Interactive Forum December 2017: Cici Bellis Serve

[don_budge]

I get that there is a lot skepticism about a pro making a major commitment to revamp something as critical as a serve. But it seems to me, as a naive fan, there are some examples of pros doing this. I think Paul McNamee, who won several majors in doubles back in the day, switched from a one-handed to two-handed backhand in the midst of his career. I seem to recall reading his first hand account (unless I'm thinking of someone else) and it took him almost a year to learn the new backhand and most peers thought he was completely crazy, but the rest is history as they say. More recently, it seems Rafa has made major revisions to his serve at different points (maybe these are tweaks compared to what Cici needs). Wozniacki is also serving considerably better this past year. Again maybe just small tweaks, though it would be good to hear what the experts on this thread think.

It isn't a big deal but everyone around her will make it a big deal. She's a tennis player at a very high level. What is so difficult in teaching a proper serve motion to a player of that caliber? We all teach lesser players this motion all the time. One of the big questions is about Cici. What about her attitude? It's a question of attitude first. Secondly...what about her coach? Why hasn't this been a priority?

Modern tennis is a bit whack these days. Modern women's tennis is really lacking in direction it seems to me although to be honest I have very little/no interest. Even though, as Ed Atkinson says, it's the same game but different clothes. I guess it is fair to say that very soon I will have very little/no interest in the men's game either barring some kind of miracle.

Interesting about McNamee...I never heard that about his backhand.

[stotty]

Dr. Bruce Elliott, well known Australian biomechanist, conducted an interesting study on the female tennis serve. He presented it at an ITF conference. There were 3 study groups of high quality females based on age (1) Pre-puberty, age 10 & 11, 2) Puberty, age 14 & 15, 3) Pro, age18+). Elliott studied 1) Timing 2) Lower Limb Mechanics 3) Trunk Mechanics 4) Shoulder Mechanics 5) Arm Mechanics.

Some highlights:
1) Timing - Toss height & Trophy position - should reach trophy position when ball reaches zenith of toss. Young players toss too high, throwing off timing. GOOD TEACHING CUE - ball rises, body falls; ball falls, body rises.

2) Lower limb mechanics - a) establish leg drive early (esp. back leg) to promote hip over hip when they get stronger. b) Importance of back foot/back leg location. Proper foot position allows for later development. c) Ankle drive is important - get on balls of the feet.

3) Trunk mechanics -
a) Preparation phase - 1) Importance of rotating shoulders more than hips in backswing, better in younger group b) Establish shoulder tilt with tossing arm.
b) Propulsion Phase - 1) twist rotation is same thru age groups 2) Shoulder over shoulder increases with age. Pro's only group to blend shoulder over shoulder from ball toss height to impact.
c) Contact phase - 1) Younger girls tend to be more "square on" (twist axis) at contact, need more shoulder over shoulder (develops with age & strength). TOSS IS IMPORTANT, can be too far to right. 2) Don't emphasize "lateral tilt" too early (after puberty), can lead to injury. Lateral tilt occurs when trying to stay more sideways leading up to contact, tossing arm "tucks in" and shoulder/arm of approaches ball.

4) Shoulder mechanics - a) need leg drive up to pull racquet and arm down (external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR constant among age groups = 80* b) Internal shoulder rotation increases with age. Need to make contact on inside of hand (inward tilt of racquet vs. forearm).

5) Arm mechanics - a) elbow and wrist velocity increase with age. b) Constant 100* angle of body, shoulder, arm is IMPORTANT. If toss is too far right, you decrease angle and open too soon (too much twist axis); toss closer to hips.

3 types of movements of trunk axis -
1) Twist - shoulders rotate horizontally - same thru ages, females do well
2) Shoulder over shoulder - is the major difference between great vs. good servers; much better in males than females.
3) Extension/Flexion - wasn't used much in this study

Thanks for taking the time to post this...interesting.

I am doing a simple study at the moment involving 200 children of mixed gender and ages. All the children have to throw a tennis ball as far as they can. I have only recorded the throws of 32 children so far but already there is a significant difference between the boys and the girls. The girls are mostly very weak at throwing and cannot throw a ball nearly as far as the boys. In another few weeks I hope to have recorded the throws of all 200 children.

