Serve and Volley: Summary

[gzhpcu]

Clearly thought out, well written, and cogently presented, this was a commendable series of articles. The viewpoint and approach were didactic without being preachy or arrogant, something we readers and tennis hackers appreciate.

As I think I have said before, this represents a different kind of tennis journalism within this format. I believe it adds to and improves this site which already is, without argument, the best tennis reference on the net.

Great job. Hope to read more from the author.

Well said and ditto to that! Keep it up Kyle...

[don_budge]

To the "Free Thinkers" left...

Originally posted by one blake_b:

http://www.essentialtennis.com/313/

The rest of us are so deeply influenced by the opinions of others it a job to keep a straight line.

I sort of noticed the same thing Stotty. The tennis world is not exactly the most fertile ground for intellectual thought or even the freedom to express yourself.

To voice an opinion that isn't in lock step with the "modern paradigm" is inviting ridicule from the Neanderthal lot. The low brow lot. Those that believe that they can "guffaw" you into silence by posting some stupid stuff without backing it up with logic. The news media is pretty much running on the same principle these days.

One frequently hears of the "evolution" of the game. We have witnessed the disappearance of serve and volley...it didn't happen overnight. These are topics that need to be discussed freely. It's about The Game...not you or I.

[klacr]

Originally posted by one blake_b:

http://www.essentialtennis.com/313/

I sort of noticed the same thing Stotty. The tennis world is not exactly the most fertile ground for intellectual thought or even the freedom to express yourself.

To voice an opinion that isn't in lock step with the "modern paradigm" is inviting ridicule from the Neanderthal lot. The low brow lot. Those that believe that they can "guffaw" you into silence by posting some stupid stuff without backing it up with logic. The news media is pretty much running on the same principle these days.

One frequently hears of the "evolution" of the game. We have witnessed the disappearance of serve and volley...it didn't happen overnight. These are topics that need to be discussed freely. It's about The Game...not you or I.

Funny that you posted something from Essential Tennis. I was college classmates with the creator of that site Ian Westerman.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

You can serve/volley all you want, but you won't win a slam doing it. Sampras/edberg/mac/rafter/becker/etc., wouldn't win today either, a slam, unless it was on wimbledon on a rainy day. It's going to take the next evolution to do it: swinging volleys, using a uni grip, off both sides, and a 130mph kick serve. Please god, give me a 130mph kick serve/twister. I'd start qualifying even at 58yrs. old.

[klacr]

Will wait patiently for the next generation.

Serve and volley on every point will be tough though you are right. The skill of returners nowadays is better than it has ever been at the top of the game. Federer served and volleyed much more in the second set and had some great results with it. Federer won 82 per cent (16/21) of approach points, 88 per cent (21/24) of serve and volley points, but only 34 per cent (22/65) from the back of the court Sadly, couldn't make much of a dent in Tsonga's service games either. Get a serve and volleyer with a decent return game and you may have something.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[10splayer]

You can serve/volley all you want, but you won't win a slam doing it. Sampras/edberg/mac/rafter/becker/etc., wouldn't win today either, a slam, unless it was on wimbledon on a rainy day. It's going to take the next evolution to do it: swinging volleys, using a uni grip, off both sides, and a 130mph kick serve. Please god, give me a 130mph kick serve/twister. I'd start qualifying even at 58yrs. old.

Agree with the first part of this. The guys are doing what they need to do to win. Like it or not, the current game dictates that...It's really that simple. For some to question Fed's (for example) tactics (after the career he's had) is almost laughable to me.

I would take issue with the second part, however, as i believe swinging volleys, uni grip (not sure what that is) will be part of the equation. There skill set (in a conventional) since will just be better.

[10splayer]

Will wait patiently for the next generation.

Serve and volley on every point will be tough though you are right. The skill of returners nowadays is better than it has ever been at the top of the game. Federer served and volleyed much more in the second set and had some great results with it. Federer won 82 per cent (16/21) of approach points, 88 per cent (21/24) of serve and volley points, but only 34 per cent (22/65) from the back of the court Sadly, couldn't make much of a dent in Tsonga's service games either. Get a serve and volleyer with a decent return game and you may have something.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Yes! The game tends to work in cycles (style wise) and at the current moment, the return and groundstroke game reigns supreme....which to me, is not necessarily a bad thing. Thankfully,. the days of a Kevin Curren/Boris Becker match are a thing of the past...


