Net attack...

[bobbyswift]

Trying to understand the role of the shoulder and elbow at contact in a slapshot in hockey. Hockeyscout do you see similarity to two handed backhand at contact point.

[hockeyscout]

Trying to understand the role of the shoulder and elbow at contact in a slapshot in hockey. Hockeyscout do you see similarity to two handed backhand at contact point.

Here is a bit of an issue, the process I use is VERY intuitive, so its tough to explain for me, as I just do it and to date it's working!

So, its hard for me to explain, however, if you delivered me the athlete, I'd just know what to do what needed to be done and set a pathway to get from what I saw as an A - B - C progression.

My advise on the slapshot, I would not take any elements of the slap shot over to tennis, ever. If you did, you'd rip out an athletes arm.

Lets talk about the slapshot.

The key to the slapshot is athletic blocking IMO -- that is one key to it.

First off, you don't block with hands, you block your hip, and the hands fly.

The trick to hockey is to block, create whip to the shaft, which will increase velocity to the blade (you call it the head in tennis).

When you are playing hockey, you want to think of the blade (head) like a bullwhip.

So what you do is go in, and your hands will fly through, whack, like a whip.

Blocking is a way of converting energy effictively.

Now in 100 meter sprinting, you NEVER block, however, when you are high jumping your last step is always a block.

So, what you do is you bring your hips to, and then you hold you hips, and the hands come through.

So, block and releasing is pretty important anyways you slice it across the board with this slapshot.

Okay, what you are doing in the role of a slapshot is actually kind of like a block. In other words, hmmm, you come forward and you hit the puck, and then release.

So their is what I would call a peak, and a block at contact. So, what this all does is it creates an additional whip - velocity in the blade to the slap and stick (or what you would call the hit), as opposed to a sweep or half snap follow through like a normal shot (wrister, snap or backhand).

What you are doing is peaking your power to the ice - puck on a slap shot, where as in other shots the peak is out in front (snap shot and wrist shot) because the puck is still on the stick an its a longer motion.

I guess I would almost call the snapper and wrist a bit of a throw even if the technical experts hate that analogy.

What the hell do they know anyways, I haven't seen an expert wire the puck as hard as me!

IMO, a wrister and snap shot in hockey, is you are holding it, and throwing it like a pitch in baseball.

don_budge could correlate as he knows baseball, and has seen a bit of Gordie Howe's wrist shot living in Detroit. Gordie by the way had a great wrister, and he could play baseball better than most of the Tigers. He was a MLB level hitter, and took the baseball hitting mechanics, and converted them to his wrist shot, or maybe vise - versa.

Okay, so back to the slapshot, with the slapper you are wacking it.

So, the peak of the power at the puck, or as experts would say, at the ice, and first contact. It should immediately be off the stick!

Now, I did not really answer your question about what you are doing with the shoulder and elbow in hockey!

So, what you are doing is you are loading the hip, bring the shoulder and elbow, and then you whip the hip to get the shot. Now, you also need to do a lot of stuff in the backswing of the slapshot (yes, the slapper is more complex than a golf swing, especially the take back, and truthfully this generation of players is really poor in this regards), and then you need to slide your hands (this is a hard thing to do, in hockey you always need to slide the hands up and down the shaft to do a million things with various skillsets in taking passes, shooting, wrist, snap and all the rest).

In other words its a game of constant fricking leveraging, and its got to be exact within millimeters, and the blades sweet spot is so small, and to top it off you need to do it by feel, and when you do need to look down you better be sure where you are in relation to your opposition so you don't get hammered into next week with a stiff check. That is the fear of the slapper, looking down, and getting rocked!

Lets talk about the hand movement more. I roughly have an American audience here, so I can explain it in baseball terms. The reason why you move your hand down the handle of the stick on the slapshot to shorten your lever, and also in a way, hmmmm, its almost like a floating fulcrum. So, let me give you an example. Lets say Ty Cobb, the infamous baseball player. He didn't have the kind of power of other legends, however, had more doubles than anyone. He used what I call a split grip in baseball bat because he thought he could control the head of the bat better, almost, but not quite like a BUNT where you got flipping great control! So, what you are doing is you are almost using your lower hand like a fulcrum.

