My Son's Backhand Volley

[stotty]

A few weeks ago I opened my big mouth and said my son had a world-class backhand volley. Of course hockeyscout jumps straight down my throat and gives me a barrage of insults. Nothing new there, I have had to put with that for a while now. Every time I post a student, he's the first guy in there telling me I am the worst coach he's ever come across.

But I am no hockeyscout. I deal in facts not fantasy. You may or may not agree with me about my son's backhand volley but at least I am willing to post it and let others judge for themselves.

It's hard to convey the true quality of a shot in video clips. I placed my son deep in the court to play some of these volleys to give an idea how well he hits it even from this position. He can them hard from deep in the court. The third one in the clip is moving quick even in slow motion. I added a couple of backhand smashes in there too. He hits these technically well and hard.

I took these clips yesterday. He hasn't played for 4 months because he is at university these days. He's rusty but still hits his backhand volley cleanly and well. Not at its best but close enough.

He goes back to university tomorrow.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57xax3

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zp3z

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zpua

Stotty

[klacr]

Good stuff Stotty. Hits it with great pace. From one backhand volleyer to another, I approve. Thanks for sharing. How old is he? Did you have him when you were 10 years old?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Good stuff Stotty. Hits it with great pace. From one backhand volleyer to another, I approve. Thanks for sharing. How old is he? Did you have him when you were 10 years old?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Thanks for the kind words. And, yes, your backhand volley was comfortably my favourite shot of yours when you posted your array of strokes..

My son is 19 years old. They do group up, you know!

I added a couple more clips. The third clip on the list was done at the end of the shoot where he was starting to get his feel going. You get a sense of this in the clip compared to the others done earlier in the session.

I will post it here for you:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zpua

Stotty

[arturohernandez]

The bh volley looks nice. The take back is a bit too long but then again he is going for pace. My main question is how he handles a variety of volleys. I assume that under pressure he will shorten up his backswing and that he can hit touch volleys as well.

Does he hit a one handed backhand?

[stotty]

The bh volley looks nice. The take back is a bit too long but then again he is going for pace. My main question is how he handles a variety of volleys. I assume that under pressure he will shorten up his backswing and that he can hit touch volleys as well.

Does he hit a one handed backhand?

Thanks for the feedback. He does tend to take license with the higher volleys with his backswing, but generally he can adjust that in relation to the time he's got. He has good hands and feel and can hit volleys well at any height.

There is an anomaly with his backhand volley which I was hoping someone might spot. I will leave it a couple of days to see if anyone discovers it. It's interesting.

He has a two-handed backhand but he could easily have been one-hander. When he was young he chose to go two-handed as he felt it was more secure. He does have a good sliced backhand. I was mindful to give him a conservative grip on his two-hander so that he could release and hit a decent sliced backhand on demand. Of course this is an asset that has translated into his backhand volley.

It was very important to me to develop his one-banded slice backhand right from when he first started playing. I really wanted him to have that asset. I also wanted him to be an accomplished volleyer.

Stotty

[tennis_chiro]

... It's hard to convey the true quality of a shot in video clips. I placed my son deep in the court to play some of these volleys to give an idea how well he hits it even from this position. He can them hard from deep in the court. The third one in the clip is moving quick even in slow motion. I added a couple of backhand smashes in there too. He hits these technically well and hard.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57xax3

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zp3z

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zpua

Stotty

Stotty,

I took a look at your son’s bh volley. The first clip that you posted consisted of volleys from the service line with pretty long backswings. To me, those were more like what I call Drive Volleys with a much larger backswing. And I would say he hit those really well, and I would say he would handle those shots really well in transition to the net, something too many players are unable to do.

The problem is, you have to be able to handle balls below the waist and the net and even below the knees to effectively serve and volley. The other clips give a better sense of his volley closer to the net with a somewhat shorter backswing. In the context of just about the only technique you see in today’s players, I’d say his technique is pretty good in that he maintains the “u” pretty well and there is very little ulnar deviation in his forward stroke whereas most current players use too much radial deviation in the backswing and chop down on the ball with ulnar deviation.

