John's Analysis of Maria Scharapova's serve

[10splayer]

I feel like Pat thinks the chest tilt, or chest facing upward stretch, is a key serving ingredient that a lot of top women servers(Sharapova is a classic example) are missing. This chest tilt, after the deep knee bend action on the serve(that 10splayer talked about) is optimal but very difficult for a lot of folks to master(IMO). I feel Pat thinks this chest tilt is a must that may be most easily learned and incorporated with more of a preset chest tilt position prior to the leg thrust.

I know exactly what you're saying. As always, tennis is taught based on the case/player in front of you. There have been many times over the years, I've done isolation drills to get player's chests up. That needs to be done sometimes. In general, I think there is an overall misconception as to the way the body rotates on the serve. Least that's been my experience..

But yeah, as I mentioned, these are all valid points you and pat allude to.

[stroke]

More by Pat on chest tilt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukRMNLQPtTM

[stroke]

Yup, I'm always interested in what Pat has to say. And in fairness, I think the video was more in response to the women's serve. And I tend to agree with him, that many of the girls don't ever achieve enough lateral tilt to work the "left" ball toss/inside the hand contact for the spins..

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

I feel like Pat thinks the chest tilt, or chest facing upward stretch, is a key serving ingredient that a lot of top women servers(Sharapova is a classic example) are missing. This chest tilt, after the deep knee bend action on the serve(that 10splayer talked about) is optimal but very difficult for a lot of folks to master(IMO). I feel Pat thinks this chest tilt is a must that may be most easily learned and incorporated with more of a preset chest tilt position prior to the leg thrust.

[10splayer]

10splayer, thanks for your thoughts and insight or this chest tilt issue. I see what you are saying about men servers finding this chest tilt position nowadays after the leg thrust. I think some men players still kind of tend to sway toward the Hoad style kind of preset chest tilt position. These to me would be the guys of course without the deeper knee bend, like Wawrinka and Nadal.

Stroke,

That would make a lot of sense....

[stroke]

10splayer, thanks for your thoughts and insight or this chest tilt issue. I see what you are saying about men servers finding this chest tilt position nowadays after the leg thrust. I think some men players still kind of tend to sway toward the Hoad style kind of preset chest tilt position. These to me would be the guys of course without the deeper knee bend, like Wawrinka and Nadal.

[gzhpcu]

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

Don't forget that Lew Hoad ruined his back serving this way, and during the head-to-head tour with Gonzales had a back injury which effectively terminated his career.

[10splayer]

10s Player,

That is very well said. Pat is verbally felicitous. (And a good friend.) But not everything he says matches the video evidence...in my opinion.

Yup, I'm always interested in what Pat has to say. And in fairness, I think the video was more in response to the women's serve. And I tend to agree with him, that many of the girls don't ever achieve enough lateral tilt to work the "left" ball toss/inside the hand contact for the spins..

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

[johnyandell]

10s Player,

That is very well said. Pat is verbally felicitous. (And a good friend.) But not everything he says matches the video evidence...in my opinion.

[10splayer]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. . I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture

Sorry Stroke, i didn't see and address this question...Here's my 02 cents. There is an optimal level of lateral tilt (chest up). If you look at Gordon's masterpiece he actually displays optimal levels of tilt as they relate to the hitting arm structure. (for optimal internal shoulder rotation and forward angular momentum) Take home point....a little is good, but can be overdone....

Now, lets look at the old timers (before they could leave the ground) and current players. (leaving the ground) The most important thing to understand (IMO) is the difference in the ground reaction force created and the effect that has on the tilt. Chiefly, that the lateral tilt INCREASES as the legs push up, and the greater the force, the more that will be the case.

So when Hoad served, for instance, he would set the optimal chest angle, and because there wasn't a huge push up, that lateral tilt remained pretty constant...the ideal...

However, if you had a guy like Fed set the chest angle to that extreme, and then push, the spine and lateral tilt would become too extreme...Not optimal and risky from an injury point of view..

What i see on video, is the contrast between WHEN players (old vs new) arrive at the proper lateral tilt angle. Hoad and greats, achieve that position right off the bat, and the current players "progress" to that ideal position throughout the leg drive..Example: Look at Fed at the beginning of the "upward drive/ leg extension)..The chest is angle "slightly up" but increases as the legs extend..

I believe that the difference in the upward/ground reaction force is a real factor in these different style packages.

[10splayer]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture. I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

Stoke, I talked about Wawrinka's serve in his thread..Just a couple of thoughts.

[don_budge]

The Fundamentally Lacking Stanislas Wawrinka Service Motion...

This is a warm up serve, surely. He's just stroking the ball in...relatively. I tried to look in the archive for Stan but his clips aren't working.

I think that Stan Wawrinka's service motion is fundamentally lacking…it is obvious. Something doesn't look quite right to the eye.

