Your Strokes: Rohan Gupta Forehand

[eaglesburg]

I worked on my forehand today. The extra shoulder turn really does add noticeable power! Would you consider this forehand technically sound or does it still need a little work?

https://youtu.be/FbljAHJmi68

[johnyandell]

DB Rohan,

While I am a proponent of square stance especially in teaching, it is incorrect to call this Roger's "default" set up. It's his set up for certain balls--principally lower and closer in. You can count the number of netural versus open stances in the archives and see neutral is a rarity.
The overwhelming stance preference of Roger and all other elite players is semi open. And this has become the default as well in high level junior tennis. The reasons are ball height and torso rotation.
In basic teaching neutral stance I feel is critical--and the Spanish topspin coaches like Bruguera use it too. But that has to evolve to semi-western to hit high level technical modern forehands.

JY

[don_budge]

As John was saying…not everybody plays like Federer

Early on in this discussion John made a comment to the effect that not everybody will play like Roger Federer…I believe that I was talking about your grip. The same can be said about the philosophy of footwork.

I am firmly grounded in the classic school of tennis when it comes to teaching and coaching. That being said…of course you can see that Roger Federer hits from an open stance a good deal of the time. The speed of the game necessitates this. But his default position is in a slightly closed stance or possibly neutral. I believe that it easier to transition from neutral to open than vice versa.

Roger's default setup for a forehand…the gold standard

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

The same is philosophically true for teaching the grips. I teach an Eastern forehand and the student has the option to strengthen that if they choose down the road. It is quite doable. But to go from Western to the weaker Eastern is a bit more troublesome.

Philosophically it appears to me that you are firmly entrenched in the modern coaching paradigm of playing tennis…strong forehand grip, two handed backhand and probably venture to the net once in a blue moon. That's ok with me…but at the same time it won't hurt you to hear from the other side of the coin. As a student of the game you should be aware of different facets of the game and you should probably do some tinkering around with it as well. At any rate…have a great time with it all. Trust me…it is a great road to travel.

By the way this is only the tip of the iceberg regards my thoughts on footwork…let it suffice to say.

[don_budge]

The Direction of the Momentum...

Regarding balance...if you push me form the side while I am in a fully open stance it will be much more stable than the square stance. So it all depends where the push is coming from in terms of balance.

Actually you have answered your own question. In my demonstration of pushing I have you pushed from the front and not from the side because…isn't all of your momentum going into the ball and in the direction of your shot?

How many shots do you play to the immediate left of you? Not many I hope. So it isn't where the push is coming from…it is where the ball is coming from and going to...for that matter.

By the way…it looks to me as if your stance is open. All of the time. This is your default stance…one might say.

[don_budge]

Explanation…Part 2 The placement of the feet

Could you better explain why you prefer the square stance? '

When you talk about determining the shape of something as ethereal as a forehand swing you had better pay attention to the base from which it is swung. The swing starts down below as the shamanic Ben Hogan suggests and it works it way up the body.

The consideration with respect to modern tennis is this...if you design and build your swing on open or even semi open stance you are limiting yourself to one option. Heavy topspin. Having the ability to apply heavy topspin is obviously an asset...but the ability to flatten the stroke out enhances ones chances of hitting for depth and penetration. In order to hit this kind of ball you will need to be able to perform your swing on a platform of a closed or neutral stance. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? In this case it must be the closed and neutral stances with an eastern grip because as you are finding out...once you go western you can never go back.

This being the case there is only one player in the game today from which to emulate. His name of course is Roger Federer...The Once and Future King. When he leaves the game the void is going to be so immense that you will hear a giant sucking sound as the air makes leaving a giant balloon. The vacuum that his absence will create in the professional game will be as profound as the difference between a world with cell phones...and one that was without.

Once again...it is the "Forehand Not Gone" video. A beautiful work of art that I never tire of seeing or listening to. Even the words of the song ring in my ears to haunt me as a message to all of those beautiful women that I loved...and lost. A wistful tear can form in my eye when I think of them. But oh well...I am, or rather was a tennis player. Past tense...like them. Of all people I should realize that love means nothing. It is the irony of life in the end...at the end of the night. Good old Ferdinand.

