Question on the Two-Hander

[lukman41985]

John,
I have a question about torso rotation, stances, and the different hitting arm combos. To me, it seems, that the straight-bent combo can be hit more effectively with a closed stance than the bent-bent combo can. From my own experience, the straight-bent combo works better in the closed stance because the straightened back arm provides more extension through the shot, from a closed stance, than the bent arm does. I feel that the bent-bent combo, with the bent back arm, requires more body rotation to get the racquet going through the ball. Conversely, on open stance shots, it feels to me like the bent-bent combo works better than the straight-bent combo because the open stance fulfills the body rotation requirement for the bent-bent combo. But hitting bent-straight from an open stance is difficult for me because the straight back arm seems to come off the shot more and just feel awkward. Perhaps you can confirm my thoughts by answering this question: do you find bent-bent players hitting fewer closed stance backhands than bent-straight players; do you find bent-bent players hitting more open stance backhands than bent-straight players? Thanks for your time and consideration. BTW great new issue, especially the last installment on the two-hander and the music video! I'm sitting on pins and needles to see if some of my thoughts on Andy's two-hander are confirmed in your forecoming analysis.

Sincerely,
Lukman

[johnyandell]

You can see plenty of bent/bent players step in and hit neutral or closed, like Sharapova or Davenport and also Davydenko. If the grip is weak like Venus, then no. I can't say that I could put a number on it or think that it matters. Count them in the Stroke Archive if you really want that answer. Not sure how this relates to you experience. Moya hits open as do most of the straight/bent guys. You continue to ask questions that relate to your strokes but unless I can actually look at them I can't speculate.


http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...heLineRear.mov

I think the choice is not really about stances. It's about the natural comfort a player has in how he uses the arms.

[lukman41985]

You continue to ask questions that relate to your strokes but unless I can actually look at them I can't speculate.

John,
It's not about me nor am I making it about me or my strokes. I'm talking about things from a theoretical point of view. Don't you do the same thing? Didn't you do the same thing in your latest article on the two-hander when discussing the whole issue of contact points? I don't appreciate your dismissiveness and the tone of annoyance that accompanies your responses to my posts. In all my exchanges with you, I've never treated you with anything but the highest regard. I treat you with the utmost respect and truly admire all your great work. Without you, I don't think I would have learned much of what I know about as a tennis player. I may not be you, Bungalo, Scott Murphy, Kerry Mitchell, et al. in that I tend to pose more questions and observations than answers, but I think that's important. It gives you and all the members something to think about. Clearly videos are of paramount importance to you and I understand that. Your system works. That is why I ask you questions based on what you see in the video. Again, it's not about me. I wouldn't make it about me unless I was posting in the Your Strokes video. I guess I'll hurry up and get my video in, that is of course you're not further put off by this posting or any others I make in the future. We are all members of the community you have established here. By the way, a little respect goes a long way. You may be a pioneer, but you're not above anyone. Especially when I've gone out of my way to thank you for your work, defended you against attacks on the TW message boards, and done my part in getting the word out about tennisplayer.net.

-Lukman

[johnyandell]

Hey Lukman,

Sorry if I have offended you and yeah you are probably right that I have become somewhat dismissive. I'll cop to that. I appreciate your love for the game and enthusiasm. It's difficult sometimes because as you get to know people thru their posts they do become somewhat predictable and I should develop more tolerance. I'm the one who started all this, right? And the idea is an open Forum, righht? At the same time you might learn something here yourself about yourself, which is the statement inside the question does tend to become annoying. It's not just with your posts. I see it in a lot of people. And sometimes I don't have the energy to try to divine the assumptions behind the statements, and address and dissect those. But the more I learn I see that it comes down to the assumptions more than the statements.

I do try to answer you honestly when it comes to the material on the site. But I don't think it's on me to necessarily answer all factual questions posed, particularly when the answers are usually there to be divined with a little research. It doesn't take a lot for example to click on some of the guys with Straight/Bent arm configurations and see--gee they all hit with open stance at times and look pretty darn good doing it.

So touche and I will try to do better.

John

[lukman41985]

John,
You're a class act and of course you're going to apologize. I just wanted you to know that you're too good for being dismissive like that. Noone doubts the demands on your time, but we you to enjoy all your time with us--seriously. We're not just paying customers--we want to be your colleagues and your inspiration. Maybe that's asking too much--but I don't care. You're an inspiring guy and I think you're just too good for that kind of behavior. So relax. No doubt you have Nalbandian, Moya, Nadal, Hewitt, et al. hitting open stance. But how good are the shots produced by these open stance two-handers? Come on, do you really want Moya's backhand? When I think Moya, maybe, to quote Ben Stiller, I'm on crazy pills, but I think Spaniard with a big forehand...And Hewitt, that backhand is steady, but beyond that...and Nadal...ok...dude's got game but that backhand is definitely secondary when you think about Nadal...how 'bout the Spaniards heart or his physiquee...So okay, you're human. I knew that. I'm sorry for ranting. But I care dearly about your insights and this sight, and maybe even about you, thought I don't know you beyond the tennis sphere. But I know passion when I see it, and behind a passionate talent is a passionate person...and passion is a good thing and you're a good man, no doubt. So thank you for your apology and I'm sorry to bother you. Good luck with it all!

Sincerely,
Lukman

[johnyandell]

Oh I think they hit pretty well. Moya's backhand? Well there are .0001 percent of all two-handed players who shouldn't want i, ie, a few guys ahead of him on the computer.

[Bungalow Bill]

John,
I have a question about torso rotation, stances, and the different hitting arm combos. To me, it seems, that the straight-bent combo can be hit more effectively with a closed stance than the bent-bent combo can. From my own experience, the straight-bent combo works better in the closed stance because the straightened back arm provides more extension through the shot, from a closed stance, than the bent arm does. I feel that the bent-bent combo, with the bent back arm, requires more body rotation to get the racquet going through the ball. Conversely, on open stance shots, it feels to me like the bent-bent combo works better than the straight-bent combo because the open stance fulfills the body rotation requirement for the bent-bent combo. But hitting bent-straight from an open stance is difficult for me because the straight back arm seems to come off the shot more and just feel awkward. Perhaps you can confirm my thoughts by answering this question: do you find bent-bent players hitting fewer closed stance backhands than bent-straight players; do you find bent-bent players hitting more open stance backhands than bent-straight players? Thanks for your time and consideration. BTW great new issue, especially the last installment on the two-hander and the music video! I'm sitting on pins and needles to see if some of my thoughts on Andy's two-hander are confirmed in your forecoming analysis.

Sincerely,
Lukman

Hi Lukman,

I see what you are saying, but I also see players with either "arms" hitting from all stances. I really dont think the arms have the most attention on whether the open stance or closed stance will be used, it really depends on preference and what a player is most comfortable with.

Maybe from a very technical sense you have observed this to be a trend but there is other trends that may nuetralize this and say the opposite.

I come from the camp that with bent arms and slightly bent arms that a lot more "comfort" exists. More rotational on the straight arm. But many bent arm twohanders straighten their arms through contact.

There was an analysis by Pat Dougherty that the bent arms was more related to the grips chosen then the swing style or stance. All twohanders need rotation in that it is similar to the forehand.

Hope that helps.