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Your Strokes: Ingrid Neel Serve

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  • johnyandell
    started a topic Your Strokes: Ingrid Neel Serve

    Your Strokes: Ingrid Neel Serve

    Would love to get your thoughts on my article "Your Strokes: Ingrid Neel Serve"

  • klacr
    replied
    I'm sure Ingrid's new serve helped her in this match. Nice article. Ingrid's Florida Gators won the ITA national Indoors this past weekend.

    http://www.postbulletin.com/sports/l...87d467ec1.html

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton



    Leave a comment:


  • johnyandell
    replied
    Jeff,
    Thanks for the input. But when you say lean forward at what point in the swing and which direction?
    John

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  • gzhpcu
    replied
    Hi Jeff, it is a question of transferring the speed of the components of the kinetic chain sequentially to the racket isn't it? As each component brakes, it transfers its speed to the subsequent, higher component.

    Leave a comment:


  • jschaff
    replied
    The speed of the racket and internal rotation of the R shoulder is dependent on maintaining and increasing the kinetic energy of the racket head throughout the stroke. Federer does this better than Ingrid for a couple of reasons, but neither is a gender specific reason.

    !. Watch as Federer's upper body stays back a little more than Ingrid's at the point of maximal velocity of the right arm movement. This deceleration of the upper body forward allows the potential energy to translate into greater kinetic energy in the right arm. This speeds up the racket and because it is attached to the shoulder, and the only way the right arm can go at that point is to increase the speed of the internal rotation.

    2. Federer can do this because his core strength is likely greater than Ingrid's. She leans forward in a compensatory attempt to add power to her serve. LOTS of people, in fact EVERYONE thinks this is the way to add power. Well it's not. Power is directly related to energy. So increasing the energy directly increases the power increases the speed of the serve directly increases the accuracy of the serve.

    If you want to see this in action, watch Camila Giorgi. Wow, for such a small person she generates ridiculous amount of racket head speed/ kinetic energy. And she is core strong.

    I would recommend that Ingrid get stronger in the core, then practice keeping her upper body back to increase the kinetic energy/racket head speed.

    Jeff Schaffer, BSMechEng, MD, long time tennis player/mechanics observer
    Texas

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  • stotty
    replied
    Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post

    I also use the following two drills to try to emphasize internal shoulder rotation as a critical element of the serve. I can actually stand there going through the first of these two drills while someone keeps their finger under my right elbow - ... because I'm very comfortable hitting up at the ball. Until you can really do that, even though it is kind of in slow motion, you are unlikely to take full advantage of the available power of good internal shoulder rotation when you go to execute the full speed full range swing.

    Sorry, but I recorded these years ago and I didn't do a very good job on the audio and you will have to turn it up a bit to hear me, but it works.

    2: The "Snap" and the Beginnings of the "Burp" Drill
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxmoQ4HhRA

    don
    I like the teaching progressions of the Burp Drill. The positioning of the racket head on contact is also critical, which is nicely pointed out. I think students have to be careful not to throw the ball too far in front either as this can inhibit the rotations also.

    Stotty

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  • johnyandell
    replied
    And as high as possible. Check for the hand and arm rotation by stopping her in that position or video

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  • arturohernandez
    replied
    Thanks for the drills and advice!

    I regularly have my daughter throw the ball in the box. One nice drill I would do is to alternate throwing and serving tennis balls. That seemed to help a lot with timing and rhythm.

    I will try throwing the football into the box as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • tennis_chiro
    replied
    Originally posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Very nice don and very clear. Send the links to Andy Murray....
    I wish. But can you imagine Andy Murray serving first serves at 145mph?!

    don

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  • gzhpcu
    replied
    Very nice don and very clear. Send the links to Andy Murray....

    Leave a comment:


  • tennis_chiro
    replied
    It's great to have a talented player like Ingrid, but even with the talented players, I often have a hard time getting the concept of internal shoulder rotation over to them as easily as it seems JY has gotten through to Miss Neel here, at least when it comes to actually hitting the ball. In your less advanced players who are much more wedded to the forehand grip, it's tough to get them to stop sliding under the ball. I've found it really helpful to have them turn around and hit the ball against the back fence where they lose the urge to get the ball over the net. I insist that they hit the ball with an easy motion, but have the ball hit the fence at the same height they are contacting the ball as opposed to hitting it down. This seems to help them be able to meet the ball squarely without "sliding under the ball". Once they get the feel of that, it is a little easier to turn them around and tell them to do the same thing over the net.