Where was I...oh yes. Roger Federer hitting from less than perfect position. Because the base of his swing is built on the foundation of a closed or neutral stance he is compelled to swing his forehand with his feet, body and racquet lined up when he begins his move forward to the ball. Hitting from a less than perfect position...is an art. I am sure that you will agree with me when you look at this video. This is a beautiful enigmatic piece of work courtesy of John Yandell. Who is the artist of the song...btw John?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

In the music video "Forehand Not Gone", Roger Federer is hitting four forehands from less than perfect position. Notice though that he dutifully attempts to create perfect position at the moment of impact.

fh 1...backing up, left foot plants first and as he swings into the ball the right foot is backing up in line with the front

fh 2...moving to his right, right foot plants first and left comes swinging into line as he swings into the ball

fh 3...backing up, left foot plants first and right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

fh 4...backing up, left foot plants first and the right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

In the video Roger is swinging at four forehands and in three of them he is running around his backhand to his left. Since his momentum is carrying him to his left he plants his left foot first to assure himself that he has ample room to make his swing yet at the same time his right foot is backing up to bring himself into alignment with the ball. You see also that he must make a last moment adjustment by taking to the air to create just a bit more room to make his swing. Yet his head and body are perfectly still at the moment of impact.

In the single ball that he is moving to his right, at the last moment he plants his right foot a bit forward towards the net from his left foot as he tries to take the ball a bit earlier and at the same time his left foot is moving towards the ball so that at the moment of impact he is in as close to proper alignment with the ball as humanly possible.

The music video is simply a perfect example of how the forehand should be played when perfect position on the ball is not possible. Normally when I am watching Federer in a match, I like to watch just him without taking my eyes off him to watch the ball or his opponent. Coincidentally, I heard Rod Laver suggest the same thing. For instance, in the music video one can really appreciate the grace and perfect balance that Federer has when he is in the moment of truth...and that is when he has his body aligned to make his move on the ball from “get in position”. Even when he is actually in the air, off the ground, he is somehow able to achieve nearly perfect stability as he is swinging and this is evidenced with the still positioning of his head. He has the ability to achieve the Hoganesque lower body movement to the ball to initialize his swing...even with less than perfect position.

Another absolutely stunningly, brilliant music video...John. Catchy tune, too. The music coupled with the maestro's footwork and low center of gravity create...poetry in motion. Be still my beating heart!

More explaining...

[don_budge]

Explanation…Part 1 The placement of the feet

Could you better explain why you prefer the square stance? '

So why is it that the position of the feet is so important? Golfers, unlike tennis players, always begin their swings from stationary positions. Each golfer spends years learning to correctly build their stance in order that they can build a swing around it. Shaping their swings. With this in mind...remember that tennis is "golf on the run".

Every golfer up until this point has chosen to build their golf swing around a rather neutral stance...except of course perhaps "Happy Gilmore". Golfers will, however, adjust their stance accordingly from slightly closed to slightly open depending upon how they will shape a particular shot. But the default position is plus or minus...neutral. This is the position to correctly teach tennis players to swing their tennis racquets on the forehand side...the default position ought to be the neutral or slightly closed position. Like Federer...you cannot argue with this guy.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

I am going to pass along a very vital tip...from none other than Ben Hogan...the golfing icon. I have a tape of Ben Hogan and Sam Snead playing a match on an old TV series called “Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf”. These two golfing legends play a match at the Houston Country Club and afterwards both Snead and Gene Sarazan both exclaim that they have never seen a finer round of golf played than the one just completed by Hogan...he was flawless. At the conclusion of the match Sarazan asks both golfers for their comments on the most important part of the golf swing and this is what Hogan had to say.

“The most important thing of the golf swing to me, is the movement of the lower body from the top of the swing (“get in position” position). First of all, it starts down below with your knees and your hips. At the top of the swing you move the lower part of your body, not your shoulders...letting your shoulder, arms and hands bring you into position to hit. This is the first movement there (Hogan demonstrates that as he turns his hips from the top of his swing his hands come down into position without any movement from his hands) then you release at the bottom of the swing.”

