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A New Teaching System: The Forehand Keying Process

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  • johnyandell
    replied
    Outward toward the opponent's side. It's moving on a curve but it is still moving in that direction.

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  • pvchen
    replied
    Ah, thanks for the explanation. That makes sense about the swing continuing to go up.

    Can you explain which which direction is "outward"? The shoulders are turning through the shot so "out" from the body could mean toward the side fence at the beginning of the swing, but toward the net at contact.

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  • johnyandell
    replied
    The main reason I have chosen it is that it works! But the extension of the swing includes the upward component--- which is to eye level. Usually that is also the point at which the racket is pointing furthest toward the opponent--because as it comes upward it is still traveling forward. With Rafa you sometimes see the extension happen before the hand crosses to the opposite shoulder--but even he comes to eye level at some point. You see something of the same tendency at times with Fed but less. But Fed and most double bend players make my extension position on most drives. If you truly master the position you will feel why. It creates the perfect combination of outward and upward. The image activates this. Of course there are variations but this is the basis. Technically the racket is slowed down so much by ball impact that after contact is all deceleration. But the racket slows most radically when it starts backwards in the wrap. The most common error I see with club players is breaking off the extension too fast. This position corrects that.

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  • pvchen
    replied
    Hi John,

    Interesting here that you've broken down the forehand to two key positions. Keep it simple is usually a sound policy.

    I'm interested to know why you have chosen the part of the forehand where the wrist is at eye level and crossed over the opposite shoulder as the extension position. It seems to me that this position is part of the release or follow through of the shot. Is there another position earlier in the shot where the hand is at it's most forward position, more in line with the path of the ball? I'm thinking mostly of Fed's straight arm forehand, where you can see the arm pointing almost straight ahead before the arm bends and the hand follows through toward the opposite (left) shoulder. Isn't that the maximum extension position?

    thanks,
    Peter

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  • bmonsour
    replied
    Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post

    Bmonsour,

    you might enjoy an article I put up here about Timing and the Feel of the Racket Head, under Classic Lessons

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...cket_head.html

    don
    Thanks Don! That's a great piece on timing (both of them, once I found the 2nd part). I'm going to start trying some of the drills you suggested.

    Regards,
    -Bob


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  • klacr
    replied
    As long as someone learns something it is a valid post. Let the learning begin. Visual imaging was the start of this thread and some great posts talked about it, it did meander, but these threads will often make a complete 360 and go back to its original idea, a natural cycle if you will. It may take time, or one greatest to wrap it all up.

    The key images on this forehand series are instrumental in helping students, just like key images in all other strokes. We all have our own ideas on what the a great shot looks like and feels like, critical we get our students to see that or something similar that can get them there. We owe that to our students and owe that to ourselves.

    Talk about forehands, talk about serves, talk about backhands and my beloved volleys. Just make it count and just like great strokes, don't stress on making it perfect, stress on making it purposeful.

    Happy Holidays everyone

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

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  • hockeyscout
    replied
    Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post

    This happens all the time. Threads nearly always end up meandering. You can always bring it back on track of course by posting your own thoughts on the original subject matter. I have done this many times when I feel a thread has gone off topic too early.

    Stotty
    Jesus, let the talent here meander man! Christ, that is the only way you get better. Let don_budge, bottle, Geoff Williams, tennis_chiro, ECT, go off topic, talk out loud, share ideas without people ganging up on them and see what happens. God, I hate people always wanting to say on topic. Its nuts. We've got a few guys on this board who are just wild stallions - so, let em fucking run hard. AS long as they are actively engaged in tennis and not in dreamland - shit, what more do you want? They will get focused in a traditional sense when its time to think about closing the deal and winning. I was watching this video of Fedor, creative as hell getting ready for the fight, and then I saw another one of him on the mat where he was mean as hell, and god, you could tell he was a week away from the fight. You learn a ton about mentality when you work with guys in MMA, creative as hell, meandering, playing with things, and one week before a fight, mean as hell and its best to leave em alone. I got my older daughter something interesting for Xmas - I found the best camera man in our village. He starts on the 12th of the month and he will follow her around all day. The only issue is he works for the police, and when their is a major accident they come and pick him up and take him away from us. Oh, well, I can deal with that one. But, she said, "I don't like this camera idea, its traditional. I want a droan. 360. I will see everything." My buddy is the NHL photographer for USA Today so I will get him on the phone, and figure this one out - shooting tennis with a drone. Crazy. I tell you, I trust her, and you know what if she thinks it will work, guess what -- IT WILL. Belief, if you have it, results are enevitable. You gotta trust your creative people, and tennis is a process of much internatization. But, thats the thing, let your horses run. If they go off track, meander off topic - who cares, at least they are thinking tennis and going in a direction that will be positive in terms of end results. This is why I will never put my kid EVER in a USA, Russian, Ukrainian or Canadian developmental program. Imagine her bringing her drone and heavy metal music to practice, having fun and doing something thats not following the norm. Screw it, she will set up her own deal, and be her own person (I hope). Look at Trump, he's running the White House out of Trump tower. Fuck em, I hope he never sets foot in the White House. I ain't setting foot in the national facilities, cause I am my own man. Well, I do go to the National Institute of Sport in Kiev - but, I am mentoring their head trainer. He is a great guy, and I always have time for him.

    So, please Slotty stop playing moderator, whining, complaining and trying to bring the orderly LTA approach to this board. It doesn't work, and it holds the stallions back. And, why would we want to do that? The posts here lately have been at a whole new level this board hasn't ever seen.
    Last edited by hockeyscout; 12-28-2016, 06:59 PM.

