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Interactive Forum May 2015: Barry Buss Forehand

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  • Interactive Forum May 2015: Barry Buss Forehand

    Barry Buss Forehand

    Where does the ATP style backswing identified by Brian Gordon come from? How about the players themselves?

    My friend and Tennisplayer contributor Barry Buss is embarking on a quest to win a gold ball in the men's 50s. If you have read his amazing article series you know that Barry was an elite junior and college player who had a unique story to tell about his youth. (Click Here.)

    Now at age 50ish he wants return to competition on his own terms for his own reasons.

    I get to be part of the team. So when we started working on his strokes what did I see? Right, a compact outside backswing leading into a powerful flip. Keep in mind Barry NEVER had a lesson.

    Anyone have thoughts?

    Last edited by johnyandell; 07-01-2016, 10:49 AM.

  • #2
    Quicktime version

    Barry Buss Forehand

    Last edited by johnyandell; 07-01-2016, 10:49 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      A Jimmy Connors or Angela Kerber immediate separation of the hands. An out to his right lift like Andre Agassi.

      If I were in a shop, as I have been for most of my tennis life, and I was determined to settle on one main forehand, this might be the model.

      One can certainly see how backswing wide to the player's right short-circuits (eliminates) Roger's difficult adjustment to a similar place just before his dogpat.

      A tall willowy player such as myself however might want the longer tract that comes with loose and tension-free preparation flowing close past his head similar to Roger's so long as he had another economical but bent-arm stroke with entirely different backswing as alternative. Through self-feed, I have concluded that Roger's adjustment, which would waste time for any player other than him, is unnecessary for somebody who really wants to stay far away from the ball for maximum straight-arm radius out from body core (a big sweep!).

      The image of two coins, one on edge, the other on its side, works just fine at least for now.

      You are entitled to laugh, reader, if this design fails to work when I transition from knee replacement induced self-feed to full competition next month.
      Last edited by bottle; 05-04-2015, 03:43 PM. Reason: I didn't want to use the concept of "separation" or "separate" in three different ways in one post.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bottle View Post
        A Jimmy Connors or Angela Kerber immediate separation of the hands...

        or Tomas Berdych

        I like Barry's forehand, but based on comments I received from my own forehand I shared with the forum, I'm willing to bet many people will say his racquet head does not drop far enough below the ball.

        I love the full shoulder turn, left arm extended parallel with the baseline but most of all, I like his focus. When he hits the ball it just looks like he has a goal in mind. Good luck on getting that gold ball Barry. I'll be rooting for you.

        As for my forehand...stay tuned

        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
        Boca Raton
        Last edited by klacr; 05-04-2015, 08:51 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Powerful athlete. Powerful stroke. High level obviously.

          However, on first impression it feels cramped. I looked at it many times and compared it to Sampras who I think is an excellent comparison for Bobby.

          http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...nterFront1.mov

          Watch the difference in the left arm between the two players. Bobby begins bending in his left arm at approximately 45% while Sampras allows the left arm to go to 90% before bending in.

          I'm not sure how much mobility Bobby's hips have at present but I think he gets less hip rotation before contact than Pete and thus has to begin his shoulder rotation earlier than Pete. Pete can save his shoulder rotation longer, and then can continue to rotate beautifully through and after contact giving his strokes the long beautiful flowing quality.

          It would be interesting if you measured Bobby's hip flexibility and see what kind of rotation he can get.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gsheiner View Post
            Powerful athlete. Powerful stroke. High level obviously.

            However, on first impression it feels cramped. I looked at it many times and compared it to Sampras who I think is an excellent comparison for Bobby.

            http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...nterFront1.mov

            Watch the difference in the left arm between the two players. Bobby begins bending in his left arm at approximately 45% while Sampras allows the left arm to go to 90% before bending in.

            I'm not sure how much mobility Bobby's hips have at present but I think he gets less hip rotation before contact than Pete and thus has to begin his shoulder rotation earlier than Pete. Pete can save his shoulder rotation longer, and then can continue to rotate beautifully through and after contact giving his strokes the long beautiful flowing quality.

            It would be interesting if you measured Bobby's hip flexibility and see what kind of rotation he can get.
            Not sure about the Sampras model for Barry as the swing path is somewhat different. Plus, last time I looked Sampras doesn't flip much, if at all. I'll pop in the archive just to check that but I don't think he's much of a flipper.