After watching your videos and reading the preceding comments I felt compelled to comment on the importance of the action of the lower body in the swing...whether it be a tennis swing, a golf swing or swinging a baseball bat. There are certain fundamentals that one should be strongly advised to observe when transferring the weight of the body to most efficiently transfer the energy into the racquet head and subsequently into the ball. In order to make this most fundamental move to the ball...your feet must be in the proper position.

My contention is that any forehand that is shaped around open or semi open stances are going to have certain characteristics that are going to infringe on the maximum potential of the swing later on down the line. Forehands that are shaped around open and semi open stances tend to be too dependent upon arm motion without having the strong base underneath it from which to make maximum use of the power of the lower body.

This is fundamentally speaking of course. Tennis is a game of offense and defense so of course one must learn to swing from different stances but the default position ought to be the closed or neutral stance. Especially for beginners or fledglings.

I'm explaining...

[eaglesburg]

Absolutely wonderful on the improvisation on the wall in the garage. This is where huge strides are made…when the student learns to initiate action on their own initiative perhaps utilizing good advice. Marvellous.


Off the Wall…Michael Jackson 1979

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqS5pODuBTk

Now you can begin to chip away at that huge slab of granite that you are like Michelangelo to arrive at the inner tennis you.

You must begin by learning how to hit slightly closed stance forehands as this is the proper way to develop a forehand. The quote by gzhpcu says a mouthful…particularly with respect to your forehand.

"Groundstrokes use Ground Reaction Forces and Trunk Rotation. The square stance uses both, the open stance only the latter."

You are only utilizing trunk rotation and the ground reaction forces are being totally neglected. So how much potential energy are you under utilizing? It's a good question. To say nothing of the question of balance. With each forehand that I hit against the wall I take three little steps before I initiate the step towards the ball…cha cha cha. With these three little steps I refine my position on the ball to incrementally get just a bit better position on the ball in order the stroke has its optimum energy flow in the stroke.

Its going to seem a bit strange at first but you have already seen how quickly things can happen when you are working against the wall. Work against the wall is an infinitesimal proposition in my book. There are always discoveries to be made as well as good conditioning exercise…watching the ball exercise…the list goes on and on.

With your left foot splayed out to the left like that…how much potential energy is left out there with it? By stepping towards the ball with that left foot…the timing of the swing can be so much more effortless with that weight behind your swing instead of left dangling out there in nowhere land. Tennis is a game of energy and balance and by hitting in the manner that you are you are encouraging off balanced swings…more often.

Balance? What is balance in relationship to the forehand swing? Take an open stance like you hit and ask your coach to push you gently in the middle of your chest and see how much energy it takes to make you fall backwards. Now take a square or closed stance, sit down into your ass and lean so that your weight is into your front foot (chest over the left foot) and now ask your coach to push against your left shoulder…he can't move you. From this position you are as solid as a rock. This is the position that you want to learn to swing from…from a position of balance.

Put a piece of 8x11 paper up on that wall and aim at that. Aiming while swinging is an interesting action. You will find that by stepping towards your target that you are aiming while in motion. After you perfect this technique then you will be so much more effective at hitting open stances as you will better understand and have a better feeling for proper weight distribution and weight transfer during the swinging motion.

I already naturally close up my stance on low balls and sometimes short balls. So it's not like I never use it.
Just wondering but what is wrong with just transferring weight forward with the semi open stance. I think that the semi open stance already allows for more rotational power than the square stance. And I am still stepping forward to transfer my weight into the forehand. So I feel like the semi open stance offers the most power. Could you better explain why you prefer the square stance? '
Regarding balance...if you push me form the side while I am in a fully open stance it will be much more stable than the square stance. So it all depends where the push is coming from in terms of balance.

[don_budge]

Off the Wall…Michael Jackson

Outstanding eaglesburg! Work on the closed and semi-closed stance when working against the wall. I like hitting against the wall with the green dot balls as well…it gives you a bit more time to execute. It slows things down.

Transferring the weight properly from the feet upwards is a huge source of power that you are neglecting with your extreme open stance. By properly engaging your feet you engage the left side of your body more efficiently (on the forehand side). I believe that John's comment supports this supposition.

A video of you hitting against the wall may be very telling as well. More telling than hitting the feed balls. Let's see how much control you have on the ball. One bounce…waist high…minimum 100 times in a row. Go to work!

