Inside out Pattern

[CraigC]

When playing the inside out pattern, the threatening shot from your opponent is the backhand down the line. Sampras used an Eastern grip to deal with a player who slices the backhand down the line, allowing him to get underneath it with ease and rip his running forehand.

My question is this:
Graf used to hit a great short slice down the line that killed gophers at Wimbledon. With today's grips, how would a player starting in the inside out position, deal with this ball. And then, what shot would they hit, if they could get under it.

ANYONE????

[John Yandell]

You know I saw a couple of those gophers in the members lounge at Wimbledon--or thought I did after a Pimms Cup or two the year I spoke there... They told me everyone in the family was glad Steffi retired...

Great question...as usual. I hit that shot all the time and my high school girls' team is helpless. Wonder about the mechanics of doing it and really getting thru it not floating it when starting with a 90mph ball coming at you with 3000rpm of searing, high bouncing spin.....

[vmiller]

Considering your momentum would be taking you forward (short ball) and off the court at the same time, wouldn't this be a good time to hit a percentage approach shot down the line?

Personally, I'd try and punch a forehand slice deep down the line. Even if I was able to get under it, I probably wouldn't be able to do much with it, but maybe a pro could? Maybe a forehand like Federer's would be able to hit a short topspin angle cross court. Sounds like it'd be a tough ball to change direction on though.

Or how about a drop shot? Probably low percentage in this situation, but maybe the next best alternative.

[CraigC]

That's the problem VIN

Federer would deal well with it as he has the right grip to hit the crosscourt angle hard. I would agree that the slice up the line approach play is a good response, but the problem is that you are attacking from so far to the side of the court, that you leave a crosscourt passing shot wide open. Tough way to win. A drop might work, but that is risky. So, it's quite obvious this is a difficult shot to deal with. My question, as John has instinctively anticipated, is why do more players not use the shot against the inside out pattern? Is it, as John says, too much spin on the heavy inside out forehand, to control the slice? Is it that players don't hit the slice well enough today? Is it that most players today are hitting a more European Slice which sticks and sits up, rather than an American slice which stays low and penetrates the court?
I wonder....
I still would like to hear more answers as to how a player in the inside out position using a semi- or western grip, would deal with a short slice down the line against his forehand.
There aren't many compromising situations one can present on a tennis court,but I feel this one deserves attention as it is quite plausible to hit this shot with consistency and accuracy.

[John Yandell]

In all seriousness, this could be an evolutionary shot. Not only in the pro game but in junior tennis. It ought to work regularly for some players against some opponents on some balls--at the very least.

To me it would be pyschologically powerful to take somebody's big inside out drive and leave them sprinting, reaching and scraping--and then having to watch the opponent hit back into the open court or come in and pick off the floater. But it's crafty rather than macho and I think that's a problem for some players--due to their own lack of imagination but also insecurity... (I have to win by hitting hard or I'm not good...)

[vmiller]

To me it would be pyschologically powerful to take somebody's big inside out drive and leave them sprinting, reaching and scraping--and then having to watch the opponent hit back into the open court or come in and pick off the floater.

Add to that the fact that your opponent is thinking they just succeeded in hitting a ball that you couldn't run around to hit another inside out forehand.

I've never heard of this pattern before, which probably gives away my skill level, but I like the idea and will give it a try.

Another consideration is this shot requiring a change in direction which is going to be harder on a fast ball, even more so if it has a lot of spin. Wouldn't it make more sense to try this shot on an easier ball and just stick with higher percentage cross court shots on the 'searing 3000 rpm' ball?

[davehagler]

slice is nice

I've seen Taylor Dent hit this shot - and it was pretty effective. I hit this shot against my juniors and they don't like it too much. The key to all of this is that the ball either has to stay low, or be short enough that the opponent has to come forward a lot or both. A full or strong semi western player will invariably try to roll the ball cross court because there is no way they can hit a low forehand down the line while running forward or forward and laterally. You can anticipate this and then hit down the line to a wide open court.

In terms of the inside out pattern an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Many (certainly not all) players (assuming right handed) are much stronger in the add diagonal than the deuce diagonal. Best shots are inside out forehands and cross court backhands. If you think back to Jim Courier people started beating him as soon as they figured out that you could push him wide to his forehand and attack his backhand. Why this took over a year I do not know.

[CraigC]

Okay So....