[tennis_chiro]

McNamee is a great example. I believe he worked at Hopmann's camp in Florida while making that change. But that kind of a commitment is very rare and requires a long term commitment. He was not considered "successful" when he made that commitment. Cici is one of the highest ranked teenagers. Someone in her camp has to take the long view and she has to buy in to it. The serve is something she could work on intensively for a couple of months and get it to a point where she would still be able to compete. Then she could continue to work on it as she played. Her performance would probably suffer a little at first, but she wouldn't be giving up much.

don

[rwiener]

I get that there is a lot skepticism about a pro making a major commitment to revamp something as critical as a serve. But it seems to me, as a naive fan, there are some examples of pros doing this. I think Paul McNamee, who won several majors in doubles back in the day, switched from a one-handed to two-handed backhand in the midst of his career. I seem to recall reading his first hand account (unless I'm thinking of someone else) and it took him almost a year to learn the new backhand and most peers thought he was completely crazy, but the rest is history as they say. More recently, it seems Rafa has made major revisions to his serve at different points (maybe these are tweaks compared to what Cici needs). Wozniacki is also serving considerably better this past year. Again maybe just small tweaks, though it would be good to hear what the experts on this thread think.

[seano]

Dr. Bruce Elliott, well known Australian biomechanist, conducted an interesting study on the female tennis serve. He presented it at an ITF conference. There were 3 study groups of high quality females based on age (1) Pre-puberty, age 10 & 11, 2) Puberty, age 14 & 15, 3) Pro, age18+). Elliott studied 1) Timing 2) Lower Limb Mechanics 3) Trunk Mechanics 4) Shoulder Mechanics 5) Arm Mechanics.

Some highlights:
1) Timing - Toss height & Trophy position - should reach trophy position when ball reaches zenith of toss. Young players toss too high, throwing off timing. GOOD TEACHING CUE - ball rises, body falls; ball falls, body rises.

2) Lower limb mechanics - a) establish leg drive early (esp. back leg) to promote hip over hip when they get stronger. b) Importance of back foot/back leg location. Proper foot position allows for later development. c) Ankle drive is important - get on balls of the feet.

3) Trunk mechanics -
a) Preparation phase - 1) Importance of rotating shoulders more than hips in backswing, better in younger group b) Establish shoulder tilt with tossing arm.
b) Propulsion Phase - 1) twist rotation is same thru age groups 2) Shoulder over shoulder increases with age. Pro's only group to blend shoulder over shoulder from ball toss height to impact.
c) Contact phase - 1) Younger girls tend to be more "square on" (twist axis) at contact, need more shoulder over shoulder (develops with age & strength). TOSS IS IMPORTANT, can be too far to right. 2) Don't emphasize "lateral tilt" too early (after puberty), can lead to injury. Lateral tilt occurs when trying to stay more sideways leading up to contact, tossing arm "tucks in" and shoulder/arm of approaches ball.

4) Shoulder mechanics - a) need leg drive up to pull racquet and arm down (external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR constant among age groups = 80* b) Internal shoulder rotation increases with age. Need to make contact on inside of hand (inward tilt of racquet vs. forearm).

5) Arm mechanics - a) elbow and wrist velocity increase with age. b) Constant 100* angle of body, shoulder, arm is IMPORTANT. If toss is too far right, you decrease angle and open too soon (too much twist axis); toss closer to hips.

3 types of movements of trunk axis -
1) Twist - shoulders rotate horizontally - same thru ages, females do well
2) Shoulder over shoulder - is the major difference between great vs. good servers; much better in males than females.
3) Extension/Flexion - wasn't used much in this study

[arturohernandez]

Do you think it might be specialization at too early an age?

I don't think shockingly bad serves are just an American problem.

Are they?

[alexander28]

She has an inside swing line at the beginning of the serve so it goes all wrong after that.Not impressed with the american coaches,sorry like americans but shockingly bad.

[arturohernandez]

I agree. But I just saw my daughter play a one day tournament and come out the champion of the consolation (i.e. back) draw. Besides pacing back and forth and shaking during the final while watching a hard fought match I also noticed another thing.

The boys were serving bigger than the girls. That is not surprising.

But I do wonder if there is something about upper body strength and its development.

Also, I get the sense that the boys were just trying to outmuscle each other.

There were two 18 year old boys just ripping the ball next to my daughter during her final match.

All the girls even at 18 were simply getting the serve in with little or no pace.

Granted, this is the challenger level of the USTA sanctioned junior tournaments in Texas (the lowest of the point oriented ranking levels).

But still the serve just didn't seem as important and just getting it in was not really a liability for the girls.

And at 12 or even 14, a big serve is just not in the cards.

So I wonder if seeing what I saw most coaches just make it good enough.

Then they turn to all the other things that make better junior girls.

And all those other things are things CiCi Bellis HAS developed.

This is not my attempt to say that girls cannot serve better.