So, hockey, and tennis, very different in many ways. I assume you are trying to draw a correlation, which is fantastic. You have come over to the other side now hehe. I think you are trying to make the connection between the act of the puck at contact and a tennis ball at contact. IMO, their are to many differences.

The issue we have to all solve is how we are going to make the racket more effective. Hockey doesn't apply great to tennis in this specified area, the slap shot.

How to solve racket issues? I see muscle group setups and activations as the way to go long term, and I think I'm seeing meteoric improvement with the racket head as a result (which is everyones goal).

Anyways, we've probably outlined why woman's backhands can be so VERY efficient!

Two hands on, one hand closer, and you can go cross court super easy, and the reason is of course as we all know is the bottom hand acts a wee little bit like a fulcrum in our specture of training.

[bobbyswift]

Thank you for the detailed answer.

[hockeyscout]

What are you trying to do out of curiosity with the hockey movements?

[bobbyswift]

Trying to understand in aright handed backhand the arms at contact. Have trouble with the right arm braking and bending. It appears that contact the scapula is involving to create the shape of the arms. As rotation occurs in hockey slapshot looking at shape of bend and seeing similarity, Wondering when Brian says pull does he mean laterally. Again this seems to be what I see in the slapshot. Any advice?

[hockeyscout]

Trying to understand in aright handed backhand the arms at contact. Have trouble with the right arm braking and bending. It appears that contact the scapula is involving to create the shape of the arms. As rotation occurs in hockey slapshot looking at shape of bend and seeing similarity, Wondering when Brian says pull does he mean laterally. Again this seems to be what I see in the slapshot. Any advice?

I will go into more detail on this tomorrow. Anything I mention above help, or clarify?

[vrc10s]

Slice BH

Back to original focus of this thread...

Did anyone noticed how many slice backhands Lopez hit against Kudla? He even hit a slice backhand approach when he was down match point. It was about 6 feet short of the baseline but still won the point for Lopez.

[johnyandell]

I would love to be wrong about this. I love the way Lopez plays. But Kudla is not Nadal.

It may be that being used to the downward pro slice, there is no one who can naturally hit thru it on the Rosewall model, but I still think that if it worked players would be doing it it a lot more--they are the ones that figure these things out...

Remember just because a ball is shorter doesn't mean it's that much slower and often it means it has more spin.

Situationally it can still work. But this is why I think the swinging topspin volley is the next shot in net attack. There is some kid out there that doesn't know he is not supposed to be able to hit heavy topspin out of the air off his shoe laces.

[tennis_chiro]

Rosewallian or Federerian slice. What would you call this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG60Wf8RHFk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q4wrkbbjUI

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

I was only able to see the second clip, but I like it. I don't think it is quite Rosewallian as you are coming down on the ball a lot, but you are much more penetrating and level than the usual slice in today's pro game. Combined with the additional weight your own body mass and long lever arms bring to the shot, I would think your slice backhand must be a true aggressive weapon, even if not quite Rosewallian; but it is a lot closer to my Rosewall model than the one slice we usually see from Federer. And combined with your proclivity for getting to the net, it has to make a formidable approach shot and I'm sure you have a beautiful carioca footwork pattern to use it in transition. Too bad you don't have some video of that move, especially if you could set the camera up behind the opponent so we see the pressure of the shot coming in low and deep!

don

[klacr]

Back to original focus of this thread...

Did anyone noticed how many slice backhands Lopez hit against Kudla? He even hit a slice backhand approach when he was down match point. It was about 6 feet short of the baseline but still won the point for Lopez.

It was an awesome match to watch. Lopez is a player that intrigues me immensely. Love his mindset and ability to embrace the net, not stay away from it.

