Salzy Killer Serve

[johnyandell]

I think the lower toss will work for some players, but it's not compatible with a big body turn, and also somewhat less compatible with a big knee bend. It's a trade off and a choice for the player.

[GMann]

Well, I'm relieved to hear that he at least tried it. This confirms your view that toss height is a matter of preference and people are just built differently in terms of biomechanics.

[johnyandell]

The funny thing is that Jeff experimented with all kinds of toss heights, including one much lower than the one you see here, probably about the same as Andy.

His conclusion was that he couldn't hit the ball with enough spin with the lower toss, which inevitably had to move to the left as well. His ball was flatter and easier to return and his serving percentages went down to under 50%.

[GMann]

This Superior Serve Could Be Even Be Better

Hi everyone, sorry I've been out of pocket lately, and I realize that I'm coming to this party at a very late hour; however, at the risk of restarting the heated "high toss/apex toss/Roscoe Tanner" debate, I'm willing to bet any amount of money that as outstanding as this serve motion already is, if you could get Salzy to bring his toss a little bit down to Andy Roddick's toss level, that he would automatically gain at least 10 mph more on his serve. This would speed up his motion and, as it stands now, he is losing some kinetic energy by having to wait so long until he hits it. I also believe that he wouldn't lose consistency or accuracy and that he might actually gain some on both counts with the slightly faster motion.

Make him spend about 1 hour getting used to the slightly lower toss. With his talent, his serve would be even more invincible than Roddick's. It doesn't hurt that he's left handed.

It's pretty obvious from his recent articles that Rick Macci will agree with me even though John Y. will not.

[johnyandell]

I'd have to agree that Henman's stance is too wide. I think that the key is to be able to drop the knees, have a deep bend and keep the body weight back. If the stance is too wide or in the case of a pinpoint, that doesn't happen.

The bow idea is probably a good description, but in my experience, it leads to players leaning back and trying to force that front hip out when they think they have to try to achieve it. I've helped a few high level players get out of that one. The idea in my opinion should be to try to keep the torso as straight up and down as possible--and let the change in angles come as a result of the coiling and uncoiling.

[1379]

The knee bend vs. the bow

Is Jeff's serve his main weapon ?
His motion looks awesome but I was wondering about its efficiency in match play. I guess he's deadly on the ad court against righties...

About Jeff's knee bend: I read on www.revolutionarytennis.com that the knee bend is less important than the bow position of the left side of the body (for a right handed). The guy on the site wrote that for example Henman, who has a deep knee bend, could have maximised his serve with a better bowing position. It seems that Jeff has both. What do you think John ?

I'm familiar with that site (I like it) and the article at hand. I'd argue that Jeff displays a very good bow. In my opinion the knee bend can drive the bow. If you look at the images from side view, look how far forward his hips move. Classic bow and no bending backwards at waist. I think that this forward hip movement can be found in a lot of top serves. Looking at the video archives of Henman, I see wide platform stance which makes him drag the right foot rather than use it to power the hip forward motion like Jeff does. Thus I'm not a fan of wide platform stances. I personally can't do it. The dragging seems unnatural. I do a mini step something between a platform and a pin-point.

A--

[forehand]

trying to explain

Not sure we can say that this distinction has validity. Not sure landing off balance is good for the serve or for either style of play, or that it adds "momentum." Remember the racket hits the ball.


Sampras and Rusedski landed on better balance than Roddick and they were the two great serve and volleyers of their era. It's been an issue with Jeff, since it is tough to serve and volley, and he's tried at times to shorten his landing to recover better for the next ball (when it comes back...)
I like the balanced model. Not sure if Andy would serve worse or maybe even better if he landed better.

I feel the need to explain what I meant. I don't disagree with your reply, I just feel that my post has been misread a bit.

Throwing your body more into the court adds forward momentum to your body, for sure. This can cause off-balance landings unless you are a super-athlete.

The raquet hits the ball, and maybe I was jumping to conclusions about serve speed as a result of throwing the body forwards. But intuition tells me that this would also result in more energy being directed at the ball if it is timed right. Intuition could be wrong, and this is not a big deal to me.

The on-topic part of my post was that Jeff seemed to be going a bit too much forwards, resulting in a loss of balance. (Although this might have been lost in my ramblings about serve speed )

I have struggled a little bit with going too much into the court myself, even though my delivery is a humble one compared to Jeff's It can be very difficult to change that habit (or whatever one chooses to call it), and I still struggle with maintaining good balance after the serve from time to time.

Through working on this, I've found that landing on balance wins me more points than hitting a faster serve (for whatever biomechanical reason) combined with landing off balance. Plus being balanced has a very positive effect on my sense of control, my court awareness and my confidence. It also helps me relax more.

I firmly believe that balance is vital to all tennis strokes (and how you play tennis). My impression is that this is too often overloked by recreational players.

Fred.

[johnyandell]

It's an interesting question and we experimented with it. That's just the natural strength he has in his legs, in my opinion. The one thing that I felt could still be better was sometimes the landing was too far forward in the court--and Jeff agreed that it made it harder to recover when staying back.