Not quite at a 100 in a row haha. Both because my stroke isn't good enough and my forearm isn't strong enough.

I took this video today.

https://youtu.be/WdGBMwfToPM

How is it?

Yesterday I had a lesson with my coach and he noticed the extra power, control, depth and also an improved ability to take the ball on the rise. The same things I noticed. I can honestly say that this is the biggest 1-2 week improvement I have ever had. It is amazing!

I am using Slazenger green dot balls and the felt is tearing off two balls already. Is that how all green dot balls are?

Quoting from ITF "Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis", Bruce Elliot, et al.

Groundstrokes use Ground Reaction Forces and Trunk Rotation. The square stance uses both, the open stance only the latter.


Quote:
"Like in the serve, the linear momentum during the groundstrokes begins with a Ground Force...studies have shown that players shift their weight from back-foot to the front-foot prior to impact as they push-off with the back foot. This weight transfer and push-off with the back-foot is primarily used to generate horizontal linear momentum in the direction of the shot."


It seems to me that extreme push off with the rear foot (and the body lifting up) could be a consequence of extreme horizontal linear momentum being generated.

They go on to say that there is not enough research on the whole subject.

Absolutely wonderful on the improvisation on the wall in the garage. This is where huge strides are made…when the student learns to initiate action on their own initiative perhaps utilizing good advice. Marvellous.


Off the Wall…Michael Jackson 1979

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqS5pODuBTk

Now you can begin to chip away at that huge slab of granite that you are like Michelangelo to arrive at the inner tennis you.

You must begin by learning how to hit slightly closed stance forehands as this is the proper way to develop a forehand. The quote by gzhpcu says a mouthful…particularly with respect to your forehand.

"Groundstrokes use Ground Reaction Forces and Trunk Rotation. The square stance uses both, the open stance only the latter."

You are only utilizing trunk rotation and the ground reaction forces are being totally neglected. So how much potential energy are you under utilizing? It's a good question. To say nothing of the question of balance. With each forehand that I hit against the wall I take three little steps before I initiate the step towards the ball…cha cha cha. With these three little steps I refine my position on the ball to incrementally get just a bit better position on the ball in order the stroke has its optimum energy flow in the stroke.

Its going to seem a bit strange at first but you have already seen how quickly things can happen when you are working against the wall. Work against the wall is an infinitesimal proposition in my book. There are always discoveries to be made as well as good conditioning exercise…watching the ball exercise…the list goes on and on.

With your left foot splayed out to the left like that…how much potential energy is left out there with it? By stepping towards the ball with that left foot…the timing of the swing can be so much more effortless with that weight behind your swing instead of left dangling out there in nowhere land. Tennis is a game of energy and balance and by hitting in the manner that you are you are encouraging off balanced swings…more often.

Balance? What is balance in relationship to the forehand swing? Take an open stance like you hit and ask your coach to push you gently in the middle of your chest and see how much energy it takes to make you fall backwards. Now take a square or closed stance, sit down into your ass and lean so that your weight is into your front foot (chest over the left foot) and now ask your coach to push against your left shoulder…he can't move you. From this position you are as solid as a rock. This is the position that you want to learn to swing from…from a position of balance.

Put a piece of 8x11 paper up on that wall and aim at that. Aiming while swinging is an interesting action. You will find that by stepping towards your target that you are aiming while in motion. After you perfect this technique then you will be so much more effective at hitting open stances as you will better understand and have a better feeling for proper weight distribution and weight transfer during the swinging motion.

[eaglesburg]

The wall in just a few days improved my touch shots including volleys and drop shots drastically too. It especially improved my slices on both wings. I never imagined that this kind of improvement was possible. I am enjoying it-I know it can't last too long.

[stotty]

Just love the wall work...

Not quite at a 100 in a row haha. Both because my stroke isn't good enough and my forearm isn't strong enough.

I took this video today.

https://youtu.be/WdGBMwfToPM

How is it?

Yesterday I had a lesson with my coach and he noticed the extra power, control, depth and also an improved ability to take the ball on the rise. The same things I noticed. I can honestly say that this is the biggest 1-2 week improvement I have ever had. It is amazing!

