The Myth of the Archer's Bow

[jdcremin]

Well you will certainly get a lot support on the forum with the theory that finessing the serve works better than muscling the serve. I think one of Cilic's great improvements is his greater use of spin and slice on his serve. I watched the first two sets against Tsonga last night and his serve was more effective than Tsonga's, whose serve tends to move in a straight lines.

I am less convinced than you that the service motion is easy....maybe for some players. But there is too much evidence out there to suggest it's tricky for a good proportion of players. A good toss helps but it won't resolve other fundamental defects.

I am, however, persuaded by your argument that teaching a good ball toss is paramount, and that the main focus should be to get the ball in and with spin. For the vast majority of players this would be excellent advice.

But what about rhythm....the mainstay of a good serve?

I put rhytm and ball toss all in the same basket - the ball toss alone isn't that hard and the serve motion isn't that hard but combining the two is. Which is maybe where control does come into play - so let me correct myself.

One thing about the motion - I tend to oversimplify things so I'll add something. The general motion of the serve is a throw but its a throw that must be done in the same way each time. So I'm going to backtrack a bit on the control part (I said you don't want control). To make the throw the same each time I would do this if I were a coach: after a player gets the throwing motion, toss, rhythm figured out then they need to take out unnecessary motions so that the ball does the same thing each time. One thing I've found that keeps you in the proper serve motion so that you don't get wild (thus changing the timing) is keeping the backwards/sideways tilt throughout the whole motion. Your rotation should be around a certain axis of the spine (acheived at trophy position) which is not vertical. If looking from behind the server, the spine is tilted to the left and back about 10 degrees each direction at trophy position, this sideways axis is maintained through contact - there is rotation and forward tilt of this axis but the side tilt is always kept. The axis is not brought up to vertical.

In my mind, I'm rotating from a fixed axis that is tilted to the side. Quite hard to explain with words actually but once I started using this trick, I gained a lot of consistency. The final result visually is an arm that is not close to the ear but away from the ear - at contact.

[stotty]

I would say that it's a fact that if the ball is hit at a specific height and distance (in relation to the players body - forwards and backwards , up and down, of the body) - the ball will do about the same thing each time. So I would say - if you're having trouble getting your flat serve in, look at your contact point and your toss.

Perhaps if you're already hitting 120s mph, and getting it in, then trying to get a little more power by doing this kind of kinetic analysis, it makes sense. And yes, baseball players do analyze their throwing motions. For me, the speed I can get on the ball has never been an issue - it's always whether it goes in or not. Trying to get more power on my serve would be addressing the wrong issue - I think most people are the same - are there really guys who can't hit it hard? I doubt it but if so, go throw some racquets. The other issue is that if your thinking about the contact point is incorrect (maybe you think the serve is hit "out in front" instead of directly above your head - assuming you're not 6'8") then you'll never get any power regardless of your form. I see so many guys adjusting their form to their toss. The serve motion is easy - it's incorporating it with the toss that's hard.

Well you will certainly get a lot support on the forum with the theory that finessing the serve works better than muscling the serve. I think one of Cilic's great improvements is his greater use of spin and slice on his serve. I watched the first two sets against Tsonga last night and his serve was more effective than Tsonga's, whose serve tends to move in a straight lines.

I am less convinced than you that the service motion is easy....maybe for some players. But there is too much evidence out there to suggest it's tricky for a good proportion of players. A good toss helps but it won't resolve other fundamental defects.

I am, however, persuaded by your argument that teaching a good ball toss is paramount, and that the main focus should be to get the ball in and with spin. For the vast majority of players this would be excellent advice.

But what about rhythm....the mainstay of a good serve?

[jdcremin]

I feel in many cases you might be right. Players who can throw a tennis ball (or racket) a long way are half way there to start with. Nevertheless things can still go wrong, or be less than ideal, because an element is imperfect or missing. Andy Murray would seem to be an example of a top player with an element of his serve that is less than ideal.

I know nothing about baseball but I assume there are pitches and then there are pitches who pitch that bit better?

I think the best thing about Tennisplayer is it breaks down strokes so we can all fully understand and know what to look for. Players can become incrementally better by fixings small things.

I would say that it's a fact that if the ball is hit at a specific height and distance (in relation to the players body - forwards and backwards , up and down, of the body) - the ball will do about the same thing each time. So I would say - if you're having trouble getting your flat serve in, look at your contact point and your toss.

Perhaps if you're already hitting 120s mph, and getting it in, then trying to get a little more power by doing this kind of kinetic analysis, it makes sense. And yes, baseball players do analyze their throwing motions. For me, the speed I can get on the ball has never been an issue - it's always whether it goes in or not. Trying to get more power on my serve would be addressing the wrong issue - I think most people are the same - are there really guys who can't hit it hard? I doubt it but if so, go throw some racquets. The other issue is that if your thinking about the contact point is incorrect (maybe you think the serve is hit "out in front" instead of directly above your head - assuming you're not 6'8") then you'll never get any power regardless of your form. I see so many guys adjusting their form to their toss. The serve motion is easy - it's incorporating it with the toss that's hard.

[stotty]

Sampras once said, ''I hit it as hard as I can, as close to the line as I can,'' .

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-09-09/sports/9009090747_1_becker-mcenroe-sampras

I will always believe that the serve is nothing more than a throwing of the racquet. All sundry body movements that we pick out are simply the result of a high level thrower. If you can throw a racquet the length of a tennis court, flipping fast end over end, then you can stop working on that part of the technique right now. If you can't - then practice that. Most people will never get even this far because they are so concerned about control and proper form - when in reality, control on a serve is the last thing you want to have and form is just that of a throw.
For the people that can let go and throw the racquet, they should focus all of their training on the toss and the correct contact point, then spins. Take an old racquet to a field and be done with all this nonsense.