To me, the take home point of your series is NOT what the pro's are doing right now, or questioning there tactics. But that serve and volley, and the requisite skill building for the average club player, is not only viable, but necessary..hell, most play double anyway.


Further, that as teachers, we need to continue to be open to building the necessary skill (if applicable with certain students) to be more of a serve and volley type..The work we do now, may turn the tide in regards to what is done at the next level in the future. (in jr development)

[gzhpcu]

You can serve/volley all you want, but you won't win a slam doing it. Sampras/edberg/mac/rafter/becker/etc., wouldn't win today either, a slam, unless it was on wimbledon on a rainy day.

Not sure about that. The Rafter - Agassi match I posted shows Rafter beating Agassi. Are we saying Agassi would be outclassed today?

[stotty]

You can serve/volley all you want, but you won't win a slam doing it. Sampras/edberg/mac/rafter/becker/etc., wouldn't win today either, a slam, unless it was on wimbledon on a rainy day. It's going to take the next evolution to do it: swinging volleys, using a uni grip, off both sides, and a 130mph kick serve. Please god, give me a 130mph kick serve/twister. I'd start qualifying even at 58yrs. old.

Agree with the first part of this. The guys are doing what they need to do to win. Like it or not, the current game dictates that...It's really that simple. For some to question Fed's (for example) tactics (after the career he's had) is almost laughable to me.

I would take issue with the second part, however, as i believe swinging volleys, uni grip (not sure what that is) will be part of the equation. There skill set (in a conventional) since will just be better.

What if someone with a placed 140mph serve comes along? Someone who can volley well behind it? Someone with impetus. Try to imagine someone like Jerzy (with a little more up top perhaps) schooled in serve and volley...got the idea. Now imagine him on a grass court. With the right surface and toolkit it might be possible...it just might.

I think it was Doug who said Federer wins most of his matches not thinking too much about tactics. He's just overwhelms other players with superior shotmaking and has been for the last ten years. Let's face it, when (most days) you're so much better than everyone else, who needs tactics.

Of course he does need tactics against Nadal. He needs them big time. I know the match-up isn't good for Federer but he might take a leaf out of Dimitrov's book.

Earlier this year, Dimitrov sliced penetratingly to Nadal's backhand which often brought up a reply that allowed Dimitrov to run around and belt a forehand...he repeatedly wrestled control of the rallies from Nadal by using this tactic. You would think Federer could do the same. I just wonder if Federer has ever considered those who have had success over Nadal and pondered the tactics they've used.

[klacr]

Yes! The game tends to work in cycles (style wise) and at the current moment, the return and groundstroke game reigns supreme....which to me, is not necessarily a bad thing. Thankfully,. the days of a Kevin Curren/Boris Becker match are a thing of the past...


To me, the take home point of your series is NOT what the pro's are doing right now, or questioning there tactics. But that serve and volley, and the requisite skill building for the average club player, is not only viable, but necessary..hell, most play double anyway.


Further, that as teachers, we need to continue to be open to building the necessary skill (if applicable with certain students) to be more of a serve and volley type..The work we do now, may turn the tide in regards to what is done at the next level in the future. (in jr development)

Thanks for your comments 10splayer and for following along for the entire series. Certainly shows your commitment to the game and to learning. You make some great points. The game certainly does work in cycles.

You mentioned about how this serve and volley game is NOT what pros are doing now. And you are 100% correct. Which is exactly why it's important to understand and embrace it. Talk to any top coach and they will tell you that if you are teaching kids the game as it is played today, it will no longer be the game 10 years from now when they are finishing juniors and going to the next level. It's important to know the whole game so we can share it and expand upon it. The work we do now will undoubtedly affect the future of tennis and lives of our players. Maybe not change tennis globally, but for one student it could be the world.