Still, for me, all of these volleys, including Federer’s are inherently deficient. When the racket head starts so much above the contact point and finishes so far below it, it becomes really tough to effectively handle sharp balls below the net, much less below your knees. I think this is a skill that has been mostly lost to today’s players.

For my tastes, even Stepanek as perhaps the best among today’s players, takes the racket too high in preparation for this shot, but you can see the racket doesn’t move below the ball much as he completes the action:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lley/1st_serve

Your son’s initial service line volleys are very comparable to Henman’s here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...pro_men/timhen

But I want to see the skill to make this kind of a volley:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...THBHVSide4.mov

Notice the way Tim’s racket moves initially behind the ball below his knees. I don’t think the players whose initial reaction for a backhand volley is to pull the racket head up above their shoulders will ever be able to effectively volley this kind of a shot. I would say it is a weakness in Roger’s volleying repertoire, even as good as his hands are.

We don’t have as clear clips of the past, but this one gives you a little idea of the way Laver handles a low volley. Notice how he almost reaches forward to the ball as he aligns the racket head behind the ball. He doesn’t allow the racket head to get up above his shoulders:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...eBHVFront2.mov

To really see what I’m talking about you need to pull up archival footage from matches involving players from the past like Sedgeman, Gonzales, Laver, Rosewall or more recently Cash, Edberg, McEnroe.

To volley really well, you need to move the racketface immediately towards the ball. If your first reaction is to take the racket back, you are already lost against high speed and especially low shots. The great volleyers reached forward to the ball and put the racket head right behind the ball where they could impart significant “stick” on the ball from below the net with a very compact stroke that directed a very large portion of the energy of the stroke to the ball. Your son’s stroke is going down at almost a 45 degree angle and maybe more; only a small portion of the power is actually going into the ball.

I’ve put together a few clips from my youtube channel that better describe my attitude on this:

Youtube backhand volley clips
BasicBhVly3Hyb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ycu7Pm-YwQ

LowBhVly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKmD1PVA-e0

LowBhVly1 SloMo (first 2 my way and the next 2 more of a downward chop like Stotty's son)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1GsiRC5vFw&t=16s

LowBhVly2 Slo Mo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Rp_uh8L18

LowBhVly3 SloMo - Really Good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=najwOrxuYnE

And here's a good example of that volley in actual live play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv6cdI6-QtY

If you are really interested in seeing me go all through this with one of my students, you can download the following video of me working with a young junior in the summer of 2015. I was fortunate to have his mom, a professional photographer, doing the recording. It’s too much of a piece to post here, but if you want to download it, it will download fairly quickly with a broadband connection. However, be forewarned, it is about 1.7 Gb long. I really like the quality of the video and the way I was making some of my points to the young man. I think it does a good job of explaining what I mean by taking the racket to the ball as opposed to making a backswing away from the ball:

TaishiBHnet

https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/mkNmm

I’ll be very curious what you think about my take on this. The critical point is I feel the correct move is forward to and behind the ball (and below it for the low ball) to be able to handle sharp returns below your knees. And if you can’t do that, there is no point in trying to serve and volley. Remember those days when we would skin our knees making a good volley? (Think Pat Cash digging out volleys against Lendl!) Don’t see that much anymore! And when the racket head gets immediately pulled up above your shoulder, it is really hard to hit a sharp ball down around your ankles.

If your son, or anyone else, really wants to be able to handle reaction volleys from a formidable ground stoker in today’s game, he needs to learn an additional skill. I think he has a great drive volley, but I’m looking for something more, … and I have a hard time finding it in even the best players in the world today. You see these skills in some of the 35 to 45 year old doubles players who are still ranked in the top 20 in the world. Most of the younger doubles standouts rely on a different set of skills, but those skills have allowed some senior citizens to hang around in the upper ranks of the doubles game much longer than would have been expected (Paes, Bhupathi, Nestor, Zimonjic, Bryans, Mirnyi). I think the lack of this skill is why the prevailing sentiment is that today’s groundies are too fast for anyone to volley; with the standard technique employed today, that’s true. But if they had the technique of a Sedgeman/Smith/Newcombe/Rosewall/Cash/Edberg it would be a different story.

