamental from what isn't...separating style from technique. I'm am not sure as coaches we are as good as we think we are in this department.

[bottle]

For three doubles sets the other day I played with a down and up initial forehand backswing like Tilden's in the video.

Didn't do badly but also didn't have my usual quota of forehand winners.

Then I realized that my regular forehand has measuring/siting devices built into it that maybe I haven't been valuing enough. It's always fun to return to one's more accustomed shot except that one may ask oneself, "How come I decided to deviate?"

To always be on the lookout for "some little thing that might make a big difference" in the words of my 100-year-old former tennis playing friend Frieda Johnston.

One permanent effect these discussions are having on my game: Revived thought to siting or forward set along with more ease and continuity and authority within the delayed, actual, more streamlined back-and-forward ground stroke.

[gzhpcu]

To always be on the lookout for "some little thing that might make a big difference" in the words of my 100-year-old former tennis playing friend Frieda Johnston.

Yes, an example is the role of hip rotation for groundstrokes. Any degree of hip rotation multiplies racket head spreed by a factor of about 10 to 16. This is measuring from the axis of rotation of the body to the middle of the racket head on a groundstroke (depending on how far the impact point is from the center of the body...). Important for the serve, but less of a leverage factor, since the racket head is closer to the axis of rotation than on a groundstroke.

[bottle]

In a wide one-hand backhand, well hit, there will be more hip rotation, and with contact point closer in front of the body less or none. How important is this factor? Should we line up to hit from wide or opt for cleanness of contact in something more in front?

[worldsbesttenniscoach]

Doing this drill (tapping the racket on the ground a couple of times before u hit your topspin forehand, as Jim Kacien advocates) is a drill that could help even the best players in the world. It teaches players to track the ball with strings more towards net (as opposed to "tracking" the ball the way Macci & Nainkin teach in their "unit turn" forehands). Kacien's drill also gives the player the confidence to wait longer before starting the swing, then have a free-flowing "all at once" swing (as opposed to Macci & Nainkin's unit turn stop, the try to get the racket started again from a stationary position).

It is just a drill, but the ideas from that drill are very valuable, & can be transferred to actual match strokes. Of course, in a match, you should not tap the racket on the ground as the ball approaches. But the rhythm that Kacien's drill teaches can be valuable.

[bottle]

Nice

I hope Jim Kacian sees this now that he has longsince moved on from giving too many tennis lessons to becoming the foremost editor and publisher, in the United States, of haiku poetry, most likely from Winchester, Virginia.

(And if you do see this, Jim, please send me an email at jgescher@comcast.net)

As I remember it, in the middle of a lesson he was giving me, Jim just tapped his Prince Magnesium mid-size against the court three or four times. Those Magnesia kept arriving in the mail. Prince kept sending them to Jim for free. My lesson was free, too.

The taps of this racket would make a racket. Then the same racket would make an incredible zing as Jim hit his big topspin. I'm telling you, the acoustics associated with those Magnesiums or Magnesia and Jim's active wrist were incredible. One could see why neither Martina Navratilova nor John McEnroe nor the Williams College coach with whom Jim, former captain of Bates won the annual USPTA tournament, minded being his doubles partner (Navratilova in Virginia, McEnroe in Maine at about 15 years old).

After the second, third or fourth tap Jim looped back and forward into a gorgeous forehand.

I saw him do it in rallies with other students and hitting partners. (I'm assuming self-feed the first time he demonstrated it for me.) And I know he did it while rallying with me. The taps were good for intimidation-- a rattlesnake just before a big strike-- I'm still intimidated.

Don't think Jim turned it into a drill but he should have. I wish he had made me do it and repeat it until I mastered it because of the very points that WBTC makes about it.

I tried it on my own but gave up too soon.

Now that I'm grown up I'll try it again.