I am using Slazenger green dot balls and the felt is tearing off two balls already. Is that how all green dot balls are?

Looks a lot better I must say. The stance is much stronger. I just love the wall work...absolutely love it...very dynamic. Keep doing that and you're going to get better.

Borg spent much of his early years practicing against a wall. It stood him in great stead. He became a wall himself...incredibly difficult to beat and as tough as old boots.

[eaglesburg]

Outstanding eaglesburg! Work on the closed and semi-closed stance when working against the wall. I like hitting against the wall with the green dot balls as well…it gives you a bit more time to execute. It slows things down.

Transferring the weight properly from the feet upwards is a huge source of power that you are neglecting with your extreme open stance. By properly engaging your feet you engage the left side of your body more efficiently (on the forehand side). I believe that John's comment supports this supposition.

A video of you hitting against the wall may be very telling as well. More telling than hitting the feed balls. Let's see how much control you have on the ball. One bounce…waist high…minimum 100 times in a row. Go to work!

Not quite at a 100 in a row haha. Both because my stroke isn't good enough and my forearm isn't strong enough.

I took this video today.

https://youtu.be/WdGBMwfToPM

How is it?

Yesterday I had a lesson with my coach and he noticed the extra power, control, depth and also an improved ability to take the ball on the rise. The same things I noticed. I can honestly say that this is the biggest 1-2 week improvement I have ever had. It is amazing!

I am using Slazenger green dot balls and the felt is tearing off two balls already. Is that how all green dot balls are?

[don_budge]

The eaglesburg Wall...

I got that wall set up in my garage using green dot transition balls and it's working pretty well (thanks for the wall suggestion @don_budge!)

Good report.

You need to improve the turn and also the stance. In competition the use of the shoulders makes the extension more a natural uncoiling driven by the body--less susceptible to contracting under pressure.

Outstanding eaglesburg! Work on the closed and semi-closed stance when working against the wall. I like hitting against the wall with the green dot balls as well…it gives you a bit more time to execute. It slows things down.

Transferring the weight properly from the feet upwards is a huge source of power that you are neglecting with your extreme open stance. By properly engaging your feet you engage the left side of your body more efficiently (on the forehand side). I believe that John's comment supports this supposition.

A video of you hitting against the wall may be very telling as well. More telling than hitting the feed balls. Let's see how much control you have on the ball. One bounce…waist high…minimum 100 times in a row. Go to work!

[johnyandell]

Good report.

You need to improve the turn and also the stance. In competition the use of the shoulders makes the extension more a natural uncoiling driven by the body--less susceptible to contracting under pressure.

[eaglesburg]

Extension looks great!!! Get that turn now please. Semi open stance you aren't there yet.

Timing of how long to master? What do you believe? How well are you using your image keys? Can you stay in the process? It's less duration than how you manage that.

I spent about an hour a couple days ago working purely on extension. I did a lot of handfed stuff slowly moving back to the baseline. I made sure to catch the racket out in front each time. It was ingrained pretty well. Practiced it again next day also and able to maintain the new technique in rallies. Hitting through the ball more also naturally helped close up my stance especially during the handfed drills.

But yesterday I went back to my old forehand during a match.

However later yesterday it was fine in noncompetitive hitting. Today it was also great.

I believe that it should only take a few weeks at this rate. Every time I need to check my extension I just catch my racket out in front. The handfed stuff was the thing that helped me a lot. What do you mean by can you stay in the process?

Thanks to your tips in the article John!
For sure there is easier and more power and penetration and depth. Still good topspin. Cleaner contact and easier to control. I feel much improved on low balls. I will try to take a video tomorrow; I got that wall set up in my garage using green dot transition balls and it's working pretty well (thanks for the wall suggestion @don_budge!)

On a side note: another thing I have noticed is my grip often adjusts ( my thumb and fingers move a little bit closer together making space between my palm and the grip) during the swing. Making sure to not allow this to happen has improved the quality of my balls also. It feels more stable and clean and solid at contact.

[johnyandell]

Extension looks great!!! Get that turn now please. Semi open stance you aren't there yet.

Timing of how long to master? What do you believe? How well are you using your image keys? Can you stay in the process? It's less duration than how you manage that.