I feel in many cases you might be right. Players who can throw a tennis ball (or racket) a long way are half way there to start with. Nevertheless things can still go wrong, or be less than ideal, because an element is imperfect or missing. Andy Murray would seem to be an example of a top player with an element of his serve that is less than ideal.

I know nothing about baseball but I assume there are pitches and then there are pitches who pitch that bit better?

I think the best thing about Tennisplayer is it breaks down strokes so we can all fully understand and know what to look for. Players can become incrementally better by fixings small things.

[jdcremin]

Sampras once said, ''I hit it as hard as I can, as close to the line as I can,'' .

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-09-09/sports/9009090747_1_becker-mcenroe-sampras

I will always believe that the serve is nothing more than a throwing of the racquet. All sundry body movements that we pick out are simply the result of a high level thrower. If you can throw a racquet the length of a tennis court, flipping fast end over end, then you can stop working on that part of the technique right now. If you can't - then practice that. Most people will never get even this far because they are so concerned about control and proper form - when in reality, control on a serve is the last thing you want to have and form is just that of a throw.
For the people that can let go and throw the racquet, they should focus all of their training on the toss and the correct contact point, then spins. Take an old racquet to a field and be done with all this nonsense.

BTW - I think the best tip for problem tosses is to look at where you're starting your toss. If the ball is always going too far back, move your start point towards your back knee. It's very difficult to toss it out in front if your hand is way out in front to begin with - because the hand wants to arc back. Find your correct start point and start there every time. Some for left or right problems - adjust the starting point.

[johnyandell]

privas,

yes it's a "debated" issue here and in the larger world, but you i think summarized the reality.

[bottle]

Beautiful. A "rotorded" server (a server such as I who isn't flexible enough to get racket tip sufficiently low) should adopt an old-fashioned pre rule change serve with chest open to sky. He should bend and shift to add lowness of tip but most often not move head during business part of the motion. Then to add oomph for surprise he might try once in a while to straighten body at the same time. And he should avoid (or invent a trophy position lower than normal), since the vaunted trophy position of most tennis instruction discriminates especially against him by shortening his runway.

[privas]

Archer Bow (AB), Revisited

Wow, these comments have been so entertaining to read! Thanks everyone. The AB exists, surely as Fed and Sharapova resemble Apollo and Artemis, the great archers from the Greek pantheon. Mr. Yandell has now debunked AB as an "independent" variable, i.e. something you teach your students to do, like the "wrist snap." The Greek gods could float in the air while rotating their entire torsos like the Sampras serve, but it's nothing I will ever be able to do. I don't suppose that I'll put a label on this move (say, the "Zeus corkscrew") and teach it to my kids.
Cheers. Pedro

[GeoffWilliams]

Yes, but I have it leaded/siliconed up to 265g. Also using vs gut mains/x1 biphase crosses: 62lbs on mains, and: 62 first two down, 46 next four down, and 62 on down to bottom. The whole design of this frame, and it's stringing, is to push the sweet spot up higher, where I actually hit the ball! Feels amazing.

[studini]

So Geoff,
You are using the 110 inch frame now?

Dave

[GeoffWilliams]

The Goldstein piece, where John improved his bow/back arch, in order to get a deeper frame drop, is a dead give away that it is valid, not a myth. Look at his back arch/bow afterwards, and see if it's not been increased. It's the whole reason his contact point changed, more bow than what he started with and more balance due to it. His left hip extension out over the base line has also increased.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/your_strokes/2006/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06/paul_goldstein_serve_part2_5_01_06.html

[klacr]

What I see happening is just a consequence as well. When the weight shifts, and the knees bend (lower body moves forward) the upper body will "tilt" to "find balance".

The problem with the whole "archer's bow" thought process, is that if the lower body doesn't shift and bend, and the player tries to emulate this position, the center of mass will be "behind" them at the point the legs drive..A real bad thing.

In fact, one of the most important aspects of proper forward angular momentum (shoulder over shoulder) is that the position of the COM is nearer the left leg.

well said.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johnyandell]

10s,

Agreed.

[10splayer]

What I see happening is just a consequence as well. When the weight shifts, and the knees bend (lower body moves forward) the upper body will "tilt" to "find balance".

The problem with the whole "archer's bow" thought process, is that if the lower body doesn't shift and bend, and the player tries to emulate this position, the center of mass will be "behind" them at the point the legs drive..A real bad thing.

In fact, one of the most important aspects of proper forward angular momentum (shoulder over shoulder) is that the position of the COM is nearer the left leg.

[GeoffWilliams]

There is always a bit of time lag (and reaction time lag, mental understanding lag, strategic adjustment lag, etc.) between sight and reaction to sight, memory is all we have, past, there is no present, and future;' so memory is all we have. I don't think it's a coincidence, that the best servers, best players, best offensive defenders, all have this in common: short reaction time lag, and short memories! Choking is just an experience of a greater time lag, a staggered time lag, an extended reaction time lag. And so is bad technique. So a rose by any other name is a rose, and an archer's bow is by any other name the same. Those who don't bow don't get as deep a frame drop, or as great a kinetic path way. Less whip lash distance. Like snapping a shorter, less heavy, less deadly whip.

The fastest man alive has a .05 second time lag. How much can change in .05 sec? In that time, you can hit 12 shots on the string bed, as the ball only stays there for 4/1000th of a second. Most of us are slower than that! Ha, ha. Those who are able to slow time down are those who spend more time at least perceived, zoning. The simple truth is, the greater the bow, the faster the coil, the higher the stored energy in your split step, the more power/energy/potential you store regardless of how we describe it.