This from the Interactive Forum for February 2014 Stan Wawrinka:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2566&highlight=stan+wawrinka+interactive+forum

Fantastic video clip, John. It ranks right up there with your last offering of the Tim Henman serve and volley. I really like it when the Interactive Forum is a sequence of shots...it gives us a glimpse into multiple aspects of a players total game as well as possibly being able to cypher something of their tactical play. Great job as usual...thank you very much.

A serve, a defensive forehand, a defensive backhand...and so on and so forth. Regards the camera angle and view...not bad. The only thing else that I would like to see is the rest of the court...the other side of the court. In order to fully comprehend the exchange between the two players. It’s a great clip...there is a lot going on and a lot to discuss. Much like the Tim Henman serve and volley clip. Here we have a Stanislas Wawrinka backcourt exchange clip. Excellent!


The Serve...of Stanislas Wawrinka

It’s an odd motion and it doesn’t make any sense to my eye. The back foot moving forwards when the weight should be shifting backwards totally screws up the timing when the whole package should be unwinding and the racquet head screaming towards the ball.

From the set up position he has set himself up to go in the wrong direction. Stan has the racquet set forwards but his weight is almost entirely on his back foot. His front foot is balanced fully on the heel. The hands go down together and up together with a real sense of synchronicity...but that is where the synergy ends. My God...it is a strange motion. Once his hands are risen to shoulder height, his front foot has now planted itself squarely on the ground which indicates that the weight transfer has gone forwards...also evidenced by the right heel up in the air. At this point deep into his backswing his weight should be following the head of the racquet and the weight should be squarely on the back foot. So what strange compensating move must he make to go forwards now?

Ok...the strange plot thickens. Now the back foot has made a rather unorthodox move into the pin-point stance and he is standing virtually straight up with absolutely zero rotation of his shoulders. Without any discernible further rotation of his shoulders from a position where he is perpendicular to the net he starts to rotate forwards as his racquet is dropping into position behind him. As a result of his unorthodox footwork he is in a position with his racquet dropped behind him and he is virtually in a full frontal position. I have always had the sensation that there was something disturbingly wrong with this service motion but without studying it frame by frame it was never clear as to what was actually wrong with it.

Here is just one more top elite tennis player in the modern game of tennis with some rather glaring deficiencies in the service motion. You know what a big part of the problem is...of course you do. Service motions nowadays are not designed or engineered to be followed to the net. As a result there is a lot of room for liberal interpretation as to what constitutes an effective motion.

The fix for Stanislas is to change to a platform stance. In this manner he will shift his weight back to the back foot as the racquet backswings into position at the top. By assuming a platform stance he won’t have the ass-backwards concept of weight transfer going on so he can more effectively rotate his body backwards...as a result of a more effective rotation backwards he will have stored up enough potential energy to go forwards that will entirely change his way of thinking how he delivers the racquet head to the ball. He will get his legs under him. Once he is there...he will have more effective capability to spin the ball in various ways which will open up his book of service tactics. Interesting that there is so much potential to be realized in one of the world’s most elite players.

When working on my students service motions I have come to the conclusion that it is very important that they are designed as if the player will be following the serve to the net...even though in most cases they will not be. So I have them train in serve and volley mode as a drill to get the proper rotation and feeling that they are rotating into the ball properly. It certainly is ironic that I believe that the champion of this years 2014 Australian Open could benefit from a thirty dollar tennis lesson from a displaced American who is coaching at a small little club in the middle of nowhere of Sweden. Am I hallucinating again?

By the way...yesterday it was the comely Estonian that I trained with the Pancho Segura forehand and backhand who was serving and volleying. The service motion is abbreviated at this point...as you can imagine the lack of natural feeling for the service motion. So both hands raise together from the starting position and we try for a rotation of the shoulders and get the racquet into some semblance of a drop position. From here it is rotate back to the ball with the back foot swinging into the court followed by two quick steps and a shortstop position stop split step (I don’t care for the term split step for some reason)...and then I feed volleys to simulate the volley and close on the net aspect of the serve and volley tactic. It worked out really well. I explain that this is an advanced tactic and technique that may be eventually a part of doubles play. She looks at me with those big blue eyes and nods her head slowly in silence...not a word. The word compliant comes to mind.

You know...if Stanislas had followed this particular serve into the net he would have been making an aggressive volley instead of backing up and playing a defensive forehand.

Next...the rest of the video clip analysis.

At least that is how I would skin this particular cat.

[stotty]

Yes, Stan doesn't jump much either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmJO_ZUtWU

This is a warm up serve, surely. He's just stroking the ball in...relatively. I tried to look in the archive for Stan but his clips aren't working.

[gzhpcu]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture. I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

Yes, Stan doesn't jump much either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmJO_ZUtWU

[don_budge]

All but one of them is probably wrong...

There is more than one way to skin a cat...

Perhaps there are an infinite ways of skinning a cat and all but one of them is wrong. Or at least Fundamentally Incorrect (FI).

Serving is not "skinning a cat" and one must adhere to some very fundamental concepts if you want a "perfect motion". One that is engineered without any friction in the system. Friction retards.

[gzhpcu]

There is more than one way to skin a cat...