John and I saw an opportunity for a comprehensive serve and volley series. Kind of like when you see an opportunity in a match, mental lapse by an opponent or maybe a weak floating ball, you gotta take it and strike with conviction right? Make things happen. Hopefully that's what this series was able to provide to you. Thanks for reading and keep up the thread contributions.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Alternative 9-point tie-break...The Original

9-POINT TIE BREAKER

The USTA 9-point Sudden Death System will be used in all matches when a match score reaches 6-6 in games in any set. The procedure is as follows for doubles.

Assume teams “A” and “B” are playing. Team “B”, player 4, has finished serving and the score has reached 6-6 in games. Sudden Death begins.

--- Teams DO NOT CHANGE ENDS OF COURTS.

--- Team “A” player 1 due to serve next in normal rotation begins serving Sudden Death. She serves 2 points.

.--- Team “B” player 4 due to serve in that court serves 2 points. Teams exchange ends of court.

--- Team “A” player serves 2 points. Team gaining 5 points first wins the set 7-6.

--- If necessary, Team “B” player 2 serves final three points. The receiving team has the choice which court will receive the ninth and deciding point. (In doubles, this naturally determines which player will receive the deciding serve.)

--- The team who served points 3 and 4 begins serving the next set. ---

(i.e. The team who serves first in the tiebreaker, serves second in the next set.
In the event all three sets in a three-set match go to Sudden Death, a racket should be spun to determine which team commences serving the final Sudden Death.


I actually saw John McEnroe play one of these tie-breaks in what is now an infamous match. He was qualifying for the U. S. Open for the first time...I believe that he was 17 so it must have been 1975. The match was against one Zan Guerry who was a really tough nosed competitor in his own right.

The match came down to 6-6 in the third set and 4-4 in the tie-breaker...double match point. Somehow...I cannot remember the exact circumstances but I believe that McEnroe indeed writes about this particular match in his memoir, "You Cannot Be Serious"...but the match point is played and McEnroe believes that he has won the match. But Guerry sought for an overrule from the umpire and received it so the match point was replayed and to McEnroe's great dismay (if you can imagine) Guerry won the replayed match point and the match to boot. Not only that but he had entry into the main draw at the Open played at The Westside Tennis Club in Forest Hills. This was one of the two years that the tournament was played on Har-Tru.

This match was being played at some Tennis Club outside of the main event and we were in the parking lot when a clearly upset young John McEnroe came by himself past us. He was kicking at the gravel just a bit and I said to him..."you got robbed." He then realized the monumental clarity of what I said to him...to my words to heart and proceeded to become one of the greatest tennis players of all time.

How's that for a tie-break story?

[gzhpcu]

He then realized the monumental clarity of what I said to him...to my words to heart and proceeded to become one of the greatest tennis players of all time.

Aaah... now I see the connection for the fascination...


Guerry responds:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/200...ree-clay-court

[klacr]

One match can change everything. McEnroe still remembers that match to this day. I'd like to know how the final match point played out. Who served? McEnroe or Guerry? Serve and volley?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[vrc10s]

s and v

You can serve/volley all you want, but you won't win a slam doing it. Sampras/edberg/mac/rafter/becker/etc., wouldn't win today either, a slam, unless it was on wimbledon on a rainy day. It's going to take the next evolution to do it: swinging volleys, using a uni grip, off both sides, and a 130mph kick serve. Please god, give me a 130mph kick serve/twister. I'd start qualifying even at 58yrs. old.

Isn't 130 mile an hour kick serve what Sampras had? So maybe he could still serve and volley on lots of points. Newer racquets would make his serve even better!

[GeoffWilliams]

He had a fast top slice, at first serve rpms: 2800 and second: 4800 rpm, but the average 1st mph was: 119mph, and 2nd: 108mph. Just accurate spin serves, but on the lines at will due to the safe and aggressive nature of the topslice. No one has ever hit a 130mph twist/kick. The newer frames would have given him an advantage for sure, as the babolats are stiffer, as are the wilsons, and all are custom made for a player of that stature. I'd say he would have chosen: 98 sq. in., 65 ra, 389g, silicone in the butt, gut/alu strung at 61/59, 18 x 20, and a non polarized wt. set up, with a high twist wt., and swing wt. Something similar to feds new set up.