            I like bottle's likening of Barry to Connors the way the hands separate...like Connors but with a flip.

            Yes it is a little cramped, but still bloody good if you are 50-ish. Tennis gets tough in your 50s...I should know.

            I am not sure about the catching the racket on the follow through business. Looks a little staged and not like real life (Barry if you're looking in, do you do that in real life?). I like the rest of it though...definitely better than mine.

            And, Barry did you remodel your forehand or was it like that when you were a junior?
            Last edited by stotty; 05-05-2015, 05:16 AM.
            Stotty

            Comment


            • #7
              Very provocative this idea of gsheiner's of maximum hips rotation and THEN maximum shoulders rotation. But I realize there's always going to be some kind of an overlap.
              Last edited by bottle; 05-04-2015, 04:16 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's Barry. His name is Barry


                Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                Boca Raton

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by klacr View Post
                  It's Barry. His name is Barry


                  Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                  Boca Raton
                  Amended...it's my age you know.
                  Stotty

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Darwinian Tennis

                    Morning everybody,

                    Thanks for the interest in the fearhand wing..lol..Actually, I used to fear them coming at my forehand side hard, for my lack of whip and spin on that wing made defending that corner challenging.

                    Brief background...Connors was my hero. I grew up on screaming fast indoor courts with a heavy wood racket..so if you think this stroke is stiff, you should have seen it some years ago.

                    When younger I could get away with the closed stance flat stuff because my feet and legs were real good...Thirty years (and pounds) later, and we have had to learn to adapt, mutate if you will, to my body's changes as well as to the game and the equipment..I just can't get to the ball or get down for the ball like I used to, Hence, the Darwinian aspect of it all.

                    I am completely self taught, I can count on one hand how many lessons I had growing up. Better yet, I never once hit a fed ball until I got to UCLA. And I mean that. There was no baskets of balls or perfect feeds. It was crack a couple cans and get at it.

                    As a learning tool, maybe not the best for technique, but great for toughness. There were consequences for making errors right from the start so I learned how to run everything done and not make mistakes.

                    So much of the game is athletic intuition in my opinion. Allow the larger muscle groups to create the structure of the stroke, much easier to repeat the larger slower muscle movements. Then allow for the quicker twitch muscles to create the action on the ball.

                    A lot of the issues on my forehand are predicated off of the unorthodoxy of my backhand, which will hopefully be a part of a future series here. My backhand is/was a little funky, a two handed no backswing slapping thing... The two wings are highly assymetric...My preparation and recovery between the two sides was always a challenge for I could take the backhand super early and on the rise all day, and use that as my weapon..Yet I struggled to be as quick and explosive on the forehand side...I just couldn't get the whole swing off quick enough if attacked..

                    But I'm working on it. The project is coming along pretty good. I played super well yesterday, a lot of positive things are finally coming back.

                    Thanks again John for all the help. More coming soon..
                    Last edited by johnyandell; 06-02-2015, 05:55 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think it's very difficult to make corrections for the forehand without seeing a full picture of the your game. Yes, dropping the racket head more below the ball would make it a "better" forehand but only if it fits with your game. For the more aggressive minded players I work with the emphasis is creating technique that enables a player to strike the ball in a way that matches what they are trying to do. I would imagine with that stroke that you are trying to be more aggressive and control the center or even attack the net. Without seeing the rest of your game the best advice I feel I could contribute would be focus on efficiency. Creating a little more space between yourself and the ball will allow your elbow to extend more (not fully) to contact rather than bending to contact. It also looks like your shoulder comes up and in a little before internally rotating. The internal rotation can be a great source for power and spin and a loose shoulder will maximize that. I would love to see some clips of the rest of your strokes and maybe a few points to get a better picture of what is going on.
                      Last edited by ghl312; 05-05-2015, 09:48 AM. Reason: mis read something earlier in thread

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by barrybuss View Post
                        Morning everybody,

                        Thanks for the interest in the fearhand wing..lol..Actually, I used to fear them coming at my forehand side hard, for my lack of whip and spin on that wing made defending that corner challenging.