    I also use the following two drills to try to emphasize internal shoulder rotation as a critical element of the serve. I can actually stand there going through the first of these two drills while someone keeps their finger under my right elbow - ... because I'm very comfortable hitting up at the ball. Until you can really do that, even though it is kind of in slow motion, you are unlikely to take full advantage of the available power of good internal shoulder rotation when you go to execute the full speed full range swing.

    Sorry, but I recorded these years ago and I didn't do a very good job on the audio and you will have to turn it up a bit to hear me, but it works.

    2: The "Snap" and the Beginnings of the "Burp" Drill
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxmoQ4HhRA

    3: The Beginning of the "Bubble" Drill, Hitting from the "Trophy" position
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzUB5wjEIzQ

    This is part of a longer sequence of drills I give my students to help them develop their serves. And if anyone has any ideas on how to break their students from that tendency to "slide under the ball" and lurch out into the court, I'd love to hear it. Getting this basic upward hitting action on the ball is absolutely critical to developing a good serve.

    I hope this helps a little.

    don

    Leave a comment:


  • johnyandell
    replied
    Arturo,
    Football throws are great. I like to have players throw a football as high as they can and still land in the service box. Same with a tennis ball. I have them stop and observe the hand the amount of rotation. As for your question in the other thread. The answer is right here for you in the article on Ingrid.

    Leave a comment:


  • arturohernandez
    replied
    Thank you!! This makes it so clear that one little small motion can make a difference. I have read a lot over the years on this as my serve needed major work. I ended up using all this information when I taught my kids. As I wrote in the other thread on men's and women's serve, my daughter has been told to hit the ball harder and snap the wrist by a local teaching pro that runs the group lessons. My son was also advised when he was younger to hit the ball harder.

    Based on my reading and reading others views on the core problem with most servers and players, I decided early on to NEVER have my kids hit hard.

    I always emphasized smooth.

    That seems to me to be the reason that a server as talented as Ingrid would not rotate the shoulder.

    The words used are always things like snap or hard which makes people tighten up.

    It's kind of what Andy Murray used to (or might still) do when he served.

    My mental image is that the body kind of throws its energy up and that when people tighten up to create a "harder" contact they don't allow the energy to be released.

    I bought John's legendary book on Amazon from a library (it was really cheap but I couldn't get it any other way as it was out of print).

    Going forward I wonder whether my daughter could develop a feel for what the wrist should do now.

    I have experimented with various methods.

    But in the end there is a contradiction.

    A player wants to contact the ball (at least in his/her mind) square with the ball.

    But the serve is so fast that we actually have to imagine that we are hitting the ball to the side at contact.

    Otherwise, we will contact it square and not rotate out enough.

    Great article!!

    Leave a comment:


  • klacr
    replied
    The witness.

    It was great to meet Ingrid and host her at my club. She is a great student and one heck of a player. Some really nice attacking, serve and volley skills as well. She's not afraid of the forecourt. Seeing John work with her up close it was interesting to watch the methodology and its results. After a few serves of her "old" way, it was easy to spot the flaw on video. Once the diagnosis was made the adjustment took place. A quick explanation, some visual evidence in Federer, some visualization exercises and by golly, like someone turned on a light switch it happened that sudden...she got it!

    I went to the other side to actually feel the difference in returning the serve and it was even more impressive. Its something that no video can truly show...just how it feels to return a well hit, heavy ball. You may see it and you may assume, but you never know until you actually do it. Ingrid's speed increased a bit, which was great, but more amazing was the amount of spin and heaviness the ball had.

    Ingrid's serve before: quick but like returning a ping pong ball.
    Ingrid's serve after: Fast, heavy, like returning a bowling ball.

    The change was that immediate and that profound. Great job Ingrid. Great Job John. It was a pleasure to watch and help in the process.

    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
    Boca Raton

    Leave a comment:

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