I would love to be wrong about this. I love the way Lopez plays. But Kudla is not Nadal.

It may be that being used to the downward pro slice, there is no one who can naturally hit thru it on the Rosewall model, but I still think that if it worked players would be doing it it a lot more--they are the ones that figure these things out...

Remember just because a ball is shorter doesn't mean it's that much slower and often it means it has more spin.

Situationally it can still work. But this is why I think the swinging topspin volley is the next shot in net attack. There is some kid out there that doesn't know he is not supposed to be able to hit heavy topspin out of the air off his shoe laces.

John always has a way of clearing our heads with matter of fact and well researched experience. All the hypotheticals and daydreaming stops with him as he tells us what truly happens. And its hard to argue against his expertise, although its fun trying.

I was only able to see the second clip, but I like it. I don't think it is quite Rosewallian as you are coming down on the ball a lot, but you are much more penetrating and level than the usual slice in today's pro game. Combined with the additional weight your own body mass and long lever arms bring to the shot, I would think your slice backhand must be a true aggressive weapon, even if not quite Rosewallian; but it is a lot closer to my Rosewall model than the one slice we usually see from Federer. And combined with your proclivity for getting to the net, it has to make a formidable approach shot and I'm sure you have a beautiful carioca footwork pattern to use it in transition. Too bad you don't have some video of that move, especially if you could set the camera up behind the opponent so we see the pressure of the shot coming in low and deep!

don

I do like my slice. Anything on that backhand wing really. Then again, I like every shot I have, perfect or not. More video to come in the future Don

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Situation…situation…situation. The net approacher mantra...

Back to original focus of this thread...

Did anyone noticed how many slice backhands Lopez hit against Kudla? He even hit a slice backhand approach when he was down match point. It was about 6 feet short of the baseline but still won the point for Lopez.

Yep…back to the original focus of the thread.

Situational. That word has cropped up a number of times. It's applicable and relevant. I particularly like your example of Feliciano Lopez. It brings to mind the "greatest situational player of all time" in the words of one esteemed forum contributor…John McEnroe.

Feliciano is left handed of course so it makes everything he does situational compared to those net approach tactics of a right handed player. Everything that a left handed player throws at you when approaching and volleying creates this moment of indecision that is so important when attacking the net.

Even the fact that the ball was six feet short is another "situational" variable. When approaching the net some of your best approaches are going to result in a clean pass from your opponent. Some of your dullest efforts may be successful. The theory is that…if you effectively mix it up and keep your opponent off balance when approaching the odds are going to tip in your favor in the long run.

Study the tactics of John McEnroe versus Bjorn Borg. Speaking of approaching against the likes of a Rafael Nadal…one has to look no further than this example. At least to begin to grasp the fundamentals of what it would take to play Nadal in this manner. I would dearly love to hear McEnroe's view on how Roger Federer should play Nadal. That would sort of be looking in the "mirror" with regards to the McEnroe/Borg example.

[vrc10s]

Fed

Watching Fed play, he is down two sets to none and not playing well. He will need to play one of those long draining matches we were hoping he wouldn't need to play in the early rounds.
I hope he pulls it out.

[gzhpcu]

That makes two of us...

[gzhpcu]

Darn! Compliments to Seppi though. Did not lose his nerve. The match ball was incredible...

[bottle]

Appreciate the input on slap-shot since I seldom hear enough about this and often find myself talking about slap-shot element in my McEnrueful. I'm simply thinking of a very direct takeback up and to the right. Maybe that's all I should call it. (Boring?) In any case the upswing leads to a quick flattened out forehand once you set the handle opposite the belly button to crank the shoulders. But no mondo/flip please. The wrist is almost straight. Have hit this shot with at least three different grips and results which, though interestingly different, were not THAT far apart. Whatever the racket head pitch, it remains constant from belly button onward because of the solid connection-- then-- between shoulder and hand.