Just that the advantages may not be as obvious at younger ages for girls as they are for boys.

[tennis_chiro]

...
I am a huge fan of Welby but feel the more advanced elements of a serve are relatively easy once a correct, simple foundation is established.

Talented, committed and dedicated advanced players can have a helluva time trying to correct fundamental flaws in their service motions that someone should have insisted were corrected when they were much younger. Developmental coaches need to insist on a few fundamentals, but there is still too much emphasis on the wrong things and too little agreement on what really is a necessary fundamental.

don

[stotty]

The basic serve is the easiest to learn and the advanced serve is the hardest.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ing_serve.html

I am not sure Welby was right when he said this. It probably isn't true. I would actually be inclined to reverse that statement. See if you can get your daughter serving like the girl in the first clip in Welby's article: synchronised start, correct and fluent swing path, nicely positioned elbow, composed finish. While a percentage of players might find it easy (indeed your daughter might) many don't find it easy at all, particularly girls.

I think there are two very important phases in a serve. The first is how it is initiated...the arms should synchronise well and tie in perfectly with the knee bend. I feel this is absolutely critical if you are going to get this....

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tLevelRear.mov

....the player leaving the ground at the perfect time for the drive up. If you can synch the drive up perfectly you can deliver a hefty serve. I am working with a 9 year-old at the moment and am now very close to achieving these elements.

I am a huge fan of Welby but feel the more advanced elements of a serve are relatively easy once a correct, simple foundation is established.

[tennis_chiro]

Yes, Arturo, it's Delavaut. I couldn't remember his name. I enjoy his presentations. Very good.

As for the figure 8, using the weighted racket and the feet-together-forward version will get your daughter to focus on the body action as opposed to getting ahead a little with her arm. It could also help her get the feel of keeping that left foot down on the ground and avoiding the foot fault.

don

[arturohernandez]

One last thing. I think the Oscar Borras video was narrated by Christophe Delavaut who used to run Tennis Oxygen.

I think that Nadal shows why he is a champion. He was willing to do whatever it took to be better.

I really hope that Cici Bells takes a similar approach as a better serve would most likely help her ranking significantly.

It also shows the point made in the old article on the serve posted on Tennisplayer.net.

The basic serve is the easiest to learn and the advanced serve is the hardest.

[arturohernandez]

Yes, I looked up the figure 8 and I understand exactly how that drill would help her. I'll do some filming today so that maybe people can see how the figure 8 helps her and how she adapts to it as she serves.

I have seen Thiem do this kind of exaggerated finish that looks like the figure 8 drill when he warms up his serve.

My sense is that she is a bit too army in general. And I have the feeling that the figure 8 has been discussed here or elsewhere as a kind of universal movement common to all tennis strokes.

So I will also use it to help her with her groundstrokes which are too army in order to connect them to the rest of her body.

Thanks Don!

[tennis_chiro]

A couple of things to think about:

Nice start, but Stotty has identified some key things that need to change. I want to try to point out some things a little different.

I don’t think her throwing mechanics are very good. Too much emphasis on the leg thrust and not enough development of a good basic throwing motion. Hips, then shoulders, then arm. I address this with the Figure 8 drill, in particular, the Figure 8-with-feet-together-forward version I’ve mentioned before.

As for the elbow being too high, I would have her do Figure 8’s with a slightly weighted racket (1/2 to 1 lb in the head). With the heavier racket, the body naturally adopts a more efficient way to swing the racket back and eliminates the high elbow. I think she would probably need to do a little work with the “Hiccup”, but she is still pretty young. It should not take as much work as it took for my student in an earlier post.

Left hand - she needs to pull that left hand in to her chest/abdomen as she swings up.

Foot fault: she needs to put more weight on the left foot during the toss and she would be unable to step into that foot fault. For me, that greater weight transfer to the front foot earlier is a critical element of a good, consistent toss.

Special thought for discussion: check the angle in the Navratilova video between her forearm and the shaft of the racket in the trophy position (when the angle between the upper and lower arms gets to about 90 degrees. Martina is perfectly straight. Checking other serves, you won’t find that very common, but you will find that at the point when the upper and lower arms make that 90 degree angle (just before the real acceleration to the impact), the racket shaft does not point very much forward as it does for your daughter. When the racket shaft is vertical, the racket feels lighter to the server because of the reduced lever arm around the elbow. I looked at Sampras, Agassi, Krajicek, Serena and Roger for comparisons. The straight 180 degree angle that Navratilova demonstrates is unusual, but you can see that the racket head “fires” from a point where the forearm and upper arm have reached that 90 degree angle and the racket head is rarely pointed as much forward as it is with your daughter.