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  • bottle
    replied
    Good.

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by dipperhitter View Post
    This thread now has nothing to do with it's original purpose. Personally I don't care about Nastase's antiquated serve motion. I did learn a lot from watching Yandell boil the forehand down to a couple of images.
    This happens all the time. Threads nearly always end up meandering. You can always bring it back on track of course by posting your own thoughts on the original subject matter. I have done this many times when I feel a thread has gone off topic too early.

    Stotty

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    The Wind-up...and the Pitch. Thwack!

    Originally posted by dipperhitter View Post
    This thread now has nothing to do with it's original purpose. Personally I don't care about Nastase's antiquated serve motion. I did learn a lot from watching Yandell boil the forehand down to a couple of images.
    Personally I never get tired looking at this sweet, elegant and perfect service motion. I watched it about 150 times since Stotty posted it. But that might just be the difference between you and I...which I can appreciate as well.

    Incidentally you are invited to read the thread that surrounded this service motion. It's quite good...I assure you. That is...if you enjoy serve and volley classic tennis.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w...se-serve_sport

    Leave a comment:


  • dipperhitter
    replied
    This thread now has nothing to do with it's original purpose. Personally I don't care about Nastase's antiquated serve motion. I did learn a lot from watching Yandell boil the forehand down to a couple of images.

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post
    Ilie Nastase versus Arthur Ashe...1972 U. S. Open Finals

    He and Arthur Ashe are trading punches. This was such a great match...I wrote a thread about it.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...-s-open-finals

    You guys have to read this thread again. I dare you. In its entirety. I love the criticism I was drawing. Like a magnet. The criticism made the thread into what it was. One of the better threads. Check out my post in #62 I think it was...deplorable. Don't you just love irony. Don't you just love old classic tennis Grand Slam finals. That Ilie Nastase sure was a character. I guess that makes me one too. Oh well...I'll just have to live with it.

    Please read...pretty please.

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  • don_budge
    replied
    Ilie Nastase versus Arthur Ashe...1972 U. S. Open Finals

    Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post

    A decent serve...love the sound effects. Unusual the way he slopes back on his haunches, then slopes back a little more to kick the serve off.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w...se-serve_sport

    Stotty
    A decent serve? It's perfect in my book. Not perhaps the biggest or the fastest but it is slippery, silky and slinky smooth. Ilie Nastase is moving the serve around the box to. He's a cagey fox beneath his cuckoo veneer. His tactics are right out of Stan Smith's book...his tactics are as a matter of fact the old classic given.

    The motion of Ilie Nastase is initiated with a little bounce of the hands and a very subtle and abbreviated forward press. A glimpse of whats to come. Is it a coincidence that his racquet is point directly at his target in his set up position. What a set up it is too. He comes to this exact same position every single time and gives it a single bounce and away he goes. Same with the second serve. He returns from his aborted trip to the net and swings the back foot into position just as he bounces the ball and without further ado...away he goes again.

    The backswing is a beauty. He comes right down the line of his feet and his racquet is virtually dangling from his hand as it begins its ascent up the track. Keep in mind it is a track...as in the rollercoaster. Once his racquet gets to the very top of his motion his knees are bent in their fullest bend and together the racquet falls behind him as the legs begin to thrust upwards and forwards...the racquet is propelled into the loop behind him and it comes out of that loop with a vengeance...thus the resounding thwack!!!

    He and Arthur Ashe are trading punches. This was such a great match...I wrote a thread about it.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...-s-open-finals

    Two fantastic finals in 1972 featuring Ilie Nastase. My role model in 1972. "Nasty".

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post
    A Little Bit More on the Service Game...



    Thinking about what he was doing next and all the while knowing what he had done previously. These guys keep a book on all the batters they face. They try to analyze where they like the ball and where they don't like it. Then they pitch around the plate strategically.

    Serving is much the same sort of challenge. Understanding your opponent and reading him like a book. It's great to be able to overpower guys but even more satisfying to outsmart them and frustrate them with your tactics. Stan Smith lays it out in just a few minutes. Three spins...three locations from which to serve from...four targets...two speeds. That is a lot of permutations and combinations.

    The perfect motion. Gonzalez, McEnroe and Sampras...more or less "natural" motions. Ilie Nastase in the same vein. But Stan Smith himself wasn't such a natural it seems...or looks like. Yet when you look at his motion it is every bit as good as the "natural" servers. Every bit as effective. He gets his rollercoaster car on track and throws the ball on the track and voila...there you have it. One of the most effective serves of his era.

    The perfect motion is attainable. Nice to have the gift of the natural motion but in his video Stan Smith, himself an example of the made man, shows us how to develop the repeatability and reliability in a swing if you one is not so naturally inclined.

    One of my favorite Wimbledons...the dark horse loses. The Petulant One.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddbyDGVtAnw

    Look at the forehand volley at 5.12 to save match point. Nastaste really "collarbones" it.
    A decent serve...love the sound effects. Unusual the way he slopes back on his haunches, then slopes back a little more to kick the serve off.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w...se-serve_sport

    Stotty

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  • klacr
    replied
    When it comes to serving, plan your work and work your plan. Serving is the start of the point, choose wisely and the rest of the point can be manageable, start carelessly and you'll face the consequences. What starts in chaos ends in chaos. Don't start the serve in chaos.

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

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