Old vs New slice

[10splayer]

There has been much talk about how equipment has ruined the game, and, or, eliminated the front court style.

Here are two of the greatest hitting a shot, that in the current game, seems to be a bit obsolete. What are the differences? Is it technology?

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours....

https://youtu.be/Rws3xyYbthI

https://youtu.be/eLxeztHvWXA

[stotty]

There has been much talk about how equipment has ruined the game, and, or, eliminated the front court style.

Here are two of the greatest hitting a shot, that in the current game, seems to be a bit obsolete. What are the differences? Is it technology?

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours....

https://youtu.be/Rws3xyYbthI

https://youtu.be/eLxeztHvWXA

I think Federer carves down the back of the ball more than Rosewall, but then when I witnessed Rosewall hitting on an outside court at Wimbledon some twenty odd years ago, he was hitting relatively flat. He wasn't hitting with much slice...a modicum actually.

I am not sure technology has much to do with the differences between the two players....more changes in the game. Maybe the larger rackets allow for a steeper downward swing to create more slice, but I am not sure.

[klacr]

the spin, speed and height that the incoming ball has an effect. Federer dealing with a heavier ball so downward angle a bit more extreme.
Rosewall slice is so beautiful though.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

the spin, speed and height that the incoming ball has an effect. Federer dealing with a heavier ball so downward angle a bit more extreme.
Rosewall slice is so beautiful though.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Agree. Federer has to deal with high bouncing topspin most of the time and he takes it on the rise. Rosewall didn't.

[lobndropshot]

Rosewall's backhand is the missing link. Not fully a land animal not fully a sea creature, but, something in between. It is a shot hit with little slice and the technical elements of the topspin backhand. I can't wait to go out to the court and experiment with this missing link.

[johnyandell]

Rosewall is a much better model for players below elite levels:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_2/

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_3/

Also here is Trey Waltke's great article on hitting the Rosewall style bh:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/classiclessons/trey_waltke/the_slice_backhand/the_slice_backhand.html

There is a Rosewall photo sequence that Trey actually used to model the stroke.

[10splayer]

I think Federer carves down the back of the ball more than Rosewall, but then when I witnessed Rosewall hitting on an outside court at Wimbledon some twenty odd years ago, he was hitting relatively flat. He wasn't hitting with much slice...a modicum actually.

I am not sure technology has much to do with the differences between the two players....more changes in the game. Maybe the larger rackets allow for a steeper downward swing to create more slice, but I am not sure.

It's interesting, because I see a very different mechanical model one from the other.....

At least in general terms, the players of old, pronate in the backswing. Current players TEND not to, and ramifications in the forward swing are pronounced. (in my opinion.)

If one looks at Rosewall (and most old timers), at the beginning of the forward swing, the face is wide open as a result of pronating throughout the backswing. (turning the thumb down, counterclockwise). From this position the arm will supinate in the forward swing, and the resultant face angle will work from "open" back towards "square". This rotation (backswing), counter rotation is a "driving" type of action, at least in my experience...

If you look at Fed, at the beginning of the forward swing the racquet face is much more "square". As a result, there is going to be very little, if any, supinating, or forearm rotation in the forward swing. In fact, if anything, it looks like he's pronating in the forward swing, which, give it that "chopping" type of look".

Next time you work with someone with a bad slice, have them try the open towards closed, (rosewall) action, and tell me what you think.

With club players, I've found it to be an immediate success.

[stotty]

It's interesting, because I see a very different mechanical model one from the other.....

At least in general terms, the players of old, pronate in the backswing. Current players TEND not to, and ramifications in the forward swing are pronounced. (in my opinion.)

If one looks at Rosewall (and most old timers), at the beginning of the forward swing, the face is wide open as a result of pronating throughout the backswing. (turning the thumb down, counterclockwise). From this position the arm will supinate in the forward swing, and the resultant face angle will work from "open" back towards "square". This rotation (backswing), counter rotation is a "driving" type of action, at least in my experience...

If you look at Fed, at the beginning of the forward swing the racquet face is much more "square". As a result, there is going to be very little, if any, supinating, or forearm rotation in the forward swing. In fact, if anything, it looks like he's pronating in the forward swing, which, give it that "chopping" type of look".

Next time you work with someone with a bad slice, have them try the open towards closed, (rosewall) action, and tell me what you think.

With club players, I've found it to be an immediate success.

I can see the differences in the mechanics but just came to the conclusion, and did so some years ago, the old timers hit the ball with much less slice, and the shot is more of a drive. Rosewall was in his fifties when I saw him hitting backhands (so knocking on a bit) but he really wasn't hitting with all that much slice. I also felt the technique adapted itself well to backhand volleys (Rosewall's backhand volley being every bit as good as Edberg's in my view).