So far we all agree that the short down the line slice is a great shot to beat the inside out position, but no one has come up with an answer to deal with it effectively yet.
Are there others out there?
I would say that Federer has used the defensive slice , hit short crosscourt to set up another indefensible position. He brings his opponent into the court where the player cannot get back behind the baseline. He forces the player to attack a ball from below the net. He often forces the player beyond the singles sideline before the player can get to the ball. He dares one to come in against his running forehand, leaving Federer a wide open crosscourt pass. And he challenges the player to come in crosscourt against his backhand from way off the court. So, how do we as coaches teach players to deal with this shot from Federer, or has he found another shot that is too difficult to deal with? And are there more....?? Hmmmm!!

[CraigC]

Blown Away!

I am blown away that this thread is not exploding. Must be my own ignorance but I truly thought that if we could discover the shots that can't be defended in tennis, we might educate each other about WINNING. Alas, I guess it's true...It's how you look (technique) rather than how you play (strategy) that gets the interest.

[John Yandell]

So lead the explosion...although I will have to agree that the prevailing wisdom that if you look good you will win is not exactly the way it really happens. But if it wasn't the prevailing view then the winners wouldn't be the exceptions...now if you can look good and play good too...then you might be a champion.

[shootermcmarc0]

Graf used to hit a great short slice down the line that killed gophers at Wimbledon. With today's grips, how would a player starting in the inside out position, deal with this ball. And then, what shot would they hit, if they could get under it.

ANYONE????

a whole lot of running if I had a better slice I could probably employ this strategy against a friend of mine who relies on his forehand more than any other stroke.

[crosscourt]

I come up against this situation quite often. Where I play we have hardcourts that are moderately quick and which promote the use of semi-western forehands and reasonable amounts of topspin in rally shots. But we all play single handed backhands, so attacking and defending slice is part of the game.

Overall, I think that there are too many variables in this for my brain to work through a pattern, but my feeling is that from the point of view of the person who hits the inside out forehand, you defend this play at least in part by the depth and angle of your inside out shot. Henman is good at this. He varies the speed, trajectory, depth and angle of the inside out forehand pretty well. Part of the choice of how to hit the forehand is where your opponent recovers to, and whether he is likely to come in. That in turn depends on how scared he is that I can straighten the ball and put it down the line from inside out position. Overall I think that the more angle I put on the inside out ball, the less worried I am about the height/depth of my opponent's return, because of the angle that he has to (1) play the slice on (2) approach the net on.

Have I missed the point completely?

[Kaptain Karl]

Craig - I'm sorry you are not getting lots of responses. Part of the problem may be with your wording of your OP.

I can read the following either of two ways, and my problem is I cannot tell which way you mean....

When playingagainst the inside out pattern, the threatening shot from your opponent is the backhand down the line.

This one "sort of" makes sense....

When I am playing the inside out pattern, the threatening shot from your opponent is the backhand down the line.

But so does this one....

By combining "inside out" with "down the line" ... I'm sorry, but you lost me.

(Maybe I'm just hypo-glycemic. Time for lunch....)

- KK

[FiveO]

So far we all agree that the short down the line slice is a great shot to beat the inside out position, but no one has come up with an answer to deal with it effectively yet.
Are there others out there?
I would say that Federer has used the defensive slice , hit short crosscourt to set up another indefensible position. He brings his opponent into the court where the player cannot get back behind the baseline. He forces the player to attack a ball from below the net. He often forces the player beyond the singles sideline before the player can get to the ball. He dares one to come in against his running forehand, leaving Federer a wide open crosscourt pass. And he challenges the player to come in crosscourt against his backhand from way off the court. So, how do we as coaches teach players to deal with this shot from Federer, or has he found another shot that is too difficult to deal with? And are there more....?? Hmmmm!!

I wrote an analysis of Fed's short x-court bh slice very much like this in TW's forum. As "nothing" as it may appear I don't believe it is defensive at all. It is a "dare" and in Fed's game extremely offensive.

The answers I see are either concede and play a defensive long x-court affording Fed's opponent time to recover the court, stay at least nuetral in the point and work for an opportunity to go offensive. Either that or possess a bh a la Safin who can take that ball dtl offensively enough to nuetralize Fed's killer fh. Safin's ability to hit that single shot better than anyone else on tour presents major problems for Fed. It's an element which makes a "right" Safin the biggest threat to Fed in the current crop of contenders, on anything but clay or grass. It also appears to be the reason why Fed appears to have to work harder against better left-handers.