                        Brief background...Connors was my hero. I grew up on screaming fast indoor courts with a heavy wood racket..so if you think this stroke is stiff, you should have seen it some years ago.

                        When younger I could get away with the closed stance flat stuff because my feet and legs were real good...Thirty years (and pounds) later, and we have had to learn to adapt, mutate if you will, to my body's changes as well as to the game and the equipment..I just can't get to the ball or get down for the ball like I used to, Hence, the Darwinian aspect of it all.

                        I am completely self taught, I can count on one hand how many lessons I had growing up. Better yet, I never once hit a fed ball until I got to UCLA. And I mean that. There was no baskets of balls or perfect feeds. It was crack a couple cans and get at it.

                        As a learning tool, maybe not the best for technique, but great for toughness. There were consequences for making errors right from the start so I learned how to run everything done and not make mistakes.

                        So much of the game is athletic intuition in my opinion. Allow the larger muscle groups to create the structure of the stroke, much easier to repeat the larger slower muscle movements. Then allow for the quicker twitch muscles to create the action on the ball.

                        A lot of the issues on my forehand are predicated off of the unorthodoxy of my backhand, which will hopefully be a part of a future series here. My backhand is/was a little funky, a two handed no backswing slapping thing... The two wings are highly assymetric...My preparation and recovery between the two sides was always a challenge for I could take the backhand super early and on the rise all day, and use that as my weapon..Yet I struggled to be as quick and explosive on the forehand side...I just couldn't get the whole swing off quick enough if attacked..

                        But I'm working on it. The project is coming along pretty good. I played super well yesterday, a lot of positive things are finally coming back.

                        Thanks again John for all the help. More coming soon..
                        Fascinating, instructive and wise.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Dilemmas of the Ageing Warrior...

                          Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                          Barry Buss Forehand

                          Anyone have thoughts?

                          It is a fundamentally sound forehand. Good use of the legs and lower body. Barry has his legs under him as he starts his swing and this serves as a solid foundation from which to swing.

                          Excellent use of the torso as well. Keeping his "chest on the ball" up until impact. The shorter and compact swing enable him to move forwards and to get set before he swings.

                          The key to beating Barry will be the ability to move him and not allow him to get set. The extra pounds in a match of longer duration may work against him…although it might take a number of tough matches to bring such a strong willed competitor down.

                          Further loading of the wrist is going to be difficult with his background of heavy racquets and fast courts. But this is sort of unnecessary as all of his competition faces the same dilemma. The key to your success is your ability to get in position to make a balanced swing. Some of these older guys are surprisingly nimble and light on their feet. Much of the deciding factor will come down to the service game. I suspect we are going to catch a load of your service motion.

                          If I was your "coach" I would encourage you to diet and drop ten or twenty pounds or so. This will lighten your load and enhance your capabilities. With your physique and will power this shouldn't be so hard to do.
                          Last edited by don_budge; 05-19-2015, 09:10 PM. Reason: for clarity's sake...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Buddy's forehand

                            Hi Buddy, looks pretty good. I have one suggestion for you. Instead of keeping a basically straight arm, and having a take back, try to copy the atp forehand technique of starting with a bent arm next to your head on the unit turn, then let your arm relax into the pat the dog on the head position, and then when you take your step to hit the ball your backswing will come on it's own by the racquet flip that happens when you turn your shoulders. Look at Rick Macci's explanation for more detail. I think that will give you more effortless power. You seem to be muscling it a bit. I'm working on the same thing myself. Hope that helps, Tim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tim: Possessive its never splits. And do you understand that your post seems condescending? What makes you think that Barry Buss doesn't already know just as much about this subject as you and maybe more? Did he invite your suggestion? Is he unhappy with his present forehand, which is shorter than what you describe here? He has a good enough forehand that he needn't ever change it, seems to me, unless he wants to of course.

                              As for me, I'm a guy who does very much as you say, but I have an alternate forehand available as well. It is shorter even than Barry's.

                              One thing you need to address in your own incipient forehand as described here (and I hope this doesn't sound condescending) is whether to start toward the ball from out in the slot like Barry or more like Roger in this video coming from inner edge of the slot with elbow pulling slightly away to close the racket and make room for sufficient circular tract to the ball (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20500fps.mp4).
                              Last edited by bottle; 05-20-2015, 11:48 AM.

                              Comment

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