I always thought Rosewall was unique the way he sat the racket face wide open like that, but I popped into the archive and found Gonzales doing similar. So, yes, it's generational thing it seems.

[stroke]

John wrote a great article on this in his Advanced Tennis section called "The Pro Slice and Your Slice". I think 10splayer is right on it with his observation about the set up position(pronated) on the pro slice. I love how Fed is able to lay his wrist back(pretty much full wrist flexion) position on his slice with his full strong continental grip. To me, this is the strongest hand position the slice. This is in contrast to Novak, who has a weaker continental grip on his slice(more toward the forehand grip) which I think puts his wrist in a more neutral position at contact(to me this is a weaker hand postiion).

[bottle]

It's an interesting, even classical discussion, but if I can learn both ways of hitting slice, then anybody can.

Specialism is what I don't understand, why anyone must or should hit tabletop or chop but not both.

While learning both, go ahead and learn sidespin, drop-shots and slice lobs, too, is my personal advice TIOLI.

But 10splayer makes a good point about pronation or "double roll." I'll try some chops without double roll but know for a fact that they do work with a double roll.

[johnyandell]

Lokk at this guys. I think you do see a similar arm rotation:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/RF_BH_Slice&stroke=RF%20BHSlice%20Center%20Side1%20250fps.mp4

[don_budge]

Any way you Slice it…it's a slice. The Federfore Featherer…Exhibit C.

There has been much talk about how equipment has ruined the game, and, or, eliminated the front court style.

Here are two of the greatest hitting a shot, that in the current game, seems to be a bit obsolete. What are the differences? Is it technology?

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours....

https://youtu.be/Rws3xyYbthI

https://youtu.be/eLxeztHvWXA

It's a great idea for a thread 10splayer. Let's open up the discussion a bit. I like your thoughts…by the way.

For openers I would like to contribute Exhibit C. The highlight video of the 2009 Roland Garros Final between Roger Federer (your exhibit B) and Robin Söderling:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16hpqm_2009-roland-garros-final-federer-vs-soderling-highlights-hd_sport

Slice is underspin. Look how Roger is using underspin to get the big lug off balance, take his legs out from under him and essentially dissecting his opponent surgically…tactically speaking.

The underspin that is mostly exhibited in this highlight video is of the forehand variety…which is another missing aspect of the modern game…but what is curiously missing from the highlight video is what I remember to be one of the main tactical plays of Federer on Söderling which was for Roger to play his slice backhand crosscourt in a number of ways to neutralize Söderling on that side and patiently waiting for the ball that Federer could really be aggressive with. He would play the slice backhand effectively so that Söderling would be forced to slice back and since the Federer slice is better than the Söderling slice eight days a week…he had him and successfully neutered him. Tactically speaking.

It seems to me that Federer used to use this tactic rather frequently against the two handed players but has gotten away from it in recent years. Even in this Wimbledon final against his arch nemesis Novak Djokovic he played the ball short with slice and to my recollection Djokovic was never able to take much of advantage over Federer in this tactical exchange.

It's an interesting discussion when you factor in the equipment and analyze the difference in the technique of Kenny Rosewall and Roger Federer. What also is interesting is the technique of the "Federfore Featherer"…underspin off of the other wing.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2005&highlight=Federer+feathery

Let's talk underspin…slice. Any way you slice it…and you can slice it a million different ways…it's still a slice.

[don_budge]

Richard Gonzalez…the Slice Backhand

There has been much talk about how equipment has ruined the game, and, or, eliminated the front court style.

Here are two of the greatest hitting a shot, that in the current game, seems to be a bit obsolete. What are the differences? Is it technology?

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours....

https://youtu.be/Rws3xyYbthI

https://youtu.be/eLxeztHvWXA

The slice of Richard Gonzalez almost looks like a cross between Kenny Rosewall and Roger Federer. The slice of the past seems to be a bit more situational…whereas the slice of today seems to be more one dimensional. Again…maybe due to less sophisticated tactics.

Gonzalez is my model for my teaching paradigm…you know the one. Everything you could ask for in a tennis player…perhaps a stronger driving backhand. It was his one perceived weakness.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGBHSliceFront1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGBHSliceFront2.mov

The Classic Approach…with crossover "Tango" step

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGBHSliceFront2.mov

Very interesting rear side view…

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGBHSliceCourtLevelSide.mov

[GeoffWilliams]

Three of the worst people ever to walk a court: Mac/Gonzales/Tilden. Angry/moody/etc. Why do these personalities get away with it? Strange. How we forgive anything as long as the athlete is talented. Sad commentary on people in general.