Anyway, curious to hear what all of you think.

don

[don_budge]

A few weeks ago I opened my big mouth and said my son had a world-class backhand volley. Of course hockeyscout jumps straight down my throat and gives me a barrage of insults. Nothing new there, I have had to put with that for a while now. Every time I post a student, he's the first guy in there telling me I am the worst coach he's ever come across.

But I am no hockeyscout. I deal in facts not fantasy. You may or may not agree with me about my son's backhand volley but at least I am willing to post it and let others judge for themselves.

It's hard to convey the true quality of a shot in video clips. I placed my son deep in the court to play some of these volleys to give an idea how well he hits it even from this position. He can them hard from deep in the court. The third one in the clip is moving quick even in slow motion. I added a couple of backhand smashes in there too. He hits these technically well and hard.

I took these clips yesterday. He hasn't played for 4 months because he is at university these days. He's rusty but still hits his backhand volley cleanly and well. Not at its best but close enough.

He goes back to university tomorrow.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57xax3

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zp3z

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57zpua

Stotty

Volley...technique

The volley is optimally three motions simultaneously performed together to create a synergetic effect. Remember when hitting the ball in the air...less is better. Score with a combination of placement and solid contact rather than outright speed.

1. The weight is subtly shifted on to the front foot, the mark of a great volleyer...chest and shoulders over the front knee from bending at the waist.

2. Subtle rotation of shoulders rotating into the shot...imagine blocking or meeting the ball with the inside shoulder on the forehand side, or driving the front shoulder down into the ball on the backhand side.

3. Subtle arm and hand motion slightly downward to impart just enough backspin through the racquet head for control.

Really good volleyers are able to produce effective shots with motions 2 and 3 and at the same time..."stabilizing the body" as Don says, which means placing the body and racquet head in a position to form a nice wall against the approaching ball even if the front foot cannot be placed down in its optimal position. Wrong footing volleys is not necessarily wrong. Generally speaking...the more difficult the volley, the less motion. KISS.

I would like to add as a footnote here about volley, drop shot and half-volley technique, that the weight is sinking into the front foot at the same time that the racquet head is sinking into the ball. I just love it when that happens.

It's great to see your "boy" Stotty. Look at him...all grown up. You posted him in a couple of other threads...was one a forehand and one a serve. I would love to see his serve again. That was a fantastic thread...one of the many that you have posted seeking advice or stirring up conversation.

"G" looks to have a great feel for this shot. The stationary shots of him give a real sensation for the three elements of the volley that I like to emphasize. The weight transfer in particular is particularly heavy and it really contributes to the heavy feeling of the shot projected by the video camera.

I like his ability to go hard, deep and down the line on those backhand "overheads"...high volleys. I like to hit the soft acute crosscourt angle on these...from the left hand side. If you can do both your opponent has his hands full when he lobs to your backhand.

I don't care for stationary shot of volleyers and prefer to see them moving forwards to get a true idea about what the technique looks like in reality. As arturohernandez points out the backswing looks to be rather lengthy which isn't necessarily a problem. I would like to see what kind of backswing he takes when he is moving in on a heavily hit passing shot.

In my point number two I am discussing forehand volleys and in "G's" backhand I like the use of his right shoulder driving down on the ball in concert with the hand motion. Again...the hand motion seems to be rather lengthy on these still shots and I would like to see him in action. Going forwards to the net. We can see if the footwork holds up in motion too. He does a perfect job of coordinating his transfer of weight to the front foot as the racquet knifes into the ball in the still shot.

Once again...thanks for posting. Why don't you include the locations of your other threads that you posted just for the fun of it. Surely we would love to see his serve again. At least I would.

I don't see anything of an anomaly. I give up...what do you have on your mind?

[klacr]

tennis_chiro and don_budge have given some nice thoughts on the volley. The underscore duo can always wax poetic about volleys.

tennis_chiro thanks for sharing the videos!

Stotty's son backswing does not bother me too much as long as he can consistently get to the ball at the right contact point, which he seems to be able to do. So no harm no foul. That is something he is skilled enough to do, most players are not.