His shoulder is pretty damn flexible. Maybe not Pete Sampras, but as good or better than Federer in terms of the drop. I think what you are seeing is a function of the tilt of his body. If you watch all the serves you'll see him rotate that upper arm back very well.

[jr2044]

Salzy Killer Serve

Hi John:
Nice lefty serve, but a couple of things catch my eye. He has an extremely deep knee bend, more than Roddick or Federer. Could he lose some power if he loads too long? In the clips of the racket drop it seems that in the first clip he doesn't drop as well--pretty high elbow when the racket is at its furthest point in the drop.
Jody

[johnyandell]

Not sure we can say that this distinction has validity. Not sure landing off balance is good for the serve or for either style of play, or that it adds "momentum." Remember the racket hits the ball.


Sampras and Rusedski landed on better balance than Roddick and they were the two great serve and volleyers of their era. It's been an issue with Jeff, since it is tough to serve and volley, and he's tried at times to shorten his landing to recover better for the next ball (when it comes back...)
I like the balanced model. Not sure if Andy would serve worse or maybe even better if he landed better.

[stroke]

I don't think one can overemphasize what John said about the incredible level of play in men's tennis, when he said at any given time there are about 200 guys out there. I watched Youzhny defeat Nadal in the round of 8 at the US Open, and he just plain controlled the match with his groundstrokes, and his ranking is in the low 50's. Nadal was in form, he was playing his game, and it was just not good enough. I have never seen anyone do what he did to Nadal, hitting about 50 winners. More surprising to me was the way that when Nadal hit that heavy forehand crosscourt to Youzhny's one-handed backhand, implementing the stratery/pattern that he has used successfully against Federer, Youzhny was still controlling the rallies. There are certainly no easy matches at any round in men's tennis.

In response to Forehand's question about finishing posture on the serve, where someone like Fed seems to have less forward/ more upwards push, I would say that is not something to really key on. I do personally prefer Roger's relaxed/upright finish, though, to Roddick's more violent finish.

[forehand]

Forward momentum vs balance

Great serve!

I'm wondering if you can shed some light on an issue regarding the compromise between forward momentum and balance after the serve John?

I'll try to explain what I'm thinking about:

Is Jeff a natural serve an volley player (or would he be if the times were different)? The reason for asking is that he seems to be carrying a lot of forward momentum into the court.

Now, this may be a good thing for approaching the net. It would also, I presume, add some speed to the serve.

The con is obviously that it is harder to regain balance and keep a good stable posture after the serve and thus being ready for the return. In one of the videos we see his left foot coming around in an effort to stabilise.

If we use Federer as a model (going by John's excellent analysis), he seems to carry less momentum into the court. Federer would probably serve a little faster if he threw himself more into the court, but would it necesessarily be better? From an overall perspective on playing points, that is, not the serve alone. After all, he is almost always perfectly balanced.

Roddick would be an expample of a player who carries more forward momentum, I guess, and he sometimes seems to be off balance (or still recovering) when faced with deep returns.

It is a trade off, I guess, anyone have any thoughts on how to strike a balance here?

Fred

[johnyandell]

Jeff's serve is his main weapon and he has been able to use it consistently with higher serving percentages as the shape evolves. His biggest problem has been staying completely healthy--and the fact that there are about 200 guys out there at any given time who are incredible players. In the last 2-3 years, he's beaten Tursinov, Yuri Novak, Verdasco, Justin Gimelstob, Paul Goldstein, and a few others I'm forgetting.

All strokes start with ground reaction forces and so the knee bend is pretty important in my view. It's been claimed it contributes 10-20% of overall power and also reduces the load on the shoulder. My own observation is that the players with the heavier serves and a topspin component tend to have a deeper knee bend.


I have not been on the site you mentioned or read the argument about the "bow" there, so I can't comment specifically on what is said there. But I have heard the argument from other coaches and players. I've filmed a few players who tried to "create" this and they tended to lean back at the waist. If the knees bend and the tossing arm extends, the "shape" of the body should be fine automatically. If anything players should strive to stay as straight up and down in the torso as possible.

[mdhubert]

Knee bend/body bow

Is Jeff's serve his main weapon ?
His motion looks awesome but I was wondering about its efficiency in match play. I guess he's deadly on the ad court against righties...

About Jeff's knee bend: I read on www.revolutionarytennis.com that the knee bend is less important than the bow position of the left side of the body (for a right handed). The guy on the site wrote that for example Henman, who has a deep knee bend, could have maximised his serve with a better bowing position. It seems that Jeff has both. What do you think John ?

[johnyandell]

I think the average player, man or woman can try for all of these elements, though maybe some of them in less degree.

I've taught high school girls motion on this model. Some version of platform stance. But not as an extreme on the starting stance and less body turn.

Knee bend appropriate to strength. Full racket drop. Good extension. Ball slightly to the left for "weight."

but very few people put it together like Jeff.

Justine has all these elements plus that new abbreviated backswing motion. Not 100% sure what it means for her. I need to study it closer.