We get additional power from the leg drive by the kinetic chain storing that power in additional External Shoulder Rotation (but of course there are limits). We also get additional ESR from the drop of the racket from its highest point (of the racket head) to the lowest point of the “pro drop” (“pro drop” is where the racket is basically parallel to the spine and the butt of the racket is pointed up at the ball in the same plane as the target). If the racket has gone too far forward before the real acceleration of the racket head starts, you are not going to get as much ESR from the racket drop to the “pro drop” position. Navratilova’s full 180 degree angle between forearm and upper arm gives her a little greater drop into ESR; unfortunately, she appears to be a little light on ISR from that point.

Roddick:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andyroddick/ar_serve/ar_arm_action/ar_arm_action.html?AR1stSDeuceArmActionSide.mp4

Check the point from which he really accelerates where the shaft of the racket is vertical in the trophy position. See the ideal straight line from left shoulder to right elbow.

Becker has the racket head just a little further forward, but basically same thing:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_1st_serve/bb_1st_serve.html?BB1stSDeuceSide1.mov

Serena lets the head of the racket get a little further forward, but notice the excellent ISR:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_serve/sw_arm_action/sw_arm_action.html?SW1stSDeuceArmActionSide1.mov

Agassi has a little bit of a high elbow on the backswing, but more of the same. Also, he is a little light on ISR

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_serve/aa_arm_action/aa_arm_action.html?AA1stSDeuceArmActionSide2.mov

Sampras comes up a little more from the side, but look at the position in the trophy where the shaft is vertical. The racket head doesn’t get much forward of his elbow in the backswing
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...rmActionSide.m ov

Roger Federer - check the position where the forearm/upper arm angle gets to 90 degrees and the racket shaft is vertical:
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1stSDeuceArmAc tionSide.mov

One of my favorites: Richard Krajicek:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

And for classics, Pancho Gonzales:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeCourtlevelSide.mov

don

[stotty]

Thanks everyone! I will note all this advice and work with him over Christmas break.

Interesting that the arm comes up too much as tennis_chiro noted. As you will see below this might be overemphasized in working on serves with my kids.

I agree with Stotty. His ball has serious action on it. It is not super fast but is so heavy and even though I have returned it a thousand times I have to really focus on a very long finish. If I try to rip it at all I shank.

He is only 5' 6" and at 18 may not grow much so he is kind of trying to get up as much as possible. I'll work with him on trying to toss a bit more in the court.

Since everyone did such a good job with my son. Here is my 12 year old daughter. Not as natural a server for sure. There are some flaws apparent to me but mostly I have been working on her rhythm FOREVER.

She HATES to miss. So half the battle is getting her to go for it and be more aggressive. She used to cry all the time if she missed a ball when she was younger.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-m0...ew?usp=sharing

I think my daughter is following don_budge's advice here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10-f...ew?usp=sharing

At 12 I am not quite ready for her to try and hit her fastest serve, although we do throwing drills and we also do stepping drills and serving from the back fence to get her to hit out as much as possible.

Right now she seems to be going up (kind of like my son) more than forward.

Any additional advice is greatly appreciated!

Not bad...she's just 12 so plenty to analyse. Her serve is so typical of so many girls.

She does have a good racket drop and her arm, hand, racket rotations seem ok (be nice to see these from the rear).

Like your son, her elbow is high...a bit too high. At her age, it could very easily go higher still...so be careful. It is quite easy to correct this on child this young.

As she commences the swing her racket head very quickly starts to point upwards. It's so nice if a 'trailing' racket head can be introduced. Navratilova did this beautifully...as does Roger. With Navratilova, we see her racket head pointing down towards the court as she releases the ball from her hand. With your daughter, at the same point, her racket head is stuck up pointing at the sky...much less ideal in my view.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...DeuceRear1.mov

Henin's racket head is closer to your daughters at release but still nowhere near as vertical. I much prefer Martina's. It creates better lag.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...LevelSide1.mov

I would have her keep her platform stance throughout like Martina. Your daughter seems to scissor kick forwards after contact rather than kicking back. Having your daughter hold her stance throughout for a while might help here. Again Martina gives a text book example of what the rear leg should do after impact...as does Henin.

Other obvious things are...don't foot fault! And look at the target area prior to serving. She is a little too sideways and needs to twist her torso to face the net prior to commencing the serve serving. At her age, I would maybe have the rear foot more behind directly behind the front foot to assist this. She can go more side-saddle later down the line.

It's so good to have good juniors to analyse on the forum. I wish more people would do it.