The clip of the Henman volley is perfect. Minimal backswing as he approaches and gets that low volley. Many players are used to and taught groundstrokes first so their dependence on a backswing, at least what they think is a backswing permeates into their volleys as well.

The reason I believe many top players still take a high backswing/steep approach to their volleys is similar to the slice backhand. In the pro game the ball is being hit much harder and with more rpms and so they feel it is necessary to approach it in that way. I'm not saying its right or wrong but just what they feel.

A volley is a transition shot. I never have my players start 3 feet away from the net, I always start them one step behind the service line and have them move in. If you can learn to hit volleys from the service line (you get high, low and half volleys from there) you can hit a volley from anywhere else. They never have to stay on the service line as their momentum will hopefully nudge them forward and closer to net. I turn the volley into a transitional shot and point, not just dead ball feeding. If a player has to hit more than 3 volleys in a regular point, they are probably in trouble.

As for the "anomaly" in scotty's kin backhand volley, I'm not sure. I don't see anything that I would consider an anomaly. I notice he does use his left hand on the grip, which is lower than I like. I keep my left hand braced on the upper throat/bottom of the racquet face for a bit more stability and feel. I find the lower the non dominant hand the more I lose feeling of the racquet face's location so I choke up on the racquet much higher. I have large hands so two hands can't really fit on my grip comfortably and I can span across the racquet face width with no problem from pinky tip to thumb tip.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Thanks for these terrific posts. In a forum that's been lacking any meaningful activity of late, it's a breath of fresh air to get something decent underway. Contributors with real knowledge have become a rarity, especially with volleys.

I focused on shoulder-high volleys when I shot the clips of my son. I would liked to have filmed low volleys and some approach work, but we didn't have a hitting partner available, just the machine. But have no fear he's very good in the low volley department also. He can hit low volleys with minimum racket work and with skill. He has the whole package. It's transitioning I would like him to improve at. And don't worry, if the thread proves meaningful, which it has already, we can always revisit when he's back from university in March.

I will certainly be working through tennis_chiro's videos.

The big upside to my son's shoulder-high volley is he plays the shot largely from the shoulder. He doesn't wrist pump or anything like that. He uses his body well. A couple of those volleys he's playing from well outside the service line, almost no man's land, yet he can still really penetrate. Not many players can do that. Of course, he has to take more backswing from that position, that's normal, there is no other way. Even the very best would have to do that. I have partnered four players who played at Wimbledon in my life and my son hits a shoulder-high volley as well as any of them. He can do it consistently, not just now and again.

With shoulder-high volleys you simply have to carve down the way I see it. Low volleys or medium height volleys are an entirely different story. I realise that. Volleys are varied in nature, in the way they come in, and a volleyer needs to be versatile.

I think the carving down element is more technology induced. A key difference between the classic versus modern is classic tennis demands the racket is on edge much of the time. On ground shots the racket is on edge on the take back and the forward swing, seldom do we see dog pat. Modern rackets afford far more 'carving down' than the old wooden rackets, and today's players take advantage of that, and why not.

But here's a talking point....

Federer and Henman, for example,, when they hit similar height backhand volleys, have more of a break in the elbow as they initiate the take back, Federer especially has. Don Brosseau does. My son keeps his arm in a more or less fixed position throughout the backswing through to contact. It's constant. He doesn't break the elbow that tiny bit more when the take back starts.

My son's method isn't uncommon. I am not concerned. Plenty of tour players, past and present, have used the technique my son uses. But there are two problems with my son's method: it's not ideal for playing balls out of the body, and you don't want to be late on the ball.

I do feel, however, having the ability to break a bit more at the elbow, as and when required, is a useful asset. Certainly on low volleys and volleys where it might be advantageous to cut inside; the two areas where you want the racket to do much of the work, and effortlessly. Volleys like these are played by simply moving the racket forwards with virtually no backswing and no downward motion. I think tennis_chiro's take on classic technique versa modern technique is interesting and we need to plough into that topic for sure.

I also think having a little more of a break in the elbow when then shot initiates can make it quicker to get to the end of the backswing. It's tough to do it my son's way when the ball is coming in real quick. I deliberately didn't edit a volley he missed because I wanted to show him late on that particular shot.

As I know my son's game better than anyone, I thought it would be interesting to see what others on the forum spot, plus someone may spot something I haven't. Nothing breeds complacency like familiarity after all, especially in coaching.

Stotty

[stotty]

It's great to see your "boy" Stotty. Look at him...all grown up. You posted him in a couple of other threads...was one a forehand and one a serve. I would love to see his serve again. That was a fantastic thread...one of the many that you have posted seeking advice or stirring up conversation.

"G" looks to have a great feel for this shot. The stationary shots of him give a real sensation for the three elements of the volley that I like to emphasize. The weight transfer in particular is particularly heavy and it really contributes to the heavy feeling of the shot projected by the video camera.

I like his ability to go hard, deep and down the line on those backhand "overheads"...high volleys. I like to hit the soft acute crosscourt angle on these...from the left hand side. If you can do both your opponent has his hands full when he lobs to your backhand.

I don't care for stationary shot of volleyers and prefer to see them moving forwards to get a true idea about what the technique looks like in reality. As arturohernandez points out the backswing looks to be rather lengthy which isn't necessarily a problem. I would like to see what kind of backswing he takes when he is moving in on a heavily hit passing shot.

In my point number two I am discussing forehand volleys and in "G's" backhand I like the use of his right shoulder driving down on the ball in concert with the hand motion. Again...the hand motion seems to be rather lengthy on these still shots and I would like to see him in action. Going forwards to the net. We can see if the footwork holds up in motion too. He does a perfect job of coordinating his transfer of weight to the front foot as the racquet knifes into the ball in the still shot.

Once again...thanks for posting. Why don't you include the locations of your other threads that you posted just for the fun of it. Surely we would love to see his serve again. At least I would.

I don't see anything of an anomaly. I give up...what do you have on your mind?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x588wrt

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x588wkh

We can certainly revisit anything you want. I am not organised like you and rarely go back to retrieve threads or even know if the original clips are still uploaded. I will have all those old clips somewhere on my hard drive. I suggest a revisit in March. He hasn't played much in over a year because his degree is intensive and there are no tennis facilities close by. That was unlucky. Most universities have good facilities.

I posted his backhand volley because he always hits it well even if he doesn't play much. You can get the basic idea your end even it is not firing quite at its best. We only get the shoulder-high volley view which I know is limiting, but we can follow up later with low volleys and transitioning.

He's light on his feet at the net. He's floater, not a pumper, which is ideal for a net player, it allows greater composure.

If I had to chose between my son and Djokovic to dispatch a straight forward backhand volley at match point, I would choose my son all day long. I really mean that.

Stotty

[stotty]

Volley sequence...

http://www.optimumtennis.net/wp-cont...-technique.jpg

http://www.tennisprostrokes.net/wp-c...V-Sequence.png

http://www.procomparetennis.net/medi...1273263043.jpg

Nice high backhand volley from Pancho at 0:33 here:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/world-crown-for-gonzales/query/rosewall+volleys

Stotty

[tennis_chiro]

Volley sequence...

...

Nice high backhand volley from Pancho at 0:33 here:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/world-crown-for-gonzales/query/rosewall+volleys

Stotty

Yes, a nice HIGH backhand volley, but check the backswing on the one he hits just 4 seconds earlier and a couple Rosewall hits in this clip as well.

don

[stotty]

Yes, a nice HIGH backhand volley, but check the backswing on the one he hits just 4 seconds earlier and a couple Rosewall hits in this clip as well.

don

Yep, but look at this clip if you want to see great, old school volleys in clarity. Sedgman is amazing, but everyone could volley back then. I imagine the 1950's saw the best volleyers the game has had.

http://commerce.wazeedigital.com//li...ywords=sedgman

Stotty

[stotty]

I’ll be very curious what you think about my take on this. The critical point is I feel the correct move is forward to and behind the ball (and below it for the low ball) to be able to handle sharp returns below your knees. And if you can’t do that, there is no point in trying to serve and volley. Remember those days when we would skin our knees making a good volley? (Think Pat Cash digging out volleys against Lendl!) Don’t see that much anymore! And when the racket head gets immediately pulled up above your shoulder, it is really hard to hit a sharp ball down around your ankles.

If your son, or anyone else, really wants to be able to handle reaction volleys from a formidable ground stoker in today’s game, he needs to learn an additional skill. I think he has a great drive volley, but I’m looking for something more, … and I have a hard time finding it in even the best players in the world today. You see these skills in some of the 35 to 45 year old doubles players who are still ranked in the top 20 in the world. Most of the younger doubles standouts rely on a different set of skills, but those skills have allowed some senior citizens to hang around in the upper ranks of the doubles game much longer than would have been expected (Paes, Bhupathi, Nestor, Zimonjic, Bryans, Mirnyi). I think the lack of this skill is why the prevailing sentiment is that today’s groundies are too fast for anyone to volley; with the standard technique employed today, that’s true. But if they had the technique of a Sedgeman/Smith/Newcombe/Rosewall/Cash/Edberg it would be a different story.

Anyway, curious to hear what all of you think.

don

http://commerce.wazeedigital.com//li...ywords=sedgman

It's an interesting take on things and I can certainly see the logic of moving the racket straight to the ball in, it makes perfect sense. I am not sure you can apply it to every type of volley. I think it mostly applies to volleys from chest height and lower. I think Sedgman more than anyone illustrates your point and backs up your claim. You can see it crystal clear in the clip. A good friend of mine who was something of an authority on tennis and whose judgement I would never question, said Sedgman was the greatest volleyer ever.

He is great Sedgman. I could watch him all day. He's quick too...moves so beautifully at the net.

But yes the video clip backs up your claim 100%. All the players of that era seemed to volley that way....minimalist movement of the racket.

I also like your own clip where you are teaching the boy to do the same. The camera is situated right behind you both and you get the boy to do it wonderfully, no effort, racket straight to the ball.

Now, I wonder how many coaches identify with what you are saying and teaching. I'd wager not many. The art of teaching the volley is becoming lost.

I feel don_budge makes some excellent comments in he quoted 3 points about volleying in post 7:

1. The weight is subtly shifted on to the front foot, the mark of a great volleyer...chest and shoulders over the front knee from bending at the waist.

2. Subtle rotation of shoulders rotating into the shot...imagine blocking or meeting the ball with the inside shoulder on the forehand side, or driving the front shoulder down into the ball on the backhand side.

3. Subtle arm and hand motion slightly downward to impart just enough backspin through the racquet head for control.

I like his description also of 'making a wall against the approaching ball'. I think this conjures up a really good image for a young player learning to volley. My son found he could really identify with that image.

My son is an excellent volleyer and could become even better. Playing doubles has helped develop his volleying the most so far. In singles he will work his way into the net but mostly likes to be in an overwhelming position where he can mop up. That's just the modern way I guess. To be able to serve volley he thinks he is going to need a bigger serve, and he's right. The guys he's up against can hit the ball so bloody hard if they can latch on to it. You need a really good serve to stop them doing it.


Stotty

[stotty]

A volley is a transition shot. I never have my players start 3 feet away from the net, I always start them one step behind the service line and have them move in. If you can learn to hit volleys from the service line (you get high, low and half volleys from there) you can hit a volley from anywhere else. They never have to stay on the service line as their momentum will hopefully nudge them forward and closer to net. I turn the volley into a transitional shot and point, not just dead ball feeding. If a player has to hit more than 3 volleys in a regular point, they are probably in trouble.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

An excellent point. I have always preached the same. If a player's volleys are not technically good, they will get found out immediately when volleying from deep. If you can master that one, the rest is easy.

I do like to get students to practice the second volley too. It's good to practice gimmes and closing out. I also like them to practice the first volley, second volley, smash routine.

The best volleyer I ever coached is now in his 30s. I coached him three times a week. I spent a great deal of time teaching him to nail volleys from the service line. I use to feed him high, dead balls and taught him to move through his bodyweight through the ball to achieve greater power. I may post him in the forum at some point if he will agree to it. He also has the best serve of all